Show Notes

Dave Rose Agency: https://www.deepsouthentertainment.com/

Dave Rose on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@daverosedeepsouth

Dave Rose on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/daverosedeepsouth/ 

A Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/book

A Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1

A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4

A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Dave Rose:

I'm so amazed that people pay me to do this. I was doing it long before I knew you could make money at it. And so the pinnacle for me is really that this continued joy of the business of music

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to. What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. And today I got a special guest for you. Musicians out there. You don't deserve any of this. This is a wonderful treat for all of you. Don't say I never gave you anything. I'm here with Dave Rose from Deep South Entertainment and he is a career music manager. But Dave, first of all, welcome. I got a billion questions for you, but did you start off, are you a musician as well?

Dave Rose:

Thank you. Good to be here, Michael. Man, mutual admiration all the way around. This is exciting to be here. But yes, I started out as a musician. I was a, yes, I started out as a musician. I mean, yes and no, there's a story, but I became a musician out of necessity.

Michael Jamin:

How does that work? No one becomes, that's like the last thing you become out of necessity.

Dave Rose:

I know. Isn't that funny? So I was managing, and I very much put that in air quotes. Say I was a freshman in college and I had a local band decide they wanted me to be their manager. I was showing up at all their gigs and selling merchandise and unloading the van and doing all the things that I thought I could do to help. I just loved being around music. One day they said to me, would you be our manager? And I didn't know what the hell a manager was. I still don't. But they said, well, you could start by getting us some gigs. And that's not what a manager does, by the way. But that's when you're in college, that's what you do.

Michael Jamin:

That's not what a manager does then. Okay, you have to elaborate on that when we

Dave Rose:

Can get into that for sure. So I got 'em 20 gigs and we had it all booked up and we're all ready to go. And we were two weeks out from the very first gig, big string of shows, playing skate ranches and pool parties and all the places that you play when you're just starting out anywhere and everywhere that'll give you room. And they came me and they said, our bass player quit and he's moving, so we need to cancel these gigs and we can no longer, we will audition new bass players later. I said, like, hell, you are, I've been watching this. It doesn't look like it's that hard to play bass, so here's what we're going to do. I'm going to cram myself in the basement with you, Mr. Guitar player, and you're going to teach me all the parts to these songs.

We're going to go play these 20 shows with me as the bass player, and when we come back, you can audition bass players. That's how. And they were like, yeah, that's not how that works. I said, well, that's the way this is going to go. And so they did. I crammed myself in the basement and learned to play bass in two weeks, and it was rock and roll. It was three chord rock and roll. Wasn't real hard, but apparently I picked it up pretty easily and I played bass in a band for the next 10 years, but that should have been my first indication that I was not a musician. I learned how to play just to keep a band.

Michael Jamin:

But you must, if you played for 10 years, you're good enough.

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I mean I figured it out along the way.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. But then at some point you went to full-time management.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. Yeah. I ultimately segued into full-time management, and that was, I started this company putting out compilation CDs. That was a big thing. I started in 1995 and in the mid nineties, these sort of mix tape CDs were a big thing. And I would find local and regional bands from around the area and put 'em on this compilation CD and put it out and see what happens. But from the very first CD we put out, we had one of the biggest hits of the nineties, a song called Sex and Candy by Marcy Playground. And my intention was I would stick my band right in the middle of all these big regional bands or bands that I thought was going to be big and maybe my band would get some attention too. And I think nine bands on that first compilation got record deals accept my band. So that was kind of my moment of realizing, yeah, I'm definitely not, I'm way better on the business side of things.

Michael Jamin:

So then tell me then what a manager music manager does exactly if they don't get you work.

Dave Rose:

Sure. It's very different, I would guess, than in the film and TV business. And I would love to learn this from you, but I'm guessing in the film and TV business, the person that gets you work is the agent. Is that

Michael Jamin:

Yes, the agent and not the manager and I have Right,

Dave Rose:

And that's what it is here. So a manager in music, I'm put it in the simplest terms, but it's like if the entire career is a wheel, the manager and the artist are in the center of that wheel. And all these spokes are things like booking agents and publicists and record labels and publishing companies and people that do film and TV music and all the accountants, the crew, all the thing, the attorneys that make the machine, the wheel turn. The manager is making sure all of those things are working. So it's sort of like being, I compare it to this, it's being the CEO of a band, but if you're,

Michael Jamin:

I'm sorry, go on.

Dave Rose:

That's all right. The band is owned by the band or the artist is owned by the, they own their company, but they retain an artist manager commission, an artist manager to manage their career.

Michael Jamin:

But if that band is going on tour, are you expected to go with them?

Dave Rose:

Only if you're in country music.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. Why is that?

Dave Rose:

It is different. Country music is one of the few genres that still very much lives and dies by the radio, and so the relationships with local radio is very important. So a manager should be there to kind of nurture those radio relationships from town to town to town. Now, if you're in rock and roll or hip hop or almost any other genre, Americana folk bluegrass, most managers do not travel with the band,

Michael Jamin:

But a touring manager would No,

Dave Rose:

A tour manager. Exactly. A tour manager does. And the tour manager is exactly, it sounds, it's the manager of the tour. So it deals with getting the bus from point A to point B and where do we park and what do I mean? It's way more than that, but it's the finance of the tour and they report to the artist manager.

Michael Jamin:

Now over the years, I've heard you mention this, you have a very, very big it's successful TikTok page, which is how I found you. You've managed a bunch of really big acts, right?

Dave Rose:

I've had some, yes. I've had a lot of, and I still do have a lot of big acts. It's been just amazing. I keep waiting for somebody to knock on my door and go, okay, gigs up. Time to get a real job.

Michael Jamin:

Can you share some of 'em with us?

Dave Rose:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I got my start with Marcy Playground, and I'm still with them 26, 7 years later. But one of my first big clients was the piano player, Bruce Hornsby, who was in the Grateful Dead, and he had a bunch of hits in the eighties and nineties, but he's had a very, very unique career. He is done albums with Ricky Scaggs and Jazz Records, but Little Feat, the classic rock band of, they're just so iconic. The band Lit who had one of the biggest rock hits of the nineties, that song, my Own Worst Enemy, some of the country acts that I've worked with, Laney Wilson, who just won a Grammy, and yeah, I worked with the band six Pence, none The Richer who had the mega hit Kiss Me. And so yeah, it's been not to just, one of the bands I've been with the longest 23 years is an eighties rock band from LA called Striper. They kind of came up in the ranks with Moley Crewe and Bon Jovi and that kind world of big hair and Sunset Strip and all the things of Hollywood, but they're a Christian man. They sing about Jesus. So they're very, very different than that.

Michael Jamin:

At this point. Are new bands finding you or are you reaching out to them? How does that work?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, they usually find me at this point, I don't develop a lot of new acts anymore, mostly because I've just been doing it a long time and developing a new act from garage to Grammy is not only risky, but it's a long runway. And when you've been sort of doing it for as long as I have, and I don't mean any disrespect to anything on this, but you don't need to take that risk anymore.

Michael Jamin:

But it seems like on TikTok, it seems like you're talking to those people.

Dave Rose:

I am taking my audience on TikTok is very much the audience that is sort of just trying to figure out the next steps of a very complicated career path.

Michael Jamin:

But then why are you talking to them now if that's not, I assume it's because that's what you're looking for, but No,

Dave Rose:

Yeah, no, that's a great question. The reason I'm doing it is very pure, because it is hard to do this, and there's a lot of bad advice flying around out there. And to some extent, I wanted to get on there and level the playing field and just let people know the reality of how the business works. No, I'm not at all seeking to manage sort of startup band. I do some coaching that I'm more than willing to help them in. I'll do these 30 minute sessions where I can really, really fast track things for them, help them avoid years and years of mistakes in a very quick conversation. It's a lot like the stuff that you do in the sense that I'll meet an artist from Topeka, Kansas or wherever and how they're learning stuff that they would not learn anywhere else, only because nobody's ever told 'em.

See Michael, something I think we ought to talk about at some point in here is part of why it's difficult to get a manager in the music business is because of how a manager gets paid. Okay, how did they get paid? I think that's an interesting dynamic that a lot of just, certainly a lot of people, but even a lot of artists don't know how that works. So how does that work then? Yeah, so a manager is paid by commission, so it's strictly a commission base. So if you are an artist and you go out and you play a show or you sell a T-shirt or make some sort of income, a percentage of that income is paid to your manager, includes the record deal, includes everything. It typically includes, and sort of depending on where you are in that artist's career, it includes most every aspect of their entertainment career, including what about royalties?

It does include royalties, particularly if those royalties were ones that you helped them earn. If you get them a record deal and they continue to earn royalties either through radio play or whatever, you would earn a commission on that. So you're earning commissions on these revenue streams, and that's typically about 15%. So if you think about managing, like we talked about the wheel, all those different spokes in the wheel, maybe for each act that I manage, that's probably 150 decisions a day that we're making on behalf of that artist. So you can't manage a lot of acts as an individual. You can have a company like we do that manages, has managers that manage acts, but generally speaking, you can't manage a lot of acts. There's a lot that goes into a typical day of that. So the commission, if you just break it down to making a living, an artist has to be making significant money for it to be worth that manager's time to spend the bulk of their day managing their career.

So when you've got an artist that's just starting out, and I want to get to why it's hard to get advice when you've got an artist that's just starting out and they're making no money and are making very little money, I don't know, 20, 30, 40, $50,000 a year, you think about that 15% of that is $5,000 a year maybe for the manager. So it's really not enough to say, I'm going to dedicate my life to you, which is really what it takes. So as a result, it's almost impossible for an artist to meet a manager. It's really hard to meet a manager. Our time is paid by commission. So that's why I get on TikTok and talk about the things I talk about because I was that bass player in a band not knowing what the hell I was doing, making every mistake under the sun. And I'm very, I don't know, very genuinely just trying to help people not make those mistakes.

Michael Jamin:

Now, you said something a while ago on one of your tiktoks, and I was surprised you don't come down. I thought everyone was supposed to hate Spotify and streaming because of the way, in my opinion, in my point of view, artists are being raped. I mean, that's how I see it. But you don't feel that way?

Dave Rose:

I don't. I mean, do I think it's a fair payment system? No, I think there's a lot of improvement that needs to happen. Part of what I think is the imbalance is the payments between an artist, a songwriter, and the record label. You see, when a song is on Spotify, those are the three main parties that sort of have to get paid a record label, an artist and a songwriter. And the songwriters are the ones that are really struggling in this time.

Michael Jamin:

From what I pay on what people pay on Spotify, I gladly pay double for what? I mean, I get every album I want to listen to at any time through the month, almost anything. And if I pay double, I still feel like the artists wouldn't be making not even close to what they used to make.

Dave Rose:

Well, yes. Again, we got to remember, there's three buckets. We're dealing with the artist, the record label, and the songwriter. And in some cases, that's the same person in all three of those buckets. If you go out and self-release a record, and you've written that record and you performed on that record, and you do millions and millions of streams on that record, you're making very respectable.

Michael Jamin:

I thought, again, I come at this completely ignorant. I know so little about it, but I think I saw a video by Snoop Dogg saying his album was streamed a billion times and he made 10 Sense or something.

Dave Rose:

That's a famous video. That video circulated a lot. And what is missed most often in that conversation is the difference in those three buckets. My gut tells me, and I don't know Snoop Dogg's complete history, but he probably does not own that recording. So a big chunk of that money that's being earned probably went to his record label, and I don't know, maybe he wrote the song, maybe he didn't, if he didn't write the song, he's missing that bucket of income, or maybe he did write this. So my gut tells me there's more to that story. So

Michael Jamin:

Misunderstand this, which is fine.

Dave Rose:

I dunno, the full snoop do the inner workings of his business, but my gut tells me there's more to that story because I know no shortage of independent artists making a great, great living, really. But the thing that's different, and the thing that we got to think about that's different from say 2005, say 20 years ago, the biggest difference is the revenue streams now are very multiple. I mean, I met a band the other day that's doing insane six figures just on YouTube.

Michael Jamin:

On YouTube ad. So they put their music and they make ads on YouTube. Exactly, because they're not selling

Dave Rose:

It. That's right. The ad revenue is making four members a living, a very good living.

Michael Jamin:

See, it was my impression that, okay, so 20 years ago, a band would go on tour and after the show, they'd sell okay, merch, but they'd also sell the cd. If you want to listen to music, they sell. But now no one's going to buy that cd.

Dave Rose:

They do. They very much buy, well, more so they buy vinyl. The vinyl buy vinyl. And what's crazy, I was just on the phone with a head of a record label and he was talking about the rapid increase in the number of cassettes they're selling, which is crazy. It's just such a, I tell people this all the time, but you can't autograph a stream, so you're going to always need to have something that people can take home. I mean, I read the other day of all the vinyls sold only like 37% get listened to, but vinyl cells are through the roof, really. They buy the product, they get it autographed, they keep it as a collector's item, and then they stream it on Spotify.

Michael Jamin:

But why do you feel vinyl as opposed to a cd, which is just vinyl, but smaller and better quality? Why is that?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I think CDs, I mean, also depending on the genre, certain genres are very cd, like country. People still buy CDs. If you go into a Walmart and rural America, you're going to see a lot of country in there. But yeah, I think vinyl partially because it's just big and cool to hold, and

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you right, because not a lot of people have record. A lot of people don't even how to use a record like we do, but

Dave Rose:

Yeah. Well, I mean you'd really be surprised, Michael. The vinyl industry is insanely huge.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Dave Rose:

And really among kids, I mean, the kids are buying vinyl. If you go into an Urban Outfitters, which is obviously geared toward 20 somethings, they have a whole record section in there, whole vinyl section in their stores, and they sell record players at Urban Outfitters.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right. I always thought that was ironic. I didn't realize that they're making money that way. I know. I thought they were museum pieces.

Dave Rose:

Well, probably to some they are. Wow. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Now, do you specialize in any kind of genre of music or does that matter to

Dave Rose:

You? I'm a rock and roll guy at heart, but I've done a lot of work in sort of songwriter rock. I've certainly had my share of country acts, although it's not my preferred genre, I've not done a lot in bluegrass, and I've not done a lot in hip hop, which is strange because if this is a visual thing, I'm staring at a Tupac Black behind me. So I say I don't really work in hip hop, but then I got to Tupac Black up here.

Michael Jamin:

I have a question for you. I don't think you're going to be able to answer this one. I don't know if there's an answer. Probably

Dave Rose:

Not.

Michael Jamin:

So Daryl Hall has a show that I happen to catch sometimes. I think he shoots in his basement or something. You must've seen it, where he brings in friends, like eighties stars or whatever, Darryl's

Dave Rose:

House,

Michael Jamin:

Darryl's house, and he looks cool. He's got a blazer on, he's got dark glasses, and I'm like, okay, he looks cool. But then sometimes he brings in other men his age, which is whatever, 70, whatever it is, I don't know. And they're dressed and they're stars from the eighties, and they're dressed like they used to dress in the eighties. I wonder, how are aging rockstar supposed to dress? Do you have to answer this to your clients? You

Dave Rose:

Talk about this. Oh, yeah. We talk about, I mean, I tell artists this all the time, including my big artists. The biggest mistake you can make with a tire fashion, whatever you want to call it, is to not talk about it. You have to talk about it. A matter of fact, I recommend a band sometimes, particularly new bands, take a night and don't bring your instrument, get in a room together and talk about what you want This look to look like. It is so incredibly important and,

Michael Jamin:

But do you have an opinion on what it should be then? Should it stay what it was, or should it evolve?

Dave Rose:

I think it's interesting, like this eighties band striper that I talked about that I manage from the eighties, that it's the same guys 40 years later. Back in the day, there was a lot of hair and makeup and spandex pants and all the things that, and so no, they don't wear that anymore, and they don't wear the makeup and the teased hair, but they do an age appropriate version of that rock and roll gear and rock. It

Michael Jamin:

Seems weird because the fans are coming to see their band. The fans don't want the band to age, but unfortunately the band aged.

Dave Rose:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

How do you give them what they want? It seems like, it seems like a really hard thing to struggle with.

Dave Rose:

It is. It's a tough thing. And the good ones, the ones that are really good at this, are good at sort of making fun of the, well, sort of making the audience one with them and sort of we're all aging together and this is welcome to us 40 years later. What I think we don't want is our aging rock stars to show up in sweatpants and a hoodie. We want 'em to show up at least caring and some resemblance of days gone by without being a carbon copy of that, because you shouldn't try to be,

Michael Jamin:

For the most part though, I imagine they're playing whatever their greatest hits, the songs that made them big, and the people, the fans, that's what they want to hear. And I imagine if I were a musician who's played the same song 30,000 times, I might get tired of this.

Dave Rose:

You would think, and here's what happens to a lot of them. Some do, yeah. They usually don't get tired of it. They get tired of being known only for that. There are some artists that have two or three mega hits so big you can't even compare. And as a result, there's no way for their catalog of deep catalog of hundreds of songs to sort of surface. It's why the band little feat that I worked with, they never really had a radio hit, and they always talked about the best thing that ever happened to us was never having a radio hit because we never had this super high. Instead, our fans consume our entire catalog. It's a little bit like the Grateful Dead in that sense. Grateful Dead never had this mega hit. They just had a lifestyle.

Michael Jamin:

Do they complain to you about this, though? Is this something they talk about?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I mean, one thing that's interesting is when you're on stage and you're playing a 60, 75 minutes set or whatever, and you're playing songs from your catalog, one thing that you don't think about a lot, but when they hit that big hit, when they go into playing that big song that everybody knows of any song in that, it's almost like it's for them, it's a welcomed break in the set. Meaning when you're playing a new song, you're sort of working really hard to try to win this audience over on this new material or this unfamiliar material. So maybe if you're a rock band, you're probably moving around a little more. If you're whatever kind of band you are, you're just really giving it all to win over this crowd. But when you kick into a mega hit that they've heard a million times over, it's a moment you can just breathe.

Michael Jamin:

I see.

Dave Rose:

And go, okay, I'm good for three and a half minutes here. They're going to go nuts. No matter what we do.

Michael Jamin:

I would not have thought of. That's interesting you brought that up. I would not have thought it, but I would've thought it the other way around that like, oh, fuck, I got to play this again. But

Dave Rose:

No. Yeah, no. I do have a few artists that feel that way. One of my favorite moments in that regard was Sean Colvin. She's a kind of a folk songwriter artist, and she did end up having a big hit called Sonny Came Home, and that came out, I guess in the, I'm going to get the dates wrong, but that was a huge hit. Sonny came home and I went and saw Sean Colvin one night in concert, and she comes out on stage packed amphitheater, and she says, we're going to go ahead and play this song for those of you that just came to hear this, so you can go ahead and leave and the rest of us can have a good time.

Michael Jamin:

Is that what happened though?

Dave Rose:

That's why she opened the show when Sonny came home, and then what happened? I'm paraphrasing what she said there, but it was generally that for those of you that just came to hear the hit, let's play it. You can go about the way and sort of the implication was the rest of us who came to hear the entire catalog can now enjoy the show. Do

Michael Jamin:

You think people walked out? I mean,

Dave Rose:

Nobody left nobody. I was there. Nobody left. And that's a bold move. Yeah. I love that about her. And that's kind of the way a lot of artists feel about a big hit is like they don't dislike it. They love what it's brought to their career. They just dislike it being the only thing people may want to consume.

Michael Jamin:

I think about art, and you must have these conversations with your artists is like, how do you reinvent yourself on the next album when audience, your audience doesn't really want you to reinvent you. They want what they have, but if you give 'em the same, it's also like, yeah, we already have this. It seems so incredibly daunting to come up with another album that works,

Dave Rose:

Man. It is. And I got to say, in your world, I would think the same thing. How do you write the next episode given the audience what they want, but still keeping it

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's when they get mad at you. That's when they say the shows jumped the shark. Or they say, the show died four years ago. Jump

Dave Rose:

The Shark. Is that a

Michael Jamin:

Term? Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. You haven't heard it. That refers to an episode of Happy Days when Henry Winkler, they put him on water skis and he had to jump a shark tank. I remember

Dave Rose:

That.

Michael Jamin:

And he was wearing a leather jacket when you saw Fonzi jumping a Shark tank in a leather jacket. You go, all right, the show is Jump a Shark.

Dave Rose:

Oh, I got to remember that. Oh, yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's a famous term. Yeah, I worked with Henry years ago and we spoke about that.

Dave Rose:

Oh, really?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.

Dave Rose:

What did you work on with him?

Michael Jamin:

It was a show called Out of Practice with Henry Winkler and Stocker Channing and Ty Burrell, and they were the three main leads, and Henry's like the sweetest man in Hollywood. But we spoke a little bit about that

Dave Rose:

Being a child of sort of growing up in the eighties. I'm going to be remiss if we don't at least, and I'm sorry, man, talk about asking somebody about their hit. Please tell me about Beavis and Butthead for a minute. I mean, I don't care what you tell me about

Michael Jamin:

There's, there's very little I can tell you. So I was friend, this is when they brought the show back. It's been on three times already. And the second iteration, our friends, John Altro and Dave Krinsky, they were the showrunners. They created Silicon Valley and now they're running the second beavers. But that was so they needed freelance writers. It was a really low budget thing, and they reach out to us and the money was terrible, but we just had a break in our, we were in between shows, so the timing was perfect. They said, do you want to write some Beavis? But so we pitched them maybe 10 ideas. They bought four, but that was it. I mean, that was kind of the involvement. Then we went to see Mike Judge, we went to the record session. So we'll go to the booth and we're all watching videos, and we we're literally standing over his shoulders watching music videos, just pitching jokes about what beef is, and Bud would say, and then he would go into the booth, do the voice, and come back out. That was my involvement. So it was only we because wanted, it was just a fun experience. It was not for

Dave Rose:

Sure. Absolutely. What a, but again, I bet coming into it sort of midstream like that, what an even harder job. You've got hits. You want to give the audience what they expect, but you also want to give them what they don't expect. I mean, how you do that as an artist is hard.

Michael Jamin:

And do you have these conversations with your bands?

Dave Rose:

Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. Because the funny thing about music is none of us, if we sit down and listen to our Spotify list or whatever, and we have our catalog of music, none of us listen to one kind of music. We listen to all kinds of music, jazz and reggae and rock and whatever. We all have a mixture of taste, and depending on our mood, we want to explore that music. It's the same with artists. They don't think in one genre. They're artists. They're thinking all over the place. So it's really hard for them creatively to stay in this lane. It's why you see so many artists, I'm going to try to do a country record, or I'm going to try to do some other exploratory record, and that's okay. If you're Prince, you look like a genius. If you're Prince, if you're just starting out, you look confused. I don't know what I want to do, so I'm going to do a jazz song. So yeah, we do talk a lot about trying to stay, it's a terrible term for art, but trying to stay on brand with both your look and your sound and your music and the audience. When they go to buy a Bruce Springsteen record, they don't want to hear a jazz record. They want to hear good American rock and roll songs,

Michael Jamin:

But they also don't want to hear, I think you too may struggle with this. I think they got their sound, and it's like, all right, but I've already heard it.

Dave Rose:

They do struggle with that. Yeah, they've had a couple, and almost any act has their moment of when they look back on it, it's kind of like, what was I thinking?

Michael Jamin:

Right. I mean, to me, it sounds like I haven't listened to it in a while, but at one point I got an album there. I just thought it just sounded like every other, and they were amazing in the, I don't know, it seems like a very hard balancing act. How do you do this? How do you It

Dave Rose:

Is. It's why bands like Kiss, for example. I don't, I can't remember when. I think 20, I don't know. It was over 20 years since they recorded new music, just because they didn't want to attempt, they didn't top what they had done.

Michael Jamin:

I heard an interview by Cures for Fears, and they were talking about, and I didn't know this because really, I don't know the inside of music at all, but they were talking about how at one point, the album, I guess mid-career, that they were assigned a music producer and the producer kind of determined the sound. And I was, I surprised. I really thought that that's what they did. I thought they wrote all their songs and it said they were hearing songs written for them. I did not know that. I was really surprised. They are songwriters.

Dave Rose:

They are songwriters. And sometimes when a band or an artist hits that moment of how do we feed our fan base, but stay ahead of things, sometimes a good producer, outside writer can help move that along.

Michael Jamin:

On their last album, they shunned all that. They did it themselves, and I thought the album was terrific.

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I mean, I haven't heard it, but I've heard people say that,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, you haven't.

Dave Rose:

It's probably because they really went for the middle lane that they developed all along with their fan base. I mean, they're a brilliant act with an incredible catalog.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I mean, in the management world, at least in tv, in film, and for agents as well, it's not untypical for atypical for a writer or an actor to get to some point. Then they leave their manager or their agent, maybe they outgrow them or something happen. And how do you reconcile that?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, that happens all the time. In the music business, we call it the revolving door of managers and artists. I've had some come and go and come back and go,

Michael Jamin:

Really? Do you not take it personally then, or

Dave Rose:

One of the things you have to do is truly not take it personally. And sometimes it's sort of like I look at it like this. If you were to own a restaurant and that restaurant grows and changes and involves a different manager, has different skill sets. We're not all graded everything. We're good at certain things. And if you happen to be at the place in your career to where you're with a manager that is good at the things you need, that's a perfect relationship. If you happen to go outside of that, then you might need someone with a different skillset. And oftentimes a manager is the first to say, I feel like I've taken you as far as I can.

Let's find something new here. It's no different than a football coach or a restaurant manager or any sort of leader of a company. Sometimes for a lot of reasons, the stars align and sometimes they just don't. And if they don't, it's usually pretty recognizable to both parties. And there's very rarely, I mean, you certainly hear the stories both online and elsewhere of manager artists fallout, but by and large, I'm friends with every artist I've ever worked with, and I've never had a, I mean, I don't manage Bruce Hornsby anymore, but I just went backstage, went to his show and hung out with him after the show. And we talked about old times and had a good hang together. But there was a point in his career where I was and a point in my career where we just weren't at the same place, and I don't even mind sharing that. Yeah, please. He had been on RCA records for about 25 years, and the top brass at RCA was kind of changing, again, the revolving doors of executives at a record label, it was Tom. And so his life at RCA, his deal and relationship at RCA started to come to an end.

And I was really, really, I had two other bands at RCA. I was sort of really inside the walls of RCA records at the time, and so I wasn't really best suited for the next step in his career, which was to find a new label, a New York based label. I was very much Nashville centric at that point, and it was just, we came to a place where I felt like for him to go where he needed to go, he needed somebody else, and he felt the same. And

Michael Jamin:

It was, but that's another thing, because I see with my management, they have relationships at studios, and as you do have relationships and there, at the end of the day, you have your interests, and it is not like you're going to burn bridges with these studio that you have relationships with. You can only fight so much because of what you have with your other clients, right?

Dave Rose:

That's right. Yeah. It is probably like your business. It's a very small business at a certain level, a very small business. There's not a lot of, you're going to run into everybody again, and at some point you're going to want your act touring with their act, or you're going to want their act being featured on a record of your act. And if you burn bridges, it's just going to, I mean, I know people that do burn bridges, but it's rarely good.

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker View says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.

What is then the pinnacle for, I mean, we know what the pinnacle for an artist's career would be, whatever, selling a ton of records playing the Super Bowl, whatever they aspire to do, but what's the pinnacle for your career?

Dave Rose:

Oh, that's a great question. Yeah, it's interesting. I was taking my son to school the other day and he said, daddy, work seems like it's really fun, is work really fun. And he's come to my office before, and I got thinking about that, and I've chosen a path that really is fun. Never, this sounds corny to say I've never felt like I've worked a day in my life, really. It just really has never felt like work. I am so amazed that people pay me to do this. I was doing it long before I knew you could make money at it. And so the pinnacle for me is really that this continued joy of the business of music.

There's very few high level artists, celebrities I haven't met or come in contact with. And so none of that is really the moment for me. It's seeing an act like this band formerly that we're looking at. They're a country act. They've had four or five number one hits. They were playing in their garage in Greenville, North Carolina, small town where I grew up. I happened to just know them, and I took them to Nashville, one thing. So that's sort of what this business is for me. You see a band in a garage, and the next thing you know, they're accepting an award on stage, and it's just a beautiful feeling to know that you've helped an artist achieve those dreams.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. It's interesting that that's where you take the joy in. I would think that part, you're not the one who wants that dream. You're not the one, the artist. You're not the one who wants that dream, your dream joy doing it for others.

Dave Rose:

I would think there's similar satisfaction in being a writer, I would think. I mean, maybe you were motivated to be on screen all the time or in front of the camera all the time, but

Michael Jamin:

No, not really. No, not really. But I think writers are worried about their career. I want to write this, I want to make a lot of money or whatever.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. Well, the money certainly an enjoyable part of it, but it's not the driving factor, and it can't be in music, so risky.

Michael Jamin:

But you also, I guess, arrange entertainment events,

Dave Rose:

Right? Oh, wow. Yeah, that's very, you did your homework. Yeah, so around the turn of the century, so I live in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm in Nashville almost weekly, but I live in Raleigh, North Carolina, and in Raleigh, North Carolina, there are not a lot of artists management or record labels. It's a big, very creative music city, but there's not a lot of high level. So as Raleigh started to feel like they needed entertainment in their city and started thinking about amphitheaters and growth and expansion of their city, they kind of came to me saying, you've had artists play in these cities all over the country. Could you help us bring the good bad and the ugly of that to Raleigh and help us produce events? So yeah, over the past 20 years have become the kind of go-to, I produced the North Carolina State Fair and all the big festivals,

Michael Jamin:

But you keep it to this one region, though.

Dave Rose:

I do. I pretty much stay in the central, the Eastern North Carolina region. And it's funny because when bands go out on tour, I'm managing bands. I learned from Bruce Hornsby one time. I called him, I'd always check in after the show, and how did it go and whatever. And he went and played one show somewhere, and I said, how was the show? And he said, he kind of laughed while I said this, but he said, I was staring at a funnel cake sign the whole time. What

Michael Jamin:

Does that mean?

Dave Rose:

Funnel cakes? So you're playing this car almost like a carnival. Not that there's anything wrong with that, and there's plenty of respect in funnel cakes, but as an artist who played in the Grateful Dead Done Jazz records, not really his thing. So I kind of made a joke of always keep the funnel cake stand a little bit away from the stage, but I took all of this feedback from artists, what the backstage was like, what the stage was like, what the PA was like, what the lights were like. I took all the good, bad and the ugly from the artist, and I brought it back to my community to try to make the best concerts and events.

Michael Jamin:

I imagine there was a huge, not just a learning curve, but also financial risk in the beginning for you. No,

Dave Rose:

Yeah, I racked up a lot of credit cards.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really? I mean,

Dave Rose:

Oh yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Wow.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. One of my, yeah, I sure did. We started this company on a credit card, and that's what got us going. We produced CDs on credit card. We racked up a lot of credit card debt hoping this would win.

Michael Jamin:

What do you, and it's paid off.

Dave Rose:

It's paid off,

Michael Jamin:

Right?

Dave Rose:

I paid it off last week.

Michael Jamin:

Just last week. You made a final payment, you got points for it. But what advice then, do you have for, I guess, new artists? I mean, maybe either musicians or, I dunno, artists.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. I think the hardest thing to do, particularly in this world of TikTok and YouTube and reels, is to really be authentically you, because it's so easy to want to try to be the person that just went viral,

And that's never going to move the needle. That's never going to make a big splash. You might have a moment, I don't know if you remember, maybe three or four months ago, there was an artist on TikTok named Oliver Anthony that went massively viral. He is a bearded guy from the mountains and kind of just sang very, very pure songs, but went enormously huge. And within weeks, you've got every mountain guy with a beard trying to do the same thing. And it's really hard to not do that. When we're faced with that all the time, back in the day of Led Zeppelin, the Rolling Stones and everything else, one didn't really know what the other was doing.

Michael Jamin:

So

Dave Rose:

You went into your bubble and you created art in a way that you felt led to do, and now you're so pressured to try to be the next viral thing, and that's the hardest thing. So my advice is don't do that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You also, it's funny because I am a fan of your tiktoks. You give such interesting, great advice. You gave one post, this was maybe half a year or maybe a year ago, I don't know. And I was like, yes, I wanted to stitch it, but I guess I just didn't have the balls. And then I forgot about it. The post you did was, I guess a lot of people come to you for advice, and they just think they can just, Hey, you pick your brain or buy you a cup of coffee cup as if your time is worth $5 an hour, because that's what coffee costs. But you handled it very gracefully and graciously, but I'm not sure. Did you get any blowback for it?

Dave Rose:

Yeah. You're on TikTok, the blowback key. I mean, you definitely get, but by and large, by and large, what I ended up getting is it's been beautiful actually. Ever since then, I've got a lot of artists coming to me saying, look, I'm not going to offer to buy you a cup of coffee. I know how you feel about that, but I would like 30 minutes of your time, and how would I go about doing that? That's a beautiful way, I mean, I really picked this up from an attorney one time, and I was on the three-Way call with an artist, an attorney, and myself, and the artist said to the attorney, Hey, I got this contract and I don't really have a lot of money to spend, but I was hoping you could read it over and I could buy you a cup of coffee and pick your brain

Michael Jamin:

On it. Yeah. What did the attorney say?

Dave Rose:

And the attorney said, look, I understand you mean well, but I only have two things to sell. I've got my time and my knowledge, and you have just asked for both of those things for free.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. That's a good way of saying it.

Dave Rose:

And I just thought, wow. That's right. And as a manager, that's what you have. You got your time, your knowledge, and your connections. And if you're picking my brain, you are asking for those things for free. And I don't have anything else to feed my family with, but

Michael Jamin:

I wonder, is it because, because people ask me the same thing, and I guess it's because some people are actually giving it to them for free. Do you think

Dave Rose:

It is? Yeah. I mean, they must be, or otherwise they wouldn't be doing it, I guess.

Michael Jamin:

But then I wonder if you're only paying $5 for advice, and that advice is only worth $5, I mean, why would you want to take $5 advice?

Dave Rose:

Right, exactly. Yeah. But yeah, that's been a tough part of the music business because yeah, so thanks for noticing that. But I do think we, as a sort of service society, whether you're a screenwriter or whether you're a manager or an agent or whatever, all people really have is what's in their head and their time. And so to take that so lightly is to think that buying you lunch is going to somehow make it worthwhile. It just doesn't, not only doesn't make sense in a strange way, it's rude.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I don't think it's strange. I mean, I do think it's rude. Yeah, yeah.

Dave Rose:

But as I said, I think in that TikTok, I said, I understand you're offering to buy me something. So I understand that you're trying to be in your own way, polite, but let me just educate you. That's not a compliment to say that your time is worth a cup of coffee.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. But I appreciated that video. I really did. I was like, do

Dave Rose:

You get a lot of people asking to pick your brain?

Michael Jamin:

Yes. I guess less and less, but

Dave Rose:

You do some consulting as well, right?

Michael Jamin:

Well, what I did was eventually I signed up for, there's this app where you can sign up to be an expert. And so people ask me a question, sometimes it's an autoresponder, and it says, if you want to book time with Michael, you can do it. So here, a half a dozen people have booked. Everyone's asking, but no one books time. So to me, interesting. And I didn't do it because that's to make money, but I was like, well, look, if you want it, you're going to have to pay. But they don't want it bad enough to pay. So,

Dave Rose:

Well, it's interesting. I'm on a platform called August managers.io, and that's where I do my 30 minute consultations. And I've partially used it as a filter. It's funny, I'll get artists that go out and spend $10,000 on recording and $10,000 on video and photo shoots, and then they'll come to me and say, can I pick your brain for a cup of coffee? And I'm thinking, you have just spent $20,000 making music, and now the most important part, getting it out to the public, that's worth a cup of coffee to you. So I sort of use this platform as a filter. It's like Chemistry 1 0 1 in college. If you're willing to just invest a tiny bit to spend a little bit of time with a professional, I at least know you're serious.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That's how I see it as well. So you're weeding people out. They don't really want, yeah, I guess that's how unserious they are. If they're getting caught up on booking a half hour with me, then they don't really want,

Dave Rose:

I would think in your world, people want you to read their script, is

Michael Jamin:

That, oh, there's a lot of that, but you got to pay me way more than, I mean, here's the thing. I don't even do it, but they all want it. They want me to spend an hour and a half reading their script, another hour assembling notes, and then another hour on a phone call them giving them my notes while they get angry and defensive telling me why I'm wrong and do it for free. I mean, oh, yeah, okay. That sounds like a ball to me. But it's not about the money. The answer is no, all around. But it also exposes me to liability side because I don't want to be sued for taking someone's idea. So

Dave Rose:

Totally. I mean, that's a big part of the music business a lot. You'd hear about unsolicited music, and a lot of people, myself included, will not even open an email with music attached if I don't know who it is. Is it

Michael Jamin:

Because for liability reasons?

Dave Rose:

Yeah. They

Michael Jamin:

Think you're going to steal their sound or their song.

Dave Rose:

I think Yes. I think they do think that. And I think in the history of the music business, that has happened maybe three times. I mean, it just doesn't happen. Interesting. So it's funny that that's a topic even, I don't know if it happens in the film and TV business, but in the music business that anytime you've heard of a lawsuit of one suing the other about a sound, it's very, very rarely actual theft. Most often, there's only eight chords, and you can arrange them in only so many ways. And if you're in a genre like hip hop or country where it's in some ways a little bit of a formula in the way your pop music is that way, you write very narrow melodies and chord progressions. It's bound to your, I mean, about the a hundred thousand songs released a day, you're bound to cross paths there in a close manner. It's very rarely malicious.

Michael Jamin:

So then how are you listening to new music, if at all? Is it because you see an act on stage or something?

Dave Rose:

Yeah, no, I will listen to it if it's coming to me from a vetted source or if it's coming to me in a way that I feel. But I get a lot of just very blind emails, never met, seen, heard of the person. And one of my favorite quotes was Gene Simmons said one time, look, if I'm hearing about you for the first time from you, you're not ready.

Michael Jamin:

You're not ready. Interesting.

Dave Rose:

Because we keep our ears to the ground. I mean, I'm hearing about artists all the time. I mean, I can't go to the dentist without hearing about five new artists. People know that we work in the music business. So no matter where I go, the coffee shop, the dentist, the pizza shop, whatever, they're going to tell me about their cousin that just released a song. That's the next Beatles. So I hear about stuff, and if I hear about it from 7, 8, 9 different places, I start to know there's something there.

Michael Jamin:

Right. I directed Gene Simmons, by the way, on an animated show. I had to yell. No

Dave Rose:

Way.

Michael Jamin:

Well, yeah. Well, he came into the studio like a rockstar, which is what he is, of course. And then he is holding court and, Hey, dude, we're paying for this thing. And I knew I was going to get yelled at by my boss, so I had to say, Hey, gene, we're recording now. I had to tell shot him, get onto the microphone.

Dave Rose:

Oh, that's awesome. He is a really interesting person. I've met him a couple of times. I really am amazed by his story.

Michael Jamin:

That's funny. Chrissy Hy came in. My partner had to direct Chrissy, and she came in also like a rockstar into the booth, and she's smoking a cigarette and you're not supposed to with the equipment. And he asked her to put it out, and she wouldn't. And he was like, that's fine with me. Whatcha going to do?

Dave Rose:

I love it. She's

Michael Jamin:

Chrissy Hein. She gets to do what she wants. But that's so interesting. Yeah. I get that same sometimes when people ask me a question and I wonder if you feel the same way about breaking into the business or some kind of basic thing. They leave a comment and I'm like, all you got to do is just scroll down and all my videos are labeled. You're going to find it. I wonder how bad you want it. If you feel like you have to ask me without looking. This is literally the least you have to do to find an answer nowadays.

Dave Rose:

I did a video recently where one of the most common questions I get is, somebody will present their music to me and they'll say, do you think I have what it takes to make it? And that is without question, the hardest question to answer because I don't know your definition of make it. And to be honest, a lot of people don't know their definition of make it. I had a band come into my office one time, they finally, they've been wanting to line up a meeting. They came in and they said, I said, so what do you guys want to do? What are you hoping to do? And they said, well, we want to be successful. You know what I mean? And I said, well, no, I don't know what you mean. Tell me what success means to you. And they said, well, we want to make a living at music.

I said, well, that's good. I can have you doing that within 30 days. And they kind of looked at me like, wow. We hit the jackpot coming to this meeting, and I said, here's what we're going to do. We're going to buy you a bunch of tuxedos. You're going to learn some top 40 songs. We're going to play the wedding and corporate cover circuit, make a great living. They kind of looked at you and they were like, no, that's not what we meant. Okay, let me change that answer. We want to make a living playing our music. I said, alright. Little bit harder to do, but we can still do it. There's sports bars around the country where you set up in the corner and they don't really care what you play, your background music, but you make a pretty decent living. You'll make good tips.

We're like, no, no. Lemme think about this. They thought about it for a little bit more and they said, okay, we got it. We want to be on the radio. Then one other guy spoke up and he said, playing our music. I said, okay, I got you, my friend does the Sunday night local show on the radio station. He's a friend of mine. He'll play anything I send him. I'll send him your song, he'll play it on Sunday. You will have been successful. And they like, all right. And one guy spoke up at that point and he said, I see what you're trying to do. You're trying to confuse us. I said, no, no, no. You're quite confused on your own I'm trying to do is point out that I can't help you until you know what you want. And there's no wrong answer to that. Some artists come to me and say, I want world domination. I want to be the next big, huge thing. And others simply say, I just want to make great music and I don't really care if I make a living. I just want good quality music out there.

Michael Jamin:

Is that right?

Dave Rose:

Oh yeah. People

Michael Jamin:

Really do. But I imagine, I mean, you got to pay your bills. That's not attractive to you. Right?

Dave Rose:

It's not attractive to me and that's okay, but there's still a place for that in this world. But yeah, and here's the other thing. A lot of people think they want that world domination and playing arenas, but the moment we start saying things like, well, let's say a country artist came to me and they said, I want to be the biggest country star in the world. First thing out of my mouth would be, you're going to need to move to Nashville. You don't need to do that in every genre, but in country, that's a must be present To Win town, you're going to have to be in Nashville. Well, I don't really want to do that. I got this and a job and whatever. So I tell people all the time, prioritize where music is in your life. It doesn't have to be number one, but just knowing where it is will help you make decisions on what's most important. When I give advice to artists, I often ask them, do you have kids and are you married? And tell me about your personal life. The truth is, the advice I give to someone with a two month old baby at home is different than a single 21-year-old that can go out and explore the world.

Michael Jamin:

What do you think it is that people like me, Hollywood, what do I get? What do we get wrong about the music industry when we portray it on TV and film?

Dave Rose:

Oh wow. Well, it's funny because in every music based show, I used to watch the show Nashville, which was produced very well, and it was done in Nashville, so it had a lot of authenticity to it. But I think what I don't think you get it wrong, I think you have to portray it this way because that's the way TV is made. But you can go from in one episode writing a song to going on tour with Bon Jovi all within a week or two's time, what seems like a week or two's time in a film or TV show. And it's a laborious, long as you know from any aspect of entertainment, it's years before you start to take off from that runway. It's a several year runway, but I think the public as a result of just all of our short attention spans shows and even movies have to be written. So that what seems like in a couple of months, couple of weeks, sometimes you go from writing this song to touring with Beyonce.

Michael Jamin:

Why do you think, and I say this selfishly, I want to know for myself, why do you think the runways is so long before you take off? Why does that mean, why does it take so long?

Dave Rose:

Well, I think a lot of it is because writing music, like writing anything takes a lot of hours to get good at it.

Michael Jamin:

Okay, but let's say you got your album out and it's a great album now it's going to take years before

Dave Rose:

No, no, no, no, no. It's going to take years to get that great

Michael Jamin:

Album. Right. Okay.

Dave Rose:

Right. Once that great album is assembled and together, it can be a relatively, I mean, it can be a relatively short runway to success once that great in Nashville, there's a saying when somebody comes into me with a publisher and a publisher is someone who oversees the copyrights of songs, but when someone comes to me with a publisher and they say, how many songs have you written? No matter what the answer is, they almost always say, come back when you've written your next a hundred. Really, there's kind of an unwritten seven year rule in Nashville. You should not expect success for at least seven years after you come to town

Michael Jamin:

With your first album,

Dave Rose:

With your first set of releases. It just takes that long to get really, really top level good at this in any genre. I think, I mean, if there was a comment section on this podcast, there would be tons of people giving me the exceptions to those rules right now, which is the beauty of the music business or any entertainment. There's exceptions to that rule. There's overnight sensations, but by and large, most of the big artists had a long runway.

Michael Jamin:

So you're listening, if you were listening to an album by a new artist, you're thinking, okay, maybe one or two songs has got something in the rest are just not there. You're saying

Dave Rose:

Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. I mean, you take a band, it's funny, that first hit, I worked with Sex and Candy, the band, Marcy Playground, between the time they rode and recorded that and it became a number one hit was four years.

Michael Jamin:

Okay,

Dave Rose:

Four years.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Okay. So they had the goods, but it took four years before people discovered they had the goods.

Dave Rose:

That's right. That was a very interesting journey. They charted on college radio and then they tried to work to regular radio. It didn't happen, and they label problems and they tried again and it finally happened. Same thing with this band, sixpence On The Richer and the song Kiss Me. They had that song Kiss Me on a Record, and it did not become a hit for another two years.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Okay. So then how do they do that? Is it just touring? Is it just getting it out there? Just having people listen,

Dave Rose:

In the nineties it was touring. It was just getting out there and touring

Michael Jamin:

Even. Not today. You're saying today's it's not like that today.

Dave Rose:

It's not. I mean, it's some touring is one aspect of it, but the beauty of Michael, you and I would not be here talking if it were not for TikTok. And as much as I love to hate on social media platforms for all the reasons they're easy to hate on there is I tell our assist all the time. There is someone in Topeka, Kansas right now that loves what you do. You just got to find them. And if you do, there'll be fans for life. But unless you plan on touring Topeka, Kansas this week, you're not going to find 'em. So get online and post

Michael Jamin:

How many, I've heard numbers and I if it's true, but how many crazy, what's the word, rabid fans, do you need think a band needs before they hit critical mass?

Dave Rose:

Well, critical mass is a subjective term, but I say this a lot. You only need a thousand fans. And I'm talking about real fans. Fans that would give the shirt off their back fans. I'm not talking about followers,

Michael Jamin:

I'm not

Dave Rose:

Talking about likes or subscribes,

Michael Jamin:

Right? People who open their wallet,

Dave Rose:

A thousand fans that consume everything you put out. That's all you need to make a great living in music.

Michael Jamin:

But how is that possible? Okay, so if you've had a thousand fans, they're scattered all across the country and I don't understand, how does that make you a good living? You can put it on a new album to a thousand fans. How does that make you a living?

Dave Rose:

I'll tell you how that is because when I was 10 years old, I had a older cousin, cousin Rick and I went to his house and he had a wall of vinyl records, more vinyl records than you could ever imagine. And he reached and he had got a new stereo and he wanted to show me the stereo, and he pulled up a Boston record, the classic rock band Boston. They had just put out their first record and he put it on the turntable and he was telling me everything he needed to tell me about Boston, and I was just mostly fascinated by the fact that of a thousand records on his wall, he picked that one to tell me about it. And from there I went and bought the record. I consumed, I bought the T-shirts, I bought this. The thing about a thousand fans is they're your marketing arms. A thousand fans are not going to keep your music close to their chest and keep it over here in the corner. They're going to tell everybody that'll possibly listen. And if you've got a fan that it gets in the car with their friends and they got three minutes to the next drive and a billion songs to choose from, they're going to choose yours. And that's going to turn those fans, those friends into fans. So it starts with a thousand core fans and you can really take over the world.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder, and again, I say this selfishly, I put out a book, and so this is the first venture. I've done solo like this, and so I'm curious how many, when do I go viral? How does that work for me? When do my thousand fans kick in and how does that

Dave Rose:

Work? I think a book is the hardest thing in the world. I've now released, I'm about to release my third book, and it is the hardest thing. God bless you. This is a great book. And by the way, everybody, I mean John Mayer endorses it. I loved your video on John Mayer,

Michael Jamin:

By the way.

Dave Rose:

I mean, that's insane. But yeah. Yeah. I hope your thousand fans, I feel like they're out there

Michael Jamin:

Because you think because no one wants to read, you're saying

Dave Rose:

No. I think fans do want to read. I mean, do you have an audio version of this?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I have an audiobook. Yeah.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. So you've 'em covered whether they want to read or not. Right,

Michael Jamin:

Right. Interesting. Okay.

Dave Rose:

Did you read the book for the audio version?

Michael Jamin:

Perform it really? It's a performance. Yeah.

Dave Rose:

Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah, I'll have to listen to that. That sounds really interesting. No, I think a thousand fans can be your marketing champions, but getting those thousand is hard. It's the equivalent of having a thousand really good friends that really care about what you do. They're passionate about your calls, your reason for doing this.

Michael Jamin:

But do you have any evidence to suggest that a thousand is the right number? You know what I'm saying?

Dave Rose:

I don't. Right. Well, I know this, there's a lot. One of the revenue streams right now for artists is things like Patreon and Patreon's a big thing for the super fan. The super fan will give you a little bit of money each month, three, five, $10 to consume a little extra insight into your life, whether that be unreleased songs or behind the scenes videos or whatever that might be.

Michael Jamin:

That seems hard though, but I'm sorry, go ahead.

Dave Rose:

If you have a thousand people willing to give you $5 a month cup of coffee back to our cup

Michael Jamin:

Of coffee,

Dave Rose:

$5 a month, that's $5,000 a month just on that one revenue stream. They're also going to consume your music. They're going to buy your T-shirts, they're going to come to your shows, but more importantly, a thousand fans can quickly turn viral into 10,000 when they're passionately telling everyone under the sun about you.

Michael Jamin:

You must must talk about this with your bands about shutting a Patreon, but don't they say, well, we are already posting on social media. What the hell else do we have to say behind the paywall when we're already saying everything? We're already struggling to give enough for free.

Dave Rose:

The thing that I'm finding is working the most is one-on-one or Experiences. For example, I have this one artist that does listening parties on their Patreon. They go on and they play their music, and they'll talk about the making of it, and they'll pause the record and they'll say, Hey, I was trying this solo and it didn't work. And these are one-on-one, and the people are shooting questions and the artist is answering them, and they're not recorded, and they happen in the moment. And so for an extra five bucks a month, you get to get inside the life of that artist, and

Michael Jamin:

You can put that inside Patreon. How is it being broadcast?

Dave Rose:

So it's being broadcast just on a Zoom, but only patrons have that link and they have a special code to get in and all that sort of stuff,

Michael Jamin:

And that's kind of what they're doing for $5 a month. You get basically that

Dave Rose:

You get experiences. Some artists, it really depends on your fan base. Some artists release a song per month. They'll write a song and release it. Got a Texas artist that I'm friends with that that's what he does. He releases a song only to his Patreon crowd once a month. He's such a prolific writer. He could probably write an album per month. So putting an extra song on Patreon that nobody else hears is,

Michael Jamin:

And no one else will hear that song. Nobody

Dave Rose:

Else

Michael Jamin:

Will ever. I mean, that seems almost crazy.

Dave Rose:

Well, I wouldn't say ever, but in some ways you can use Patreon as your vetting for what songs you should be releasing.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Dave Rose:

You can put 'em out there to your thousand hardcore fans and watch which ones they really react to.

Michael Jamin:

Do you have a Patreon?

Dave Rose:

I don't personally, no. I run a lot of Patreons for artists. I don't personally have one. No,

Michael Jamin:

Those are all interesting ideas. Any other you? No, but I've been, here's the thing, Dave, every time I should, but I'm like, do I really want to put more on my plate? You know what I'm saying? It's putting stuff on your plate.

Dave Rose:

You've got a great course. I've been very much admiring your ability to put out courses, and one of the things I've liked that you've done, I've noticed, is you put out very specific topics for a pretty low amount.

Michael Jamin:

Well, it's free. I do these webinars that are free. Well,

Dave Rose:

The webinars, the free webinars are insane. I, but I would think that's got to help in the overall big picture of things. No,

Michael Jamin:

Maybe yes and no. Yes and no. We could talk more. Maybe we'll talk more about that off the podcast. I'll get your advice on something. Yeah, but

Dave Rose:

You do have courses, right? I mean,

Michael Jamin:

I have one course. Yeah, it's a screenwriting course. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Rose:

And I mean, somebody might buy that in the middle of the night and you're making money without having Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. Which is nice. And that supports me, that allows me to do the creative things that I want to do that don't necessarily make a lot of money, but I want to do 'em. So yeah.

Dave Rose:

What are you working on right now that you're able to tell,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, well, you're

Dave Rose:

Able to

Michael Jamin:

Share? Right now it's about putting my book, getting my book out there. We're pitching an animated pilot in the next couple of weeks. Will it sell? I don't know. We'll see. And then we'll pitch a couple other shows. Will it sell? We don't know. That's how it goes.

Dave Rose:

I want to mention that real quick as it relates to your music audience. That's a big question. I guess somebody will write a song and send it to me and say, do you think I could sell this to another artist? Which is interesting because in music it does not work that way at all. You don't sell a song.

Michael Jamin:

I think you write a song. I think you could be a songwriter for somebody. So what's the difference then?

Dave Rose:

So when you write a song, you basically give that song to an artist, and if that artist chooses to cut it, you are in a revenue stream on that.

Michael Jamin:

Right? Okay. That you

Dave Rose:

Don't sell songs. Big misconception in the music business,

Michael Jamin:

But I guess I'm not clear on the difference then wouldn't you send them a track and say, do you like this? And then you have to send 'em a track. They have to hear it, right?

Dave Rose:

Yeah. They have to hear it. And if they like it, they cut it. They don't pay you for that song. Whenever that song is played on the radio, you get a royalty stream from that, or you get a royalty stream

Michael Jamin:

From

Dave Rose:

It's spun on Spotify royalty stream from that. But the artist is not buying a song from you, and by the way, you still own that song. So you can take that song to someone else and to someone else and to someone else. That's why you have lots of different cover versions of

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I see. Song. Okay, so you can get three different artists. I would've thought if you, I'm so sorry, I meant to put this on silent. Lemme this right now, I can

Dave Rose:

Hear.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. I would've thought when whoever major, whatever, Taylor Swift, I dunno, maybe she probably writes all her own music, but if she didn't were to agree to record your song, I would've thought she'd say, no, it's me and me alone.

Dave Rose:

You can't do that. It's not the way, yeah. I mean, she can say, I'm the first one to do it. You can't let someone else do it first. But once a song, this is an interesting part of the music business, but once a song is in the public demand, once it's been released, anyone can cover it. Day Taylor Swift releases a song, you, Michael Jamin can go the very next day and record that song as long as the proper royalties are paid to her as the songwriter.

Michael Jamin:

Why is that not done more often then?

Dave Rose:

You don't even need to ask her permission. I mean, it is done. Just pop on Spotify or YouTube. If you take any song, take a Taylor Swift song and just search YouTube or search Spotify, and you're going to see hundreds of versions of that song.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Wow. See, I'm long on all this stuff. I failed. This has been a very eyeopening conversation for

Dave Rose:

Me. Oh man. Next week I'm going to reverse the, I'm going to be asking you questions. If I had a podcast, you'd be my first

Michael Jamin:

Guest. I would appreciate that. No, I would do it in a heartbeat. Dave Rose, you are, thank you so much, and I want to make sure everyone knows where they can follow you on all their social media.

Dave Rose:

Yeah, so the name of my company is Deep South. If you search Dave Rose Deep South on almost any, I mean, stick it in Google and that'll take you everywhere You need

Michael Jamin:

To go take everywhere. Go follow. I mean, go follow him. There's so much overlap, I feel between the things that we say, and yet still, I feel like I learn a lot just by listening to you and watching

Dave Rose:

You. Likewise, when I started following your page, I was like, wow, there is a lot of similarities

Michael Jamin:

In this business. Yeah, it's so interesting. But thank you again so much. Thank you. What a wonderful conversation. Don't go anywhere. Don't stay right there. Alright, everyone, what a great conversation we had. Go follow Dave Rose and Deep South and until Next Week, keep writing.

Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

Show Notes

Cynthia Mann Jamin IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0542699/

Cynthia Mann Jamin on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/prime-video/actor/Cynthia-Mann/amzn1.dv.gti.ca37e830-61b1-44db-8fe5-979422acb482

Cynthia Mann Jamin Shop: https://www.twirlygirlshop.com/

A Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/book

A Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1

A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4

A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

If it wasn't something that was organic for you, it would be torture trying to become this person that you think other people want to see, or you got to position yourself like this other person over here. But it really is about finding your unique voice because that's all we have.

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to What The Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.

Michael Jamin:

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. I have a very special guest today, the very beautiful and talented, I'm going to call her Cynthia Mann, although she's now currently Cynthia Mann Jamin and she's my wife and Cynthia. I met years ago, I was a writer on a show called Just Shoot Me, and she was the guest star and she was a working actor and she worked on many shows including she was a recurring on Friends. She had, I dunno, five or so or six episodes on Friends Recurring on Veronica's Closet, Seinfeld, er Suddenly Susan Will and Grace, all those shows of the nineties, all those musty TV shows. She did almost all of them. And now she is the director and producer of my one man show as well as the audio book. So I thought a paper orchestra. So she did all of that. So I thought we would talk to her about that and about her experience working in Hollywood as well as directing and producing my audiobook for all of you people who aspire to do something similar. Hello, Cynthia.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Hi Michael.

Michael Jamin:

Hello. My beautiful wife. She's in the other room. We're pretending we live far apart, but actually we live very close to each other.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

You could say we're roommates.

Michael Jamin:

This is my roommate, Cynthia. So thank you so much for doing this. Thank you, most of all for producing and directing my show. And I don't know, where do we begin? What should we start with?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, I think it's, the thing that's interesting is people might want to know how is it working together and why do we work together?

Michael Jamin:

I don't have an answer for that. You're cheap labor. That's why we work. I don't have to pay you. Why is that? Why we work together?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, it's funny because it goes all the way back to when we were first dating. I think if you want to talk about that because Go ahead. Well, we love doing projects together.

Michael Jamin:

Projects, we call them projects. How the Canadians say It. Project,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, projects. And when we first met it was kind of like, well, we had this common interest of he's a writer, I'm an actor, but it's like you can't sit around all day and just write and act. So we would find common things that we like to take walks, we like to do hiking. I taught you about Run Canyon, you were running in the flats. And I'm like, what the hell are you doing? Why are you running in the flats? Why don't you run up a hill?

Michael Jamin:

I didn't realize you could. It was so steep. And then you said you ran it. So I said, oh, alright. I guess I could try running it. I

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Totally ran it. I ran it all the time. I had, I had really muscular legs. You

Michael Jamin:

Did. I

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Know you did. Yeah. And I still do. But yeah, so we would find little things to do and I would take you around LA and get you lafy and teach you what Celestial seasonings

Michael Jamin:

And

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Stuff. Yes, tea

Michael Jamin:

Is and also Whole Foods and Mrs. Gooch's. Mrs.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Gooch's. Yeah. This is way back. We

Michael Jamin:

Would go to all this. She didn't approve of the supermarkets that I went to. So you

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Can go in there. I'm not going to get my food there you there though.

Michael Jamin:

And so many ways You helped me a lot with art because you are an artist. You were a starving artist when I met you.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Oh yes. Yeah. Well, barely getting by. I would say would barely getting by. I've had every survival job you can think of. I've done singing telegrams with the monkey that goes like this, and I've done sold shoes and I've waitressed and I've done a million survival jobs. So in my thirties I finally started to get acting jobs and I was a professional dancer for a while. And Grit didn't go to college right away, only finished two years of it. Later in my thirties when I met Michael, I was going to college and working and going on auditions and all of that. And when I met Michael, it was one of those crazy auditions where the casting director, Deb Burki, who I'm forever grateful for, she brought me in just to the callback. She didn't even read me first because we had had a relationship and she always appreciated my work and thought, oh, this is good for Cynthia.

Let me just bring her in straight to the producers. And I remember Steve Levitan was there, probably Andy Gordon and Eileen because it was their episode and Eileen Khan and I got that job. She called me the next day and just said, yeah, you got it. And I was like, oh, yay. I'm so excited. And they only booked me for three days. So when I went on the set, it was at Universal because I didn't really know what Just Shoot Me was. It was a new show and I don't think it was airing yet. It was just the first six episodes. So nobody really knew what it was about or the tone or anything. And I just went in, did my scene, went home prepared to come back the next day for shoot day. Really? And you guys sent me a script at nine in the morning or something like that and said, we rewrote your scene because we found a better way to write this scene. I don't know, you can tell me the behind the scenes of that. I don't really know why you did that.

Michael Jamin:

I don't really remember why that was rewritten. It was a long time ago.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I think it was. Maybe it just wasn't exciting enough or something. And you wanted the dialogue to be between me and Laura more.

Michael Jamin:

I don't

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Remember. Instead of the roommate. And so you guys had me into the writer's room before, which is very unusual. You never really go into a writer's room to work out a scene. But because we were shooting it that day and we had to go straight to the run through and I think the network was going to be there. You didn't want to mess around. And so you gave me notes and we rehearsed it and Laura was there and the other scene partner who, I'm so sorry, I forgot his name. Chris,

Michael Jamin:

I want to say.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, Chris. And then we just went and shot it. And then I shoot the scene at night and I'm like, oh my God, this was so much fun. And it was great. And I'm like, all right, I'm going to go. And who's standing right next to me as I'm walking off the set and kind of hanging back and it was you.

Michael Jamin:

It was me,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

It was you.

Michael Jamin:

And then you said you wanted to marry me. I said, I don't even know you.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I complimented your tie. That's right. And then you said, I did a really nice job. Yeah, you did. And I said thank you. And then we were talking about, I think you said, so what do you like to do for fun? Or something like that. Yeah. We went and I asked you that and you said you swing dance. And I had already been swing dancing at the Derby many times with my friend Brendan. And we would go and swing dance. So

Michael Jamin:

My

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Knees went weak when you

Michael Jamin:

That's right. I took, it was either you or Brendan I took you.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

So then long story short, there was a couple of weeks that went by and you called me and said, hi, this is Michael. And I said, I don't remember that name, but you're making it up because he has that name. And then you said, no, it's me and I would like to take you out for coffee. And I said, I don't drink coffee. I drink tea.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, we had tea instead.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

He said, that's okay, huh?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. Right.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And then I remember this, Michael, on our first date, I hung back in my car because I think I saw you walk in. I'm like, I got to be a little late. I got to make him wait for me a little bit. So I made you wait just a little bit. And then I go in and the woman comes and says, so do you want a chocolate chip or oatmeal cookie, highland grounds? And it's not there anymore, I don't think. And you took the longest time figuring out what flavor you wanted. For me it was easy. It was chocolate chip or peanut butter. That was the other one. And then you go, I go, why did it take you so long to order the cookie? And you go, because I wasn't sure if there was anything to be gained by lying.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I was trying to impress you with the choice of cookies.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Weirdest thing anyone said to me that you cared enough about. The cookie choice is crazy.

Michael Jamin:

And then we've been together ever since.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

We've been together ever since. And to go back to the projects, we started with tiling a table that now our daughter has at her college apartment. And that was our first project. And then we decided to have kids, and that was our second project.

Michael Jamin:

Then

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I started my business Twirly Girl, which I ran for 15 years. Still going, but not as big. And you helped me with that. You wrote all my commercials and did all of that. And then you wrote a book and then I'm helping you with that. So I think we're better when we're working together, honestly.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I do. I think it's, when I was doing Twirly Girl and you were working as a writer and all of that, we never really connected on any kind of common ground aside from the kids because you were always doing your thing. I was doing my thing. But then when you started to write the commercials, I think our relationship went to another level because it's like you're appreciating the other person for their gifts and what they bring to you. But it's also like you're helping me with something that really means a lot to me. And it was like this back and forth that just felt so great. And I trusted you more than anyone to put me in the best light. And I think that's the same with you trusting me with your words because I care about them and I want to present you in the best light and I'll work tirelessly to get it.

Michael Jamin:

And you have produce the audio book and you had to learn how to do all that. What do you have to tell people? What do you have to share? What wisdom can you share with people on starting something like this?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I would say, and I was talking to Lola about this last night, and what occurred to me was that when you have the pinch or you have the idea, just the idea to do something and it's filling you with a lot of joy and passion and it almost creates its own engine in you, and you just feel so motivated to attack it and see if you can accomplish it. It almost doesn't matter if anybody else likes it because it's something you need to do. And I felt that way with my business. I remember creating these dresses and going, I know they're special. I know they are so special. And I don't even, the icing on the cake is that other people love them, but that's not why I'm doing itm doing it because I need to do it. And it's bringing me so much joy and it's fulfilling something in me that was missing or that I didn't even know that I needed.

And it brought me so much that I could have more than I could have ever thought, oh, I'm going to make dresses because it's going to give me a sense of self. It's going to fire that entrepreneurial spirit. It's going to make me feel connected to those around me. I'm going to share my story about it. I couldn't have thought that I just followed the desire to make something. And then all these things kind of cascaded. And that's what I'm telling you. That's how I feel about the audio book. When you said, all right, you're going to direct and you're also going to edit it and you're going to do all these things, I'm like, I don't know how to do Pretty much, I knew how to direct because of the acting background, but I didn't know how to do an audiobook. We didn't know how we wanted this to come into the world and what it would look like. But I felt that desire, that same joy to just achieve this. And we love it and we know we did an amazing job, and the fact that it's resonating with other people is icing on the cake because we couldn't not do it.

Michael Jamin:

But you still had to learn a lot of skills to do that.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, I think I love, I'm one of those people that loves learning by doing. You would tell me, watch the videos on how to do it. And I was like, this is not going to go anywhere for me because I'm not going to retain it unless I need it. If I need to know how to do something, then I'm going to learn it. So I learned by doing it. And that process is so exciting to me because I know that I'm also growing as a person if I can accomplish something really hard that I don't think I know how to do or I've never done before. So that challenge is also really gratifying for me.

Michael Jamin:

And now there's the next challenge, which is taking it on the road.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And we have no clue how to do that either. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

We'll figure it out. I guess we'll just make it happen.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

It's really just about putting your energy into something and then watching as things start falling into place.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Exactly. You don't know what you don't know, but you'll find it out. And then that thing will lead to another thing. And we have very different styles. You and I, what my sense of what you do, and you tell me what you think mine is, but my sense of what your approach is is you throw a hundred percent of your energy into thinking about it, and you're almost like tunnel vision. You have to be so hyperfocused on it until you get it to where you want it to be and nothing distracts you. What do you think my style is? I'm just, is that I have that right?

Michael Jamin:

I'm not really sure. I guess so I'm not really sure I, I guess I work on it until I'm done.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But it is like you have this hyper focus about it. And for me, I kind of feel guilty if I'm not like you just sitting at the computer and studying it and figuring it out, then to me, I have to walk away and I have to kind of let it settle. And then I have to really check in with my intuition in a way and go, okay, what's the next right move? Where do I need to spend my energy is just spinning my wheels, trying to figure it out, doesn't work for me. And I feel like you are good at that. You're good at like, okay, I'm going to figure this out. And you just keep working it and working it kneading the dough. And for me, I have to leave it and come back to it.

Michael Jamin:

All of it was every single part of it. None of it's easy. I don't know why people expect it to be easy. We all want it to be easy, but it never is. The creating of it is never easy. And then the marketing of it, putting it out there and getting people to, that's half the battle.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And I think the main thing that we discovered, and I think you working with Twirly Girl really helped you with this project because you saw how being authentic and really communicating with your audience in a very real way resonates. And there's no other way to do it because how could you post every single day if it wasn't something that was organic for you, it would be torture, trying to become this person that you think other people want to see, or you got to position yourself like this other person over here. But it really is about finding your unique voice because that's all we have. There's a million books out there. There's a million dresses. I created dresses. There's a million of them. We don't need another one. But what we don't have is the dress that I can make. What we don't have is the book that you can write. And I think leaning into that perspective is really, really empowering and crucial to the creative process.

Michael Jamin:

We would speak a lot. We would go on walks and speak a lot about, in the beginning we would talk about what the function of art is, what's the expectation and what the market is. I remember talking about, because David Sedaris is the one who inspired me to write this. I love his writing. And it's the same genre, personal essays, and I remember talking to you, but we know what he writes. People love, we know there's a market for it. So I be doing that.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, I, but he's kind of paved the way, and that was inspiring. I think inspiration is so healthy, and that's what you were inspired by. But the whole thing that you talk about is finding your voice, and it took you a while to find the rhythm. And people, when they read it, they're never going to confuse David s and Michael Jamin. They're never going to, because your background in TV gave you this whole different way of going into a story and entertaining an audience. And that's just in your blood. It's in your makeup, it's just who you are and the details of everything that you write. It reads like a film or cinematically because there's no moment in there where it's not leading to something else

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to. What the hell is MichaeliJamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity. And Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, we'll find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.

Michael Jamin:

I wish it was a genre that was easier to explain to people, because when people say, what's your story? What's a book about? I have to try to explain, well, it's personal essays, but it's not an essay. Essay sounds like homework. It's not a memoir because I'm not important that it's my memoir. They're stories, but they're true. But what is that? It'd be just so much easier if I could say, well, it's YA fantasy or something. And people go, oh, okay. I know what young adult fantasy is, but it's not that. And so that's part of the uphill struggle that we have is explaining to people, getting people to understand enough just to take a chance and read it.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But I think letting people catch up to what is what's important, what it is, is important because you're assuming that you have to spell it out for people. And I'll equate it again to Tuley Girl, the dresses I made were so hard to explain. And we were like, but it's not this. It's not fantasy, but you can wear it every day. And I had about 5,000 different taglines because I couldn't communicate it. And then finally you came up with the most amazing explanation of what it was after probably about eight years of doing it, which was, what

Michael Jamin:

Was it? You could say it. You could say it.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, we don't create dresses. We create your favorite childhood memory. Happy childhood. We're creating happy memories,

Michael Jamin:

Happy childhood memories.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Dress isn't just a,

Michael Jamin:

You got it wrong. We create happy childhood memories. That's what

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

It was. Right? Happy childhood. Well, I've had a year doing the audiobook, so 12 Girls in the Distance there.

Michael Jamin:

But that was another thing I remember. We saw a wonderful special by this guy named Derek DelGaudio called In and of itself, it's a wonderful, it was on Hulu. It was like a one-time special, basically like an hour long or something.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, it started as a

Michael Jamin:

Stage play. It started as a stage play. But when I tell people, when I try to describe what it's about, it's almost impossible to describe. And that's part of the problem. It's hard. It was such a uniquely wonderful experience, but it's impossible to tell people to describe it because it's its own thing.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, I But you would say it's a one man show and a very unique experience,

Michael Jamin:

But there's magic and it's participation, but it's not magic. It's something else.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, it's not a magic show.

Michael Jamin:

No, it's not a magic show. So it's really hard to, putting something in a box makes it easier to sell because people can understand what the box is. And I feel like that's part of the struggle I have with a paper orchestra, which is, and everyone who reads it, they love it, but they still don't understand what it is until they actually read it.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But see, I think what you have on the cover is perfect. It's true stories about the smallest moments that you sometimes forget. What if the smallest moments were the ones that meant the most? So that says everything to me. That's all I need to know.

Michael Jamin:

That's what the book is. It's just about, hey, here's a small moment in life where I point out, which easily you could have forgotten about because it's so small. And it turns out, if you look back at that moment, everything changed because of it.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And I love that you talk about the fact that it's really not about, you have to have these catastrophic or monumental things happen to you to be a changed person. Most of us don't have those huge, huge moments and so tender and intimate about it and relatable because you didn't come from an unusual background. You're pretty average with child of divorce. That's kind of average for our job, do.

Michael Jamin:

So those are the kind of stories that I tell, and I said before, I really don't think the stories are my stories. The details are mine, but I'm really trying to tell your story. But maybe you haven't figured out how to do that. But I do that because I'm a writer, so I know how to do that.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. And I think we're just, it's nice that we're able to work well together in so many ways. And I think it really does stem from having that deep respect for each other's gifts, and we're able to really be very upfront with each other when we don't like something or when we question it. And I'm not married to my way doing it my way. I'm really looking at the bigger picture. I want a paper orchestra to be great. What's going to serve that? And I think we both have that in mind. And in terms of the tour and taking it on the road, I mean, I think you're more than ready to perform it. And I'm so excited for people to be able to experience it in that way as well.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's a different kind of, that's why, because the show, it is a theatrical show. And I do think there's something more intimate about, people say, can't you record it and play it? Yeah, I could, but

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, that's the audio book. But that audio book is going to be different.

Michael Jamin:

But in terms of even recording the stage show, you'll miss the intimacy of being right in front of me, being in the room and feeling the energy. You don't feel the energy. That's probably the thing with tv, it's great. It's a wonderful form, but you don't have the same energy as you do seeing live theater. And I wish there's a better way because many people don't want to see live theater, but it's different. It's a different experience. Good theater is great. Bad theater is terrible. That's why it runs the whole gamut. There's that expression. Nothing lasts forever except for bad theater, and that's because of the energy. So it goes both ways.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And when we were working together on the audiobook the first time, we were trying to convey that performance that we do live. And after listening to it again and showing, having our daughter, Lola, listen to it, and her listening to literally the first three minutes, and I had already edited the whole thing. She was like, oh no, this isn't, I can't, you got to bring it down. And we were like, yeah, I had a feeling because when I was editing it, I was like, I don't know. I dunno about this. We just got to see.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, we had to do it again because we wanted the performance to be more intimate because you're listening to it on headphones or alone in the car, and it's a different, you're not listening it in a group of people, which is what the theater show is. So I'm literally in your head because you're wearing headphones. We had to bring everything down and make the performance much more intimate. It's a different, and we'll have to see how that affects my next performance with my live show.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

You're totally different. I know, totally. But see, when you say we had to bring it down, I don't like saying it like that because it makes it sound like it's sleepy and it's not.

Michael Jamin:

You had to bring it more

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Intimate. But it's like I really wanted, it's more like you contained the energy. They took this kind of energy that needs to project out, and we harnessed it and shoved it into a little two 12 by 12 area inches.

Michael Jamin:

But this is all acting stuff that I could not have done without you because you're an actor. I have couldn't have figured this out on my own, I don't think.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

No, I think it would've been really hard because your tendency when you would just start to read it before I would kind of steer you in the right direction or go, oh, you're going down the wrong path. Let me take you over here. That's pretty much all I needed to do in those moments. But your natural tendency was to just start reading it. And I'm like, where are you? I don't hear your personality. I'm not engaged in the story because you are not connected to it. So it really required the same amount of energy, Michael, that does for you to do this on stage, but you had to have the same amount of energy but contain it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I mean, it's a whole different art to it, not an actor. So I had to learn how to do, how perform it to keep people engrossed in it. So I dunno, it's a fun performance. We want to travel because this is what we want to do next. We want to travel together and put it up and continue. So if anyone wants to come see it, you can go to michael jamin.com/upcoming and enter your city, and then we'll let you know. When we get to your city, we're figuring out how to, this is the next thing we're figuring out how to actually make it happen so we can do this effectively. Bring it to people's, bring the theater because it's a whole, again, people will say to me, whoa, can you sell it as a tv? Maybe it could be a TV show, maybe it could be a movie. And I'm always thinking about, why can't it just be a book? Why can't it be an audio book? Why can't it be a theatrical show as if TV or movies is somehow better than the experience that we're creating now? I don't think it is. And I work in television and film, I don't think it's better.

I think there's a betterness to what we have.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, there's a pureness to it. There's something very simple and pure and the pacing of it. Everything is consumed so quickly right now, and it's almost too much. It's just too much. And what this does is it helps us to slow down. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

There's a power in the pause. There's so much energy that you can portray. This is something that took me a while to have confidence to do, but you can act. You're talking, you're saying you're doing whatever, the whole dog and pony show, but in leaving that pause and saying nothing, there's this anticipation and the audience is just waiting for it. And it's like a loaded gun.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah. I don't like that analogy, but what is it? Well, it's like you're on the edge of your seat and you've got us in your hands, and we're just captive. We're a captive audience. Time stands still. Time stands still, and we're just with you. And it really is allowing our being to kind of just be in that moment. It crystallizes the moments. And those are the moments in theater that why it's so impactful is because we're in this communal experience together where we're experiencing time at the same time, and we're also being together at the same time. It's very profound. And I remember working with you on the audio book and you were really hesitant to take us with you. I remember that. I kept saying, take us with you, Michael. It was like, but I'm going too slow or I'm going too fast. Or it was like, it didn't matter. The pacing. I would arbitrarily tell you, take us with you. And you would say, but I am. I go, yeah, but even if you're slow, or even if you're fast, the intention is to connect with us and make sure that we're with you. And it's hard on an audiobook because there's no audience, but with an audience, you can feel.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But with the audience too, I'm in front of a bright light. I don't see them. I can sense them, but I can't see anybody. But

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

That's what's important is you sensing it. You can totally sense it. You can sense it because you can hear the Oh or that, or you can hear laugh, or you can hear the silence is different than a regular silence. It's like a pin drop.

Michael Jamin:

There's that moment at the end of the Marissa disclaimer where I confess to something and the audience is so disappointed. I remember the first time we performed it, they were just like, oh,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

We all go. Oh

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Everyone was so disappointed in me. But that's so effective about it, is that they were along for the ride. And yeah, and that's another thing. You gave me a couple of things that helped me before each show. You printed out Ellie Zen's, what is it called?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Letter to the actor.

Michael Jamin:

Letter to the actor. And I read it before where I talk about, where he talks about what my responsibility is to the audience as a performer, what my responsibility is. And so it doesn't feel, it's not like, because it can come off as being self-absorbed acting. It could come off as being narcissistic. Look at me. But you can't look at it that way. You have to look at it as this is what I have to do in order to give you what you want,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

A gift. You have to give the audience a gift, and you have that responsibility to leave it all on the stage. And when you're an actor, it's no longer about you, Michael. It's about the words on the page. And you need to fulfill those words on the page. And as an actor, we're taught that the words are sacred. We don't change the words. We don't try and outthink the words. They are everything. And our job is to bring that to life and bring ourselves to the piece.

Michael Jamin:

And it's exhausting, though, at the end of the show. It is exhausting. Don't people appreciate how much energy I have to be in every moment so as not to check out or phone in, or just at the end of the night, I'm exhausted from an hour show. It's like, God,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And you're not expected. It's impossible in a way. And the greatest actors will say this too, that it is a job. So what do you do if you're not feeling it? And in that moment, you're thinking about what you're going to have for dinner, or, oh my God, I can't wait to just go home and lie down because it requires so much energy. And what you do is you go with that truth inside. I don't even want to be here right now. You use the truth of what you're feeling in that moment, and that brings you back into the piece. You have to connect to something real. Whereas if you're denying it and you're going, oh my God, I suck right now. I need to force myself to have this energy, then you're going to overcompensate and you're going to force it. And it's not going to be truthful. But if you really go into the moment of like, ah, damn, I'm just, I got nothing. I feel nothing. How does that make you feel? Feels pretty shitty. All right. I'm just going to say the next line from this place, because this is where I'm at. And then it takes off. Then you're off again. I mean,

Michael Jamin:

But what if the line, you're not supposed to feel shitty on

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

It. The audience buys it because the audience knows truth. As long as you're truthful, we're going to take however you read it and go, oh, that must be what that means. Oh, the character must feel this way. They're not going, oh, Michael.

Michael Jamin:

But the character is not supposed to feel the character's excited to be at a party,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But it could look like this. Oh my God, I am so excited to be here. It could look really intense and focused when I'm feeling like God damnit, I'm not feeling anything. Instead of the idea of, oh my God, and I'm so happy to be here. Why does it have to come out that way? Even if I came out and was like, I'm really excited to be here. What does that come out? It could come across. I'm a little nervous or I'm excited. I'm afraid to show

Michael Jamin:

It. But it feels truthful. You're saying?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yes, as long as it's rooted in some kind of truth, the audience will interpret it however it needs to go with the

Michael Jamin:

Story. This is some high level directing shit for people,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Don't you think? Yeah. I mean, I appreciate that. I think a lot of it to me is very, how I was trained was always going with what is. And you hear a noise, somebody, it's not about everybody being quiet all the time and oh

Michael Jamin:

My God. So what happens if you hear a noise backstage during your show,

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

You incorporate it. Even if you don't want to draw attention to it, you as the actor, because the audience is all going to hear it. So if you hear that, I have to just kind of go, all right, I don't have to comment on it. I just have to take that moment and allow it to be there. Because again, if you deny it,

Michael Jamin:

But doesn't that break the fourth wall? If you hear a banging backstage and then you turn your head and you acknowledge it, it's backstage.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

But it could be if you're the character and you hear something backstage, that's the world you're in. It could be in the next room.

Michael Jamin:

You have to, if you don't acknowledge it, if you don't acknowledge, it's like, well, why aren't they acknowledging?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And then there's a giant elephant in the room and stuff like props falling over. Oh my God. There'd be the worst thing an actor could do. One of the worst things is like their hat falls off and it's not supposed to fall off. And the whole time it's sitting in the middle of the stage, the audience is worried about the hat. Now we're going to be thinking about the hat. So the worst thing an actor can do is to deny that the hat fell off. You know what I mean? Use it. Use all of it. All it is for the moment to fuel you. And sometimes the best. When I was on friends, David Schwimmer and I were rehearsing our scene. You did a bad thing. Very bad. Very, very bad. Yes, I know that scene. And we were rehearsing it and we screwed up, but we didn't sit there and go, oh, wait a minute.

We screwed up the line. Let's take it back. No, you just go with it. And Marta and David, the show creators were standing right off to the side, and they're like, wait a minute, guys, what happened there? It was like, yeah, we screwed up the lines. Well, that's going in. We're going to do it that way now. And so the best, the happy accidents are when you don't plan it and you're going with it. And Michael, you have some amazing moments in the audio book where you can't speak. You're so full of emotion that you can't speak. And I've listened to it a number of times in my car, and my heart goes into my throat because I can't see you. And a lot of times I don't remember. It always catches me by surprise that that moment is happening. And I think, oh my God, did the audio track drop out? Because there's such a stillness. And then all of a sudden you come back in and your next line is just, you can barely even talk. And that resonates through the frigging speaker. We're not even seeing you. That's how powerful our emotion is if we just allow it to take us and to trust it. And it's transformative. It

Michael Jamin:

Really is a time machine for me, because when I'm retelling those stories, it's like I'm living it again. Again. And people, the funny thing is, people after that show, when I do this, some of those stories, people are worried about me.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. Because that's what IA Kaza talks about, is you just leave it all on the stage. Yeah. Because why else are you there? Why are you there? If you're not going to go there, then why are you there?

Michael Jamin:

That's why I feel like one of the things that I like about personal essays, which is so hard to explain to people, but when they read it, they get it. Is that a novel? The characters are made up. They're fictitious. And the worst thing that can happen to your charact, they'll die. But again, they're just made up, so everything's fine. Your favorite made up character just had something horrible. Again, they're just made up. But with these personal essays, I feel the stakes are higher. I feel like it's a unique art form because the stakes, it's a real person telling real stories about themselves. The stakes are higher because they're not made up.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And that's the beauty of you performing your own work too, is that you can really shine in that way. You don't have to worry about becoming a character, putting something on, but I think it is hard for you because you have to psyche yourself up to really go there. It's like your energy has to be up. You have to be willing to investigate that. And if you're not feeling it, you got to go with the truth that you're not feeling it it. Then see where that leads you. It's scary.

Michael Jamin:

It's also, the funny thing is I don't really have any desire to do anybody else's to act in someone else's show. I don't have a desire to become an actor. It's just really more like I have a desire to pursue this art.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

And why do you feel the pinch to want to perform it? And I've asked you this in the end of the audio book too, but it's not so much. What is it in you that needs to be seen and heard, or

Michael Jamin:

I'm not entirely clear on it. I just want to, I suppose it's because, and I'm very happy. I've had a long and successful career as a TV writer, but part of me also feels like there's just something missing from what I write.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's similar to when I was a dancer. I was like, I need more expression than this. I have to act now because dancing just is part of the expression, but it's not allowing me to fully express everything. So maybe performing is part of that for you. It's not enough to just have people read it or listen to it. You want to experience it with them. You need that connection, that expression.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I guess. And I also, I kind of want to just do something special. That's all. Because I wonder sometimes before when I go on, I go, why am I doing this? I just want to create something special that people will like. And I think people get it from the book and the audio book, so it's not necessary. I don't think it's necessary for me to perform, but maybe it's a plus. I don't know.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah. I think more will be revealed as they say. You'll see why. And that's another thing about following those creative impulses. I know because I have this hindsight with Twirly Girl, after doing it for 15 years, I can honestly look back and say that I would've never expected to have experienced what I experienced in the way that all the gifts that it brought me, there's no way I could have predicted that. And I think it's the same thing here. You just don't know where it's going to lead you, but you feel the need to do it. And I think that's enough. I think that's all you need, honestly. It takes on a life of its own too.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. We'll see where it goes, but we'll just put energy into it and see where it goes.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yes. Onto the next project. But this project now,

Michael Jamin:

Well, maybe that, is that where we conclude this podcast? Is there anything else to cover?

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

I don't know. I don't know anything else for you.

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. I'm very grateful for all your help doing this. I couldn't do any of this without you. And for everyone listening, it really helps if you have someone helping you with whatever your project is, it does help a lot. And so you have to find the right person, whoever that is.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Well, I'm so grateful for you and everything that you've brought me, and this is just a joy and everything I want it to be. It is. And I'm so happy to be working with you.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you're sweet. Alright, everyone, there you go. A paper orchestra signed copies are available@michaeljamin.com. You can also find the link to the paperback, the ebook, the audiobook, the audiobooks on Audible, Spotify, and Apple. It's called The Paper Orchestra, produced and directed by Cynthia.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Yeah, but here's the thing, guys. If you want to see him in person, we would love to meet you. So keep in touch with us.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, sign up at michael jamin.com/upcoming. Okay, everyone, thank you again. Thank you, Cynthia.

Cynthia Mann Jamin:

Thank you, Michael. I love you.

Michael Jamin:

I love you.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. I did it again, another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I love the Journey. And Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

Show Notes

A Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/book

A Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1

A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4

A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Michael Jamin:

Everyone wants to be a showrunner, which is again, why it's so freaking

Michael Jamin:

Hard. I want to make all the decisions, but you don't know based on what you

Michael Jamin:

Don't know what you're doing. Why would you want that? Is it an ego thing you want to tell people you're a showrunner or don't you want to learn? Do you assume? When I was starting off, I didn't want to be a showrunner for 10 years. I didn't want to be a show runner. Like, this is a hard job. I don't know how to do it.

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.

Michael Jamin:

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, we're doing another q and a from one of our webinars and my special guest host is Kevin Lewandowski, script coordinator extraordinaire. He helps out with a lot of my projects, social media projects here and he's subbing in for Phil and he's doing a great job. So welcome Kevin.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Thank you again for having me.

Michael Jamin:

You screwed it up. You already screwed. No, I'm only messing with you. You're doing great. Thanks.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah, I'm not going to apologize for not being Phil anymore, so fair Phil. But no, I'm happy to be here and this how professional screenwriters overcome Writer's Block is one of my favorite topics to talk about. Oh good. So I think it's super, super interesting and there's been, when we dive into it, I'll say my favorite line that you always say that just unlocked the excuse sometimes we use for when we have writer's block.

Michael Jamin:

I'm curious to know what your favorite line is.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Alright, I have so many Michael Jainism that I think my all time favorite is Shit Happening is not a story.

Michael Jamin:

By the way, we have that on merch now, guys. Yeah, we do. We got merch and you can go get it@michaeljamin.com/merch where all the crazy things that I say, you can get it on a on mug or a notebook or whatever. We got merge. Go get it. I should have plugged it before, but I forgot. But anyway, these questions came from our last webinar that we did and if you're not on my webinar list, sign up for it's free. Go to michael jamin.com/webinar and you can sign up. You can be invited when we do our next one. And so yeah, Kevin, we had a lot of questions people asked. We didn't have time to get all the questions answered and so here they are n

Kevin Lewandowski:

Here we go. These first couple of questions are going to be about kind of course related stuff. So this first one is from David Zilo. I feel like we see his name a lot. I feel like he comes to these webinars a lot and ask a lot of questions. The question is, how does the story structure change when say a character does not, cannot achieve a goal in the tragic story, for example,

Michael Jamin:

Doesn't change at all. It's the same old story structure that we use. Whether the character achieves their goal at the end or not, it's the same damn thing.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yep.

Michael Jamin:

The guys you're just asking, he's just asking at the end, what if the last two minutes are different, so what? Nothing.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah, I think it's always more interesting for me when that character doesn't achieve their goal. I think the breakup with, but yeah, Vince v and Jennifer Ston, they don't stay together in the end. No. It's one of the few rom-coms that I think they decide to go off the beaten path and not have

Michael Jamin:

Them end often. We call this the joyful defeat in a movie or the character doesn't get what they want, but they get what they need. Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Next question, Rob. Robert, when is the latest the stakes should be made clear?

Michael Jamin:

The sooner the better because the story does not start until the audience knows what's at stake. And so until then you're boring them and you're daring them to change the channel or read another script or do something else with their time. So the sooner the better, and that's a note you'll get from a network executive. They'll always say, can we start the story sooner? And so wherever you have it, they'll give you that note. If it's on page four, they'll say page two.

Kevin Lewandowski:

In your experience, is there a realistic, for instance, if they were like, oh, it's on page three, we need it on page two, have you ever run into We just can't. We need a little bit of room to be able to

Michael Jamin:

Set

Kevin Lewandowski:

Something

Michael Jamin:

Up. Absolutely. And so you'll move it up a little bit, but sometimes there's only so much you can do.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. But yeah, like you said, they'll always say, oh, can we start this sooner? Yeah, we'll take a look at it. We'll take a look at that. Coley Marie, can the goal change or appear to change?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yes. And often it sometimes will. It's like because something happens and what the character thought they wanted is not what they want anymore. So yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

So how do you feel about, because sometimes it's, is there a fear of if you start writing it too much of a change, can it almost feel like, oh, okay, now we're following a different story to,

Michael Jamin:

It usually happens kind of like an act top of act three with the character discoveries. This thing that I wanted turns out I don't really want any. I got what I thought I wanted and it's not what I want. So that's usually late in the script.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. So you're saying in top of act two, if they wanted to,

Michael Jamin:

It wouldn't be top of

Kevin Lewandowski:

Act ride a pony at the end of act one. Top of Act two should be like, well, I want to win this prize at the Carnival

Michael Jamin:

Now. Yeah, top of act two is one. Well, this is what we teach in the course. What tab of Act two would be, so yeah,

Kevin Lewandowski:

Arius Kennedy. So should we avoid high stakes conflicts?

Michael Jamin:

No. The higher stakes are good. High stakes are good. Higher the stakes are better. You want to avoid low stakes conflicts.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah, low stakes conflicts are not that interesting. Heather Marie, vital, how do we find conflicts for TV shows with main characters without getting stale? That's kind of the job of a writer.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's right. That's exactly, that's the job without getting stale, it's like, and again, this is not her concern. Concern. Your concern is to do it once and then let's a showrunner worried about it getting stale. Right now your job is to write one great script

Kevin Lewandowski:

Are Barry, when it comes to an episodic show, there's the overall show conflict and then the mini conflicts of the episodes. So I'm assuming they're talking about, there's the A story, the B story, the C story,

Michael Jamin:

Or maybe they're talking about the overall arch of the show. I'm watching Show Gun right now and I'm only on episode one, so it seems like the overarching stories, how is this one? I dunno if he called the futile Lord going to maintain his position in the kingdom, but within each episode he has a challenge that he has to overcome, so to make that larger prop goal happen.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Meg Parker Wilson, when you are writing a TV show, do you plot out the entire story pilot to finale and then create all those moments episode by episode in terms of the arc and the structure?

Michael Jamin:

No, it's too much work. It's too difficult. What you really, and again, this is not something that she needs to worry about, but maybe she's just asking me out of curiosity, we'll come up with a pilot and we'll have that pilot broken. We know what that story is going to be and then we have a vague idea of what season one might be. But I'm talking vague, just enough to bullshit our way through this because it'll change when we're breaking the story. As we discover writing and digging into the character, we'll discover something that might be better. So what are we going to do? Not do it just because we said we were talking out of our ass that this other thing was going to be better,

Kevin Lewandowski:

Right? Yeah. I think Vince Gilian, creator of Breaking Bad, I think he says something very similar. Yeah, we kind of have an idea, but part of going through different story ideas is you discover stuff along the way. Jesse Pinkman was only supposed to be four or five episodes, and then now they realize how much chemistry those two characters had. And could you imagine, would that show have worked if they would've killed off Jesse Pinkman? Because they said, well, we said our pitch, we have to kill em off after five episodes. We have to stick with that.

Michael Jamin:

I'm always surprised that people don't know that and they're worried about breaking the entire series. It's like, but breaking one episode of television when I'm talking breaking, figuring out what the story is and writing the outline in the script is so much work. How could you possibly do all that in advance and you have a team of writers doing all that work.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Sometimes you'll see people that'll talk about, yeah, I have this TV series I wrote and I have the first eight episodes done, and I'm like, oh, that's a lot to do with

Michael Jamin:

No they

Kevin Lewandowski:

Don't. One person,

Michael Jamin:

They really don't. They might have enough for one episode and they broke it up into eight episodes. They don't know any better. That's very common. I think

Kevin Lewandowski:

I remember there's another example on friends that one of the writers was talking about. It's probably one of the more iconic moments of the whole series is when Ross is getting married to Emily and Rachel shows up and he ends up, he accidentally says Rachel's name, I Ross take the Rachel. And the writer was saying that wasn't anything we would've ever thought of. It was one day we were rehearsing or something like that. And he accidentally said the wrong name. And as writers, we all laughed and we thought that's super funny. He was like, we had the aha moment of like, oh, we need to include this. And that little moment had so much of a change for the rest of the series. Now it turned into, well, Emily will make them now. Okay. It's clear that Ross is still in love with Rachel and Emily. She's only going to come to New York if Ross stops talking to Rachel. So it was just that little moment of discovery and what would that scene or storyline have been if Ross married Emily

Michael Jamin:

And they discovered that by accident and rehearsal and what are you going to do not do with this and that, that moment everyone gasped in the audience and people at home gasped. So what you not going to do it?

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah, and I don't think in their pitch they're like, okay, season five we're going to have Ross marry this British girl, but when he is actually up there, we're going to have him say Rachel's thing. It was just discovery.

Michael Jamin:

You don't think that far in advanced. You can't. It's too much work.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Let's see. So this next question from Sarah, there's a bit of terminology from your course, so I'm going to not use that terminology, but does the end of act two have to be in direct relation to the conflict with the introduced in the first act? Can it be attributed to a different relationship conflict?

Michael Jamin:

No, no, no. Pretty much no. If you're telling one story that's your A story or your act two break to be on the A story. If it's coming out of nowhere and it's like, what's this? It's not going to feel earned. It's going to be like, what's going on?

Kevin Lewandowski:

Rob, Robert again, how do we make funny? Because it can be so subjective.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. One thing I say is in my course, I can't teach you how to be funny. I can maybe teach you how to be a little funnier. I could give you tips that will help you be a little funnier, but if you're not funny, I can't help you be funny. It's okay. You can write drama. There's plenty of work for drama writers and just write what you're really good at. But it is a little heartbreaking. I see sometimes when people, I want to be accommodator, but you're not funny, so you don't have that in you. That's okay. Write some other stuff. Drama's great too.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. One of my other favorite things you say, and this wasn't the one I was talking about earlier, is you have to find new ways to say old things in a funny way. Yeah. Every version of a joke has been told to a degree. So how do you make it relevant to today and your story and your characters and make it so it hasn't been heard that way before.

Michael Jamin:

You know what though? I just got an email from, I don't know how I'm on this list, whatever. I got an email from a writer and she's doing a public appearance and she said, come see me the headline, come see me. I don't bite. And I'm like, oh God, you're supposed to be a writer. Don't tell me you don't bite. That's so unoriginal. That's so clammy. That's not something a writer should ever say. Find a new way to say, I don't bite. I was so unimpressed. I was like, oh God, you just embarrass yourself. Don't do that. You're a writer. You have to find a new way to say old things.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. Okay, so these are kind of more craft related questions, Nathan Shapiro, what are the rookie mistakes you see new writers making both in writing as well as from the business side. What is something you wish you had known when you were starting out? And then part two, which I think this is actually part three, do all supporting lead characters need an obstacle and goal? Or is it sufficient that they're simply there to facilitate the main hero's journey?

Michael Jamin:

This guy's got

Kevin Lewandowski:

Questions. We'll split this up. So the first part was what are the rookie mistakes you see new writers making both in writing as well as from the business side.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, a rookie mistake in the writer's room is what we call when they bitch instead of pitch. The expression is pitch, don't bitch. So it's very easy for a new writer to shoot down an idea in the room without having a better one because it's hard to come up with a better one. So that's a rookie thing. I don't care if the idea on the table is bad, if you don't have a better one, shut up because it's what are you there for? You're not a critic. Your job is to make it better, not to say this is bad. And

Kevin Lewandowski:

Also don't defend your joke if the showrunner doesn't think it's good. If you put something, they're like, ah, I don't really know. Okay, that's it.

Michael Jamin:

Don't

Kevin Lewandowski:

Fight for it. Don't just let it go. Think of a better one.

Michael Jamin:

What was the other question?

Kevin Lewandowski:

So the next one is, what is something you wish you had known when you were starting up?

Michael Jamin:

Well, to be honest, everything that I teach in the course, I didn't know any of it.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah, I think it's just, yeah, I mean, again, Michael's course has unlocked a lot for me and someone that's not a very intelligent person, he really simplifies it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, make it easy.

Kevin Lewandowski:

It's easy to understand. I don't understand the terminology of progressive complications and sight incidents, all that stuff. I

Michael Jamin:

Don't understand it either.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Any sense to me? I won't tell you what the terms are that Michael uses. You'll have to take this course, but they're much easier to

Michael Jamin:

Understand. Yeah, I think writing should be simple. It's not easy, but it's simple.

Kevin Lewandowski:

And then the last part of this question, do all supporting lead characters need an obstacle and goal, or is it sufficient that they're simply there to facilitate the main hero's journey?

Michael Jamin:

Well, often they are an obstacle in the main hero's journey. Sometimes if you don't give 'em too much to play, they can be the Greek chorus, but generally every character in a scene has to have an attitude on something, and if they don't wire in the scene, if they don't have, they're not just there to stand around. Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

So do you also think when in the context of the story structure that you teach in your class, those B stories that aren't necessarily as emotionally empowering as what the A story is, do you think it should still follow all those structure points or just enough or doesn't really matter?

Michael Jamin:

No, a b story doesn't carry the same emotional weight as the A story. So it doesn't actually have to carry, it doesn't have to be structured the way an A story is, but stuff does have to happen and it can't be random. It has to be on that story that we're following.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Okay. Next question. If it's an ensemble cast, like Orange is a new black or stranger things, does each character have to have a stake or only a main character? So very similar to this

Michael Jamin:

Question. Yeah, usually you're following. I mean, I haven't watched Stranger Things in a long time. Maybe they have two or three running storylines in each episode. I don't know. They probably do.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Who is the hero in horror movies like Friday the 13th? Is it Jason or the person who survives at the end?

Michael Jamin:

Well, you're not rooting for Jason. You're not rooting for him to murder everybody. And again, I haven't seen those Friday the 13th movies, but you're rooting for the person in the summer camp.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Michael. Is there such thing as an anti-hero?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, of course there is, and I talk about that, but the problem is I think it's unnecessarily complicated. What's interesting, an anti-hero and a hero. Why don't you just call it a hero and make it easier on yourself? Oh, because your anti-hero is a little bit unlikeable or a little bit dirty or villainous. Well, that's okay. There's still a hero.

Kevin Lewandowski:

I think there was an example you used of if you're writing something about the devil, him being what we all think the devil is, that's not interesting. You make him where he has compassion with some things and you give him layers like Sopranos. You talk about the example as well, and I think it's those villains are, they're the hero in their own story. We may not agree with it. They're the hero in their own story though. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

I think Tony Swan, I don't think he's an anti-hero. I think he's a hero.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Okay, next question. Do you have to know the end when you start the story? Can it change?

Michael Jamin:

And often it does. You'll get often it does. Often it does, but usually when we're breaking a story on the board in the writer's room, no one sent off to outline or script until we know what the ending is. But it's not uncommon to get a draft back and you go, you know what? This ending isn't working. Let's figure out a new Act three.

Kevin Lewandowski:

And in your experience, do you think for something like the ending doesn't feel right, do you think that was potentially because it wasn't broken in the best way? Or do you think the writer didn't maybe necessarily deliver the dialogue the right way?

Michael Jamin:

Well, often problems in act three requires solutions in Act one. So in other words, it wasn't set up right. The ending wasn't set up early, and so it's unusual to say, okay, all we have to do is fix Act three. No, you got to fix all of it.

Kevin Lewandowski:

And that's when you have the really late nights and you do dinner in the writer's room, which everyone hates when that PA comes around is All right. What does everyone want for dinner?

Michael Jamin:

Yep.

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and carcass Review says Those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show

Kevin Lewandowski:

From Rachel. It helps to do homework before even writing. Yes. If you're new to fantasy, read some fantasy scripts or books first.

Michael Jamin:

Sure, a lot as much as you can, but I'd also ask you why you want to write fantasy then, if you've never read any or what's attracting to you, to you if you don't even know anything about it.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Next question. What's with the job titles that writers end up with? What do the different kinds of jobs actually cover?

Michael Jamin:

So there's different levels to writers. They're just ranks and in terms of how much it's big pay grades basically. So the lowest level writer is called a staff writer. Even though everyone, it's confusing because every writer on staff is a staff writer, but the lowest level writer has the title of staff writer. Then the next higher up is called story editor, then executive story editor, then co-producer, producer, supervising producer, co-executive producer, executive producer, the executive producer's the showrunner, and so they're the boss and everyone else. They're just different levels that determines how much you're going to get paid. Often it determines how much responsibility you have. If the showrunner leaves the room, often it's the co-executive producer who will run the room in their proxy or they'll do the set, they'll work on the set, they'll do whatever that's based on their experience. But in terms of job responsibilities, other than that, it's really up to the S to determine how much they want. Maybe they'll say if someone's a producer, they may let them go to the set on their own. I mean, it just depends on the showrunner, what they want them to do.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. One of the shows I worked on, I think we talked about this in the last podcast, Steve Rudnick, who wrote Space Jam and Santa Claus movies. He was a supervising producer on The Muppets, and he spent a lot of time on set and he really liked it. It's just fascinating to watch how those puppeteers can

Michael Jamin:

Do

Kevin Lewandowski:

Their stuff. Next question from Steven. Can stream of consciousness work for screenwriting?

Michael Jamin:

Sounds terrible to me. I'm not a fan of stream of consciousness. I'm not really interested in reading your thoughts. If you're going to take me someplace, take me by the hand and lead me there. To be honest, just going to say it right now, I feel stream of consciousness is masturbatory. I feel like it's for yourself and no one else, but I could be. Someone else may enjoy it.

Kevin Lewandowski:

So when you say hold my hand, because I think there's also this, people sometimes assume, well, well, I don't want to put that on the page. It's just going to take a page. The audience will get, the audience will understand what I'm going for, and I think is there that fine line of figuring out, okay, what do I need to hold the hand of the audience through versus what do I think they're going to be able to pick up?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I like to write. When I'm writing, I like to check in with the audience, let 'em know. Yeah. When I say hold their hand, let them know. Remind them what's at stake here. This character wants, I'd like to just check. So it's not a mystery. Now, often that's the difference between sometimes you'll see a really smart writing, they won't kind of do that. They expect a little more of the audience. It just depends on what kind of show you're doing. If you're doing a broad silly show, you check in with the audience knowing that that's not what they're there for. They're there for something silly and fun. You got to keep checking in with them. But I just saw a zone of interest, which is really smart, and they didn't check in with the audience, and that might win. The Oscars a wonderful movie also. That's not a movie for the masses. I don't think it's going to be a movie that's a blockbuster. It was a great movie though.

Kevin Lewandowski:

What are the stakes of 2001 a Space Odyssey?

Michael Jamin:

God, I haven't seen it in forever. What were the stakes was the guy I am trying to remember. They went on a spaceship. They had a mission, but then the computer was sabotaging the mission and there was going to basically, I think the computer was going to kill them, basically take 'em on a mission that would kill them. Is that that I remember. So the stakes were life or death.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Those are pretty mistakes.

Michael Jamin:

And how do we defeat the computer? Who's the boss of the whole thing? How do we fool the computer? I believe that's what it was, right? It was a long time ago.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah, it's been a while since I've seen that, and I guess if they don't, they die.

Michael Jamin:

I think so, yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Next question. How would you recommend doing a man versus a system conflict, like perhaps is seen in Cool Hand Luke?

Michael Jamin:

Well, I mean, yeah, that was the whole thing. He wanted to get out of prison. They were trying to, and again, I haven't seen that in 10, 12 years. I don't remember. He was in prison and the system was trying to break him down. Right? That's like anything you escape from Alcatraz to the same thing. How do we get out of this prison? So yeah, but I'm trying to remember in Cool Luke, there was probably a face to the system. It wasn't like a system. I'm guessing it there was a warden or something, or there were other inmates who was the face of the system trying to remember. They called me off guard.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. So I was thinking about when you said I was Shawshank Redemption, and I think it's, yeah, there's the system, but then kind of the warden represents the system. In that context,

Michael Jamin:

There was the warden and then the warden's proxy, the guard, and there were definitely, it wasn't so much the system. They were faces of the system. Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Okay. Can the conflict be hidden from the hero? The hero thinks they want control money, but they really don't want to be alone because they were abandoned as a kid.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I mean, all of that is fine, but your hero is not going to want a hero. Wanting money is not a reputable goal. Who cares? So what your hero wants it sounds like, is companionship. If they're abandoned or or whatever. That's what they're really wanting. So yeah, I mean, all of that is fine, but I'm not sure why it's not hidden for the, yeah,

Kevin Lewandowski:

I think thinking about breaking bad, I think a lot of people would think, well, Walter White wanted money. No, that's

Michael Jamin:

Not what he wanted. Walter White wanted to provide for his family. He was going to be dead soon, so it wasn't the money he wanted. What he wanted was very reputable. He wants to give his family something so they could live when he's dead to, because he can't provide for them. So it wasn't like he wanted a new Ferrari,

Kevin Lewandowski:

And I think that slightly eventually morphed into he just wants to maintain being powerful.

Michael Jamin:

Well, then it turned into something else. Then he went down this path of it was about power and control, and he went down that, but that was only seasons into it.

Kevin Lewandowski:

AI and equalizer for skill and creativity in this competitive era of artists?

Michael Jamin:

I don't think so. I think ai, I guess it's a cheat code if you want to be a writer, if you wanted to be a race car driver, you'd learn how to race, car drive, and you'd go to courses and classes and you'd be really good at shifting and all that stuff and understand the apex of a curve and how to attack a curve. Or I suppose you could get behind the wheel of a Tesla and put it on autopilot and you could just fall asleep. But why do you want to be a race car driver then if that's what you aspire to do? Do you just want to be a dummy in the wheel of the car?

Kevin Lewandowski:

I think one of the other things you always say too is AI may never be able to write true human emotion and never be able to really write what my personal stories have been my life. And I think until it can do that, I think we're fine.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, we'll see. They're doing some, I guess, crazy amazing things, and I don't know. We'll see. But I'm not sure. I don't know why you or any other aspiring writer would want that. I would think you would want to root against that.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Oh yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I think, don't you want to write stories? Don't you want to be the author of the stories, don't you? Isn't that why you want to be a writer, to take what's inside of you and express it in a way that entertains people? Or do you want to be just the person who plugs the computer in the morning and say You're a writer?

Kevin Lewandowski:

And I think about the writer strike we all went through, and that was a huge topic of conversation, and writers took a sacrifice to stop this from happening to help protect writers that are going to be coming up. And I think it's probably going to be an ongoing battle for a while.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, the world's changing fast. Yeah. Scary.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. Too fast.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, too fast.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Is it possible to have two showrunners attached to one project, the creator of the show, and one more experienced showrunner?

Michael Jamin:

No. I mean, they're not going to be equal. I mean, I suppose anything's possible, but it's very unlikely. I've been on shows where someone, a younger writer created it and then they assigned a showrunner. And the showrunner on that one show, the showrunner was very gracious, and he included this young writer and a lot of the decisions, and it wasn't like he made it a partnership as best as he could, but at the end of the day, he was still the boss. Someone has to be the boss, but he was very gracious about how he treated this young writer and he really wanted to mentor him. But again, when you're a mentor, that means more than the other person.

Kevin Lewandowski:

And you and Seaver have run shows together, right?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But we're a partnership, so that's a little different. But this person is talking about one person created another one. Everyone wants to be a showrunner, which is again, why it's so freaking hard. I want to make all the decisions, but you don't know based on what you don't know what you're doing. Why would you want that? Is it an ego thing you want to tell people you're a showrunner or don't you want to learn? Do you assume? When I was starting off, I didn't want to be a showrunner for 10 years. I didn't want to be a showrunner. This is a hard job. I don't know how to do it. And then you get to the point in your career where it's like, it's either that or unemployment. So I'm like, all right, sign me up for showrunner.

Kevin Lewandowski:

What, even with that, the rooms I've been in, you just see how many meetings that the showrunners have to be in that aren't necessarily directly related to the writing and the story. It's costume stuff, it's hair and makeup stuff. It's set pieces. It's all these different things that they have the final, final approval on and

Michael Jamin:

And that's the easy part, all that stuff

Kevin Lewandowski:

Breaking in. Any advice for being hired in a writer's room without coming up with an original show idea? Or do you have to bring an original idea to an interview?

Michael Jamin:

No, you don't have to. You can write a script on an existing show. You can write a great Game of Thrones spec script, and as long as the showrunner wants to read it and thinks it's great, you're hired.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. Do you think in today's world, from what I've heard, spec scripts sort of aren't really a thing anymore. Do you think a lot of that has to do with just because there's so much out there that if I'm like, here, Michael, here's a specs on whatever show, there's a real chance that I've never heard of the show.

Michael Jamin:

Yes, that's exactly, and that's why, that's why I think it's unfair. I mean, life is unfair, but that's why I think it's harder today than it was back when I was breaking in. Because you could write a spec sip on an existing show on er, and everyone knew what ER was. Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

It's interesting too, because then I've heard you say this too before, if you're running whatever show and it's in season two or season three, and you're interviewing me and you read my original pilot, you're more like, well, this is great, but I want to know, can you write my show? That's what I want you for. Your original pilot is cool, has nothing to do with my show. I want to know. Can you write my show? Do you have the character's personalities down?

Michael Jamin:

And it's harder to create an original show, a pilot. It's much harder, I feel, than creating a spec script of an existing show. That's the days we live in. What are we going to do?

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah, I think that might've been all of our questions for right now, but I did want to say, so the one thing I always take away when we talk about this is when writers overcome writer's block, something you always say is Writer's block isn't really a thing for professional writers. You don't get to say, I'm going to go to the beach for three days and clear my head. And if you're really struggling with the writer's block, chances are you don't necessarily have the structure down to a point. And that'll help unlock a lot of problems for you. And that's what Michael scor teaches is those structure points and what you need to know. And I think there's little instances of writer's block where if I'm just kind of like I'm a little frustrated, go for a walk for 15, 20 minutes, and I live by a mall here in Glendale, and it wasn't too long ago, I remember I was walking and I was just thinking about something.

I saw these two people, and it looked like it was a boyfriend and a girlfriend, and she had her Starbucks, and she was taking a picture of it, and someone bumped into her and she dropped it everywhere. And I just happened to see this interaction. And the guy, his reaction was kind of like, well, and I thought that was so fascinating because I was like, okay, what's the relationship between these two people? Because this is definitely not a first date. Because if it was a first date, he'd be like, oh my gosh, let me go get you a new one. And so then I was like, okay, so have they been dating for a while? Okay, then it's like, okay, well, if that was his reaction, has this happened so many times? He's just sick of her shit, always posting it to Instagram. He's like, I told you this was going to happen.

And then I start kind of building this story in my head of what if this is her moment where she's like, I'm going to break up with you. This is bullshit. You're laughing at something bad. That happened to me. And I remember coming back to my apartment that day, and I felt like more just relaxed and calm. I saw this live event unfold that I don't think anyone else was watching, but I just happened to see this unfold. And I don't think that was anything I could have really written. I think I would've wrote like, oh, she drops it. He picks it up. He wants to impress her because he wants to get laid later. But his reaction was like, yeah, I told him this shit happens all the time. Stop taking pictures. Just drink the damn coffee.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's good. You're observing. That's what you should be doing.

Kevin Lewandowski:

It's good. When I worked at a theme park,

Get a lot of material there from people, a lot of different personalities, I used to jot down a lot of stuff I used to see and just how people would interact. And it's nice to, when you kind of feel those moments of writing and you're kind of stuck, go back to those notes you took in that can help unlock something. I know you always show on your webinars, you have your black notebook that you've been carrying around your entire career and things people have taught you along the way, and you write 'em down in there. And that's just, that's gold right there.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Write it down. Keep a list of your, like what you're saying. Those specific things are just interesting.

Kevin Lewandowski:

And because you always say too, when you're driving, you don't really listen to the radio or anything. You just kind of talk with notes on your phone just to get it out there and start thinking about it. And

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, if I'm working on a story, I won't listen to the radio. I'll just obsess over this one moment I'm trying to fix in the story. And if I get it, great. Now, that was my writing for that morning was fixing that one problem. Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Well, I think that is all we have question wise, Michael. We

Michael Jamin:

Did

Kevin Lewandowski:

It. We did it.

Michael Jamin:

We did it. Thank you everyone. What else do we got to talk about? If you want to come to our free screenwriting webinars, you could sign up at michael jamin.com/webinar if you'd like to. I got a newsletter. Get on that Michael jamin.com/newsletter. And of course, we're unplugging my book, which I worked on for four and a half years. It's called the Paper Orchestra, and it asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? And someone asked me on the live, if I could explain it a little better what it is. And I think what the book, one way to explain it is imagine they're very personal and intimate stories, and I'm sharing them as if, imagine me reading my diary, but performing it out loud knowing that you are going to be watching it. And so I'm going to say it in a way that's going to be entertain you, but it's still my diary. But it's structured in a way, so it's like, I know I have an audience here. And so that's kind of what it is. They're stories, they're true stories, but hopefully they're told in a way that is engaging and makes you laugh and hopefully makes you feel something. It's more importantly.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. Yeah. So go to michael jamin.com, check out his book. There's a bunch of, just go to his website, michael jamin.com, click around. There's webinars, there's the podcast. Get uploaded there. There's a couple of free lessons you can download, scripts he's written. There's so much there. And like he said, that you can get his book there and you can get a signed copy from him on his website. And it's Amazon. It was when you originally launched it, it was number one in five different categories on Amazon, so it was pretty wild. So yeah, check out the book, join the class, join our webinars, follow Michael on social media. He's still giving out free tips and trying to help people. And yeah, that's all I got.

Michael Jamin:

Excellent. Alright. Thank you Kevin. Great job. And if they want to follow you, Kevin, where do they follow you on social media?

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah, so it's Kevin Lewandowski. It's a long last name, I'm sure after you just type the first five letters, it'll pop up.

Michael Jamin:

Excellent. Alright everyone, until next week, keep writing.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asked the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

Show Notes

A Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/book

A Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1

A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4

A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Michael Jamin:

Well, no one cares that you took my course, so zero. No one's going to be. That's why we don't give a diploma out because the diploma is worthless. No one really cares if you went where you studied, who taught you all they care about? Is the script good or not? Does it make them want to turn the page or not? Do they want to find out what happens next or not?

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.

Michael Jamin:

Hey everyone, welcome to a very special episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about. I'm here with my guest host Kevin Lewandowski, and he helps out a lot with the podcast, with all my social stuff, and he's actually by trade. He's a writer's assistant script coordinator, which is actually one step higher than writer's assistant, so he's worked on a bunch of shows. Kevin, welcome to the show.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Thank you for having me. Michael, for those of you, sorry I'm not Phil, I'm just kind of filling in for Phil for a couple days, but I'm excited to be here. And yeah, I hope to tell you all a little bit about script coordinating as well and what that all entails,

Michael Jamin:

Fill in and fulfill, fill

Kevin Lewandowski:

In and fulfill.

Michael Jamin:

What shows were you script coordinator on?

Kevin Lewandowski:

So the big one was Why Women Kill.

Michael Jamin:

Did we ever figure out why?

Kevin Lewandowski:

I mean, depending on who you ask, a lot of women will say because of men,

Michael Jamin:

They kill for ratings.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Right? Okay, that's better. But yeah, that was, I forgot how long ago that was, but that was, unfortunately we got canceled four or five days before we were supposed to start filming. Our actors had just landed in Canada and then the next day they announced they were pulling the plug on the show.

Michael Jamin:

Why?

Kevin Lewandowski:

It could be many reasons. I think a lot of it had to do with we were a little bit behind on scripts and then budgeting and we were still kind of in the midst of covid precautions and things like that.

Michael Jamin:

Covid, people don't realize, especially new showrunners, you don't mess with the budget. You get things done on time, Ross, you're screwed. What other shows did you work on then?

Kevin Lewandowski:

So the first show I ever worked on was in 2015. It was the Muppets, and it was funny. I thought if anyone ever caught a break, this is my break. I was like, it's the Muppets, it's going to go on for five or six years and I'm just going to notch up every year. And after 16 episodes, that one got canceled.

Michael Jamin:

What's Ms. Piggy really like?

Kevin Lewandowski:

I mean, she is who she is. Difficult. Yeah, she's difficult. She's a bit of a diva. We have to had to cater to all of her needs.

Michael Jamin:

What about, I'm sorry, and what were the other shows? Screw Miss Piggy. Yeah,

Kevin Lewandowski:

Screw Miss Piggy. So after that, a bunch of pilots that never got picked up, and then I worked for a show on Netflix called The Ranch with Ashley

Michael Jamin:

Element

Kevin Lewandowski:

That was a live audience show and I was there for two seasons. I'm trying to think after that. It's all becoming a blur. I did two seasons of Why Women Kill. Actually the first year I was a line producer's assistant, and so that was interesting to kind of see the financial side of things and see where they decide to put the money in. And then for season three, they moved me to Script coordinator,

Michael Jamin:

But the Branch was a legit show. That was a big show.

Kevin Lewandowski:

That was a lot of fun because I'd always wanted to work in the Multicam world. There's just something about show night and it's just kind of a big party for everyone and you get to see the audience's instant gratification. It's just a lot of fun. A lot of fun to work on those shows.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Well now the next thing for us to do is try to get you into one of these jobs so you don't have to co-host with me all the time on this

Kevin Lewandowski:

Podcast. I don't mind co-hosting with you.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, all right. Well, we'll see if you feel that way at the end. Okay, that's fair. So we are doing, this is a special q and a. We do these monthly webinars or whatever, every three weeks actually, and we have a lot of questions we can't answer. And so we save 'em for the podcast. And now Kevin's going to feed them to me. He's going to regurgitate them to me. He's going to baby bird them into my mouth, and then I'm going to try to answer them as best I can.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Early Bird gets the worm or something like that.

Michael Jamin:

Gross. Kevin Gross.

Kevin Lewandowski:

And I apologize in advance for anyone's name I might butcher.

Michael Jamin:

It's okay. They don't need to. I mean whatever if you get 'em wrong. Okay,

Kevin Lewandowski:

So these first few questions are going to be kind of course related questions. The first one is from Dat Boy, D-A-T-B-O-I. And that person's asking, what are the best tips for making my script shine more than the rest?

Michael Jamin:

Oh boy. Well, I wish he would. Well, he was already at my free webinar. I wish he would sign up for my course. I mean, that's what the course is. The best tips for making it shine is making sure your act breaks pop, making sure the dialogue feels fresh, your characters are original. I mean, there's no tips. It's not a tips thing. It's 14 hours of, let me tell you how to do it. That boy, I wish. What do you think, Kevin? What's your answer for him?

Kevin Lewandowski:

I think it's one of the things you always say on your webinars is after taking my course, you'll just hear me yelling in your head all the time about this is your end of act two moment, this is this, this is that. And I can vouch for that and say, anytime I'm looking through a script or even watching a TV show, because of your course and just understanding the story structure, you get those spider senses like, oh, the raising the stake should be coming very soon. Now we're about halfway through the episode, so something better be changing here. And I think it's just, again, everything you say in your course of just knowing those beats when they need to hit how they need to pop will help set your script ahead of amateur writers.

Michael Jamin:

You're a good student, Kevin.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. Thanks.

Michael Jamin:

Alright, what's next?

Kevin Lewandowski:

So km phs, when I say I don't have experience, but I have a killer pilot and I took Michael Jamin's course. How much of a difference is the course going to make in terms of being a desirable hire?

Michael Jamin:

No one cares that you took my course. So zero no one's. That's why we don't give a diploma out because the diploma is worthless. No one really cares if you went where you studied, who taught you all they care about, is the script good or not? Does it make them want to turn the page or not? Do they want to find out what happens next or not? So I wish I could give you a better answer than that, but it's not the degree. The degree isn't worth anything. Hopefully the knowledge is worth something.

Kevin Lewandowski:

I think the analogy I have in my head of your courses, I look at scripts I wrote before taking your course, and it's like when you look back at high school photos and I had the Frosted tips, the pca, shell, necklace, hoop earring, and at the time it was cool. And now you look back and it's like it's pretty cringe-worthy. It's pretty cringe-worthy to see those photos. And now after taking your course, I feel like it's like now I'm wearing a suit and I don't have the poop hearing and I don't have the frosted tips, and I'm not as cringe-worthy when I look back at some of the scripts I wrote a year or so ago.

Michael Jamin:

Good, good. All right, good. Very good. Impressing me more and more, Kevin.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Right? Next question. Ous. I'm butchering that one. Nope,

Michael Jamin:

Perfectly. That's how he says his name.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. What are the most important things an inspiring writer should be aware of while reviewing one script before sending it to an established executive or writer?

Michael Jamin:

God, it's pretty much the same answer as all the other ones. It's like, do your act breaks, pop? Is it fresh? The dialogue, I'm sorry, but it's the same answer, so I don't really have anything to say. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Next question, mal. Yay.

Michael Jamin:

Exactly.

Kevin Lewandowski:

In a 26 page pilot is page 11 two, late for the first act break, second act break or second act being on page 20.

Michael Jamin:

On the 26 page script, the first back page is on 11, is that what they said?

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's not terrible. I've seen worse things. I'm assuming it's a single space. It's not terrible. Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Colin Miller, what is a good system to practice writing every day? I like this question.

Michael Jamin:

A good system, a good system. I don't know why you like it, because I'm stumped. I mean, I would just say write a good system is to, I'm most creative in the morning, so that's when I want to write and I try to do my busy work in the evening stuff that's easier, but you might be a night owl, but I would just carve out time every day and just sit down at the computer and write. And don't be so precious that no one's going to look at your first draft. That first draft can be terrible, so don't just get it on paper. Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. I think a lot of maybe misconceptions people have is writing every day isn't necessarily open up final draft and typing something. Sometimes it's going on a walk for an hour and a half and thinking about the story you're trying to tell and laying out the beats in, I live in Glendale and there's a outdoor mall. It's fun to kind of just walk around there and people watch a little bit. And sometimes

Michael Jamin:

The Americana, that's where you go.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yep. Right By the Americana.

Michael Jamin:

Are you in walking distance to that

Kevin Lewandowski:

Few blocks?

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. Okay. Alright. You'd like to go on the trolley.

Kevin Lewandowski:

I've never been on that trolley. I'm always afraid

Michael Jamin:

You like to ring the bell on trolley, Kevin. Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

I'm always afraid it's going to hit someone.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I know. I know.

Kevin Lewandowski:

I think takes up a lot of the bottom of the path.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. All

Kevin Lewandowski:

Right. Next question. So NRS creates, I guess this is a question, it's more of a comment. It said, agreed. The course is changing the way I see all of my stories. Good, great.

Michael Jamin:

Great.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Christina Sini, who's a current student, and Michael Jamin's course, we learned to break and structure story well before writing those bits and pieces of a script glued together that we won't have to cling to anyone to make them fit. We basically learned how to build in order. I think that goes back to your analogy of laying the foundation first and doing, starting with the characters in beat sheets and then outlining and eventually getting to the physical writing of the script.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, she's doing great, Christina. She's having a good amount of success early on, so I'm impressed.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Another very active person in the course, Laurie. John Michael's course is amazing. When you take the class, you also become of the Jam and Facebook community. We do table reads and give each other notes twice a month. Writer sprints, Wednesday nights and mock writer's room. So anyone that's thinking about getting the course, we have this private Facebook group and it's a bunch of great people in there and we are all just trying to build each other up.

Michael Jamin:

It really is. It's impressive because when you look at some of the other Facebook groups, the screenwriting groups or on Reddit or groups, it's mostly people trying to tear each other down. But because this is private, I think they're not like that at all. It's a community, I think.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah, I think that was a big thing for you because you said you were in some of those groups, and I think you even said you sometimes as a professional working writer, you would say something that people would attack

Michael Jamin:

You. Yeah. You don't, what are you talking about? Oh, alright. I happened once or twice. I was say, I'm done. Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

All right. Next question. VV oral, is it worth it? And parentheses story structure is very detailed in your course, so I think maybe it's worth it, not is it worth it? Yeah. I think it's just more people praising about your course.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Let's see. Okay, now we have some craft questions. Good. From Mal mavey, they, again, is it okay to end a pilot on a cliffhanger?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's okay, but better not. You're really counting on the fact that anyone's going to care, so you're better. I think what the danger is, you may be writing towards this cliffhanger thinking that everyone's going to be so, oh my God, what's going to happen if you don't write? If all those pages beforehand aren't so great, no one's going to care what happens. And so a lot of people write towards this cliffhanger thinking, oh, aren't you going to be enthralled? And the answer is no, we don't care.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. Yeah. I think trying to work backwards from that I think can be a disservice. And I think it's just you definitely don't want that cliffhanger to be more exciting necessarily than your act one break, because that's what we know what we're following. Lex Macaluso, once I have a great script, what are the practical steps to do?

Michael Jamin:

Well, once you have a great script, write another one for sure. And then you want to make sure you actually do have a great script. And you do that by showing it to people. And it doesn't have to be somebody in the industry. It could be a friend or a mother or someone whose opinion you trust. What do you think? And if they love it and they say, this is amazing, show me something else. You're onto something. But if they say, well, I like this part, or I like when this happened, or This is a good storyline, then that's not a great script. So you have to be honest with yourself. It's really, look, it's really hard to write a great script. Everyone assumes they have it and I don't assume I have it. So when I do my job really well, I might have a good script. A great script is really, you got to really hit it out of the park.

Kevin Lewandowski:

And I think just that idea of what is a great script, so arbitrary, and I think it's sticking to the story structure of what you teach in your course can help set your script apart from others.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And honestly, it is those things that I'm looking for. All the things that I say that when I'm reading a script, what I'm looking for and what I'm really looking for is I want a really good script. It doesn't even have to be great because a really good script stands out great or amazing is very rare. I mean, how often do you see a movie that's been made or a TV show and you go, this is a great script. Most of the time you're like, oh, this is really good.

Kevin Lewandowski:

So if you were reading a script, and let's say maybe the structure wasn't where you think it should be, but the characters were very compelling and the characters were witty with what they were saying. Would you still be okay with that? Or vice versa if maybe the characters was a little bit too much speaking on the nose, but the structure and everything was spot on with that.

Michael Jamin:

Years ago we hired on a show, we were running a show and we were reading a ton of scripts, and we got to one where Act one was really good. Act two was really good, and Act three was not very good. And we hired him anyway because we were thought at that point, I was like, he did the first two parts really well, I could fix, or we could fix Act three, not a problem. And so I think that says a lot. You do act one, walk two. That's a big deal. He's a young writer.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Do you see a pattern with a lot of writers starting out is Act two where they struggle the most? Or is it act three or is it,

Michael Jamin:

Listen, I don't make it to act two. If Act one isn't good, I don't read further. I get another script. If I get a stack of scripts, who cares about Act two? Fact One sucks.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. Ben Miller, what screenplays are the best to read, to learn from perhaps the West Wing pilot, which I read in a screenwriting class?

Michael Jamin:

Well, it depends what you want to write. If you want to write drama, then maybe West Wing pilot, I haven't read it, but you can also learn from reading band scripts. You can say to yourself, if long as you're honest, why am I not interested in this? And if you know what to look for, why is the script not compelling? Is the dialogue, is it the act breaks? Do they now you'll know what to look for? And then the trick is to be honest with yourself. There's been times even in my early career where I might pitch something to my partner and he'll say, if you read that in a script and someone else's script, you'd say, that sucks. And I go, really? I thought it was good. He goes, no, no, you would say it sucks. So then at that point, you got to go, okay, you got to back off. And you don't fight for it. You got to be honest with yourself.

Kevin Lewandowski:

I think another amazing thing in today's world that didn't really exist when you start out is pretty much any show that's out there right now, you can get access to some version of the script, whether it was a writer's draft or a production draft. Is

Michael Jamin:

That true? How do you find them?

Kevin Lewandowski:

I mean, if you just go to Google and you type in Breaking Bad Pilot script, there's going to be versions that you can download. It's always interesting to read those scripts and then watch the first episode and see how much did they change? Because I doubt you'll be able to find necessarily the final shooting draft online, but those first couple writer's drafts are available. And it's always interesting just to see you're reading it and you really, really like this part, but then you watch the episode and they took it out. You're like, oh, okay. That's interesting that

Michael Jamin:

If you really wanted up your game, you could also watch the pilot of Breaking Bag and type out the script while you're watching it and then read it later and look for what are the act breaks, literally, what are the act breaks? How do they work? What's the dialogue on that? What's the last line of every scene? What's the dialogue? At the last line,

Kevin Lewandowski:

When I was doing writer's assistant script coordinate stuff, that's what I used to do to type faster just sit and watch TV and just type out the script as it was happening.

Michael Jamin:

Wow, good for

Kevin Lewandowski:

You. Because in the room, they don't like it when you say, Hey, can you slow down a little bit? Can I hear that again? No, you got to go.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Okay. Part, what advice would you offer writers to adapt to the inevitable changes in developments expected in the screenwriting field and then years to come? I'm assuming that's in the context of chat, GPT, ai, that kind of stuff.

Michael Jamin:

Right now, that stuff is being regulated. I don't know of anybody who's using it in a writer's room. That's not to say I could easily be out of the loop, so I don't know. But right now, as far as I know, chat, GPT wasn't a tool. Any writer that I knew was clamoring for, because we all knew if it works, it's going to put us out of a job. So any changes? I don't know. I really don't know. I would just say maybe I'm naive, but stay the course. Figure out how to write without using a computer program or else, because if you're using the computer program, what do we need you for?

Kevin Lewandowski:

Right. Have you ever just to see what it would look like, just prompt, Chappie, just to write you a random scene just to see what it would look like, and then compare it to your knowledge you have of being a professional writer for

Michael Jamin:

Many years. Well, a couple of months ago, my partner decided to put some prompts into chat, GPT to come up with story ideas for Come FD for the show we were on. He just read 'em to me. We were both laughing at how terrible they were. It was like a paragraph of what's going to happen in this episode. And it was interesting how it was able to glean what the show was and what it was like, but it was just such an oversimplification of what the show, it lacked any nuance. It was kind of stupid. It was like, nah, that's not, I know. That's what it was almost like asking a 4-year-old what you think the show is and the four year olds. Yeah. Okay. You're right. It's about firemen. Okay, sure. But other than that, the ideas were terrible.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. Another question from NRS creates, what are your thoughts on screenwriting competition websites like Cover Fly and the Blacklist? Is that a good way to get a script into people's hands? Thoughts on one act, scripts, one act plays? Do they have three acts?

Michael Jamin:

A lot of questions. I think you're the better person to answer the first part.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. So I've definitely submitted to some of those contests just to see A, if I would get any more B, what kind of feedback they would give. And a lot of times it's not very helpful feedback. And you've talked about, you have to question who these people are that are giving feedback, because chances are, they're not professional working writers right now. They would not have the time to go through 20, 30 scripts to give feedback. So chances are these could potentially be recent college graduates that are just doing what they think, what they learned in film school. And interestingly enough, I think Phil, he went through one competition. He sent me what the feedback was, and just reading it, I was like, this sounds very Chat, GPT ai. It was just very, because he sent me other ones he got, and I was like, okay, this feels like a person actually read this. This feels like it could have been put in chat, GPT, write a response based on what you think. And then when I said that to him, he was like, you might be right. He's like, you might be right. Interesting.

Michael Jamin:

Back when I was writing my book and I submitted to some publishers, whatever, a couple wrote back why they didn't like it, why they didn't want to option the book or whatever, and whatever. A couple of them, their feedback was like, no, it's clear to me you barely read it. Which I understand because these were low level publishing types editors. And on their weekend read, they probably had to read a couple dozen books, manuscripts, they're not going to give it full attention. And I was like, so some of the criticism, I was like, okay, that's a fair criticism. But no, but that is not, there's literally no truth in what you're saying there. You just phoned it in because you have to read so much over the weekend. So I don't know. Got to take, no one's going. I mean, it's the same thing for these websites. Are they really going to put their heart and soul into it? No. Why would They

Kevin Lewandowski:

Don't care. They just want the

Michael Jamin:

Money. Yeah. Why would they? Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

You think about someone in your position giving feedback to a fellow writer that might take you two and a half hours, read the script, think about your notes, and then put 'em in a format to be able to explain them to the writer. And I don't think these people in those competitions are doing that. They probably just read it once and write down what they think. And it's funny how some of them, it's what would you rank the character dialogue on a one to 10, and they write six and a half. It's like,

Michael Jamin:

Where are you getting

Kevin Lewandowski:

That from? One is six and half. So then what would've gotten me an eight or an half or a nine?

Michael Jamin:

One of the things we just started doing on their website, if you have the course, our screenwriting course, I have a couple of friends who are high level writers who are willing to give notes. But here's the thing, you're going to pay. It's not cheap. You're going to pay these people to sit down and read your damn script for two or three hours and they're not getting $10 an hour. That's not what they're going to get. I don't know what you get paid for,

Kevin Lewandowski:

I guess. So is this a good way to get your script into people's hands? So I think, yeah, mean it's technically people's hands, but I don't know if

Michael Jamin:

I don't think they're the right hands.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Feedback is going to be any valuable. And then thoughts on one X Scripts. One X plays, do they have three x inherently?

Michael Jamin:

That's an interesting question. Do they have three acts? I would say yes, in terms of the structure, in terms of what makes something compelling, but not necessarily, I guess I've written some stories in my book that don't fall into the traditional three Acts structure, but they come close. They definitely come close to it. And that's just because, well, it doesn't really matter why, but you can't go wrong. You really can't go wrong if you structure something like the way we teach.

Kevin Lewandowski:

So in your opinion, because heard, sometimes people use a five act structure, and I think for me, I think it's basically the same three act structure, but so act one will be act one, and then Act two is

Michael Jamin:

Act

Kevin Lewandowski:

Two A and then Act two B. And so it's kind of broken up like that. So for me,

Michael Jamin:

Well, Shakespeare wrote that way. Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

And he's all right. He did.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I mean, I just think it's easier not to write. I just think three is easier to get your head around. Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. I think just the thought of hearing the words, so writing five acts, that just sounds like it can be a lot, but if you could be like, oh, three acts, okay, I can do that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. Anyone could do that. Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Next topic, breaking in. DJ asked when starting out to obtain that experience, what sort of job should one be searching for, staff, writer, assistant, et cetera?

Michael Jamin:

You should be searching for the production assistant job anywhere, and eventually, after a season or two, see if you can move to a job that's closer to the writer's room. Physically, let's do what Kevin did. That's what he did.

Kevin Lewandowski:

And I think there's a staff writer that's obviously not entry level assistant. There's various assistant positions you could do production assistant, you can do showrunners, assistant executive assistant. I think one of the, or the terminologies people may get confused is writer's production assistant and then writer's assistant. And the writer's production assistant is the one that's responsible for getting the lunches, stocking the kitchen, making copies, things like that. And the writer's assistant is the one that sits in the room, types up the notes and the jokes that are being pitched. And they work closely with the script coordinator. And as you've said, many times, the writer's assistant is not an entry level job. It can be very intensive times.

Michael Jamin:

And for what's worth, I've worked with several assistants, either writer's, assistant production assistants, who've since gone on to become staff writers have had successful careers. So it's not like many. So Kevin, hopefully you'll be next.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah, I'm hoping so too. Next question, Sammy. ak. So the best way to get a foot in the door to support and learn the biz write in assistant or pa, we kind of just answer that. Yeah. Production assistant is that entry level. You're kind of just the gopher and you're the whatever they kind of need you go do, and you prove yourself to those people above you. And they notice. Notice people notice when you're either calling it in or you're really going above and beyond to make whoever's ahead of you life a little bit easier. Yeah. All right. Now we got some miscellaneous. Oh, here's a fun question. Tulio, how close are you to officially publishing your book, Michael,

Michael Jamin:

It's already out tulio. You can go get it. You can find it. Sign copies are available@michaeljamin.com slash book. Or you could search for a paper orchestra on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, or the audio book on Audible or Spotify or Apple. How about that?

Kevin Lewandowski:

Get the book. Everyone get the book. The comment to address from Jonathan Loudon, real world dilemma. I like this. Can't get experience without getting hired. Can't get hired without experience. That's why, who is such a reality?

Michael Jamin:

Well, but if you're starting off in an entry level position, you don't need to know anybody. You just have to put yourself out there. And then in terms of knowing someone later in your job, well, now you already know people. Now you broke because entry levels, literally, you have a pulse in a car. So I find that it's a convenient excuse. Put yourself out there, and Kevin, you didn't have any contacts when you broke into Hollywood. None. So there you go.

Kevin Lewandowski:

You just got to knock on some doors. I think people that work in the industry, they know kind of how it works. Once you break in, you become a pa, and you make those network connections with production coordinators that you've worked with and people on the show, and you build those genuine relationships and you do good. Then when they go to the next show and they're like, Hey, we need someone, then they'll reach out to you and

Michael Jamin:

They're not reaching out for you because they're as a favor to you. They're reaching out to you because we need to hire someone. And I don't really want to spend days interviewing.

Kevin Lewandowski:

I already know you can do the job. It's so much easier just to bring you aboard.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, right. It's not like a favor to you. It's a favor to them.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A Collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time, his knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker View says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Next question, all nighters cinema, what makes your script stand out? If it's a book adaptation and the story isn't your original story,

Michael Jamin:

Well, do you have the rights to adapt? A book is one question. So if you don't, I probably wouldn't adapt it. And that's not to say that when people think you adapt a book, you still have to have these act break pops. These scenes have to unfold. It's not like books are a slam dunk to adapt. I mean, there's definitely some art and craft that has to be applied to turning into a script. So that's how you make it stand out.

Kevin Lewandowski:

And I think one of the other things you like to say is if you have a book, there might be a few different stories happening throughout that book. And in your paper orchestra, one of the examples you get, oh, I forget what it was called about the swing dance, and I forgot that chapter

Michael Jamin:

Was called Yes, swing and a Miss.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. As you said, there was other stuff happening at that point in your life, but it was just this story was the one you wanted to tell. Of course you were going to work and doing stuff like that, but this was the story you wanted to tell.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And also, how many times have you seen they've adapted a book, I don't know, a popular book into a TV show movie? And sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad. It's because it's not as simple as simply typing the book.

Kevin Lewandowski:

And a lot of times people say the book was even better or the book was better anyways. And I mean, it's hard to take 300 pages of a book and consented to

Michael Jamin:

An hour and a half movie. Right.

Kevin Lewandowski:

David Sallow, what if you a show idea that you have done the work on and think it uniquely speaks to the present moment? Are there any shortcuts possible there or no

Michael Jamin:

Shortcuts to what? You got to write a script. Yeah. There's no shortcuts to write in a good script, and there's no shortcuts to selling it. There's no shortcuts anywhere. Shortcuts. When does shortcuts ever work? I don't know. Where are the shortcuts? Yeah, little Ed riding Hood. Other than that, in real life, you got to put the work in. Right.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Do you ever watch the, there's a documentary about the South Park creators and how from they, from blank page to delivering the episode, how many days do you think,

Michael Jamin:

Well, I know they're super fast, so I would say five,

Kevin Lewandowski:

Six.

Michael Jamin:

Six.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Okay. Six days. That's very fast. They are delivering it like a half hour before it's supposed to. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And that's because the animation process is so crude that they can do it so quickly, but that's fast,

Kevin Lewandowski:

And we've just gotten used to it that way. So I think with them in an interesting way, that's why their shows seem like their current and present, because something could have happened in the news last week, and then that episode could air next week. Whereas other animation shows, and I know you've worked in animation, sometimes it's seven, eight months before that episode,

Michael Jamin:

Or it could be nine months, nine months animated show. So yeah, you don't do anything top of one within in an animated show, not the ones I've done.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. Next question. What if I wrote lyrics to the theme song? Is that okay to include? I think this might be in the context of one of the things you say in your scripts, don't write music cues. Don't write, don't put song lyrics in there, or something like that.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, if you think you got fantastic lyrics and you're going to really impress the hell out of someone, but you still have to, when I'm reading the script, I have to imagine what the music is, and I'm not going to imagine the music. And I suppose you can write the lyrics and maybe some people will read it and some won't. So it's up to you. Do you really think it's fantastic or not?

Kevin Lewandowski:

I had a couple scripts that I put part of a song in there and then listening to, I'm like, no, it's coming out, taking it out.

Michael Jamin:

In my opinion, there's really no, I'm not crazy about reading that.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

I mean, maybe others are, I don't know.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Well, I think, I think back to my script, it was I just kind of being lazy. Could I take that three eighths of a page and add something in there that's going to help move the storyline further, or was I just looking for a, what's a funny moment I could have right now?

Michael Jamin:

Right. Okay.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Let's see. From Aaron, in terms of recognizing good writing, writing, what is considered too much in terms of providing direction to actors, description of character, thoughts and emotions, et cetera?

Michael Jamin:

The less the better, in my opinion. You don't want let the actors do their job, and if you feel you can't convey the anger in a scene or the love in a scene with dialogue and you're yelling at the actors, do it this way, then you haven't done your job as the writer do your job. Not everyone else's. As far as action lines go, I am of the camp that the shorter the better because most writers or most people reading do not want to read your action line. I suppose one day, if get, I think when you get more successful, if you're Aaron Sorkin, you can write whatever the hell you want. You're, because he writes his actions line. I imagine poetry, it's probably his action lines are probably just as interesting as his dialogue because he's such a great writer, but don't count on it when you're starting off.

Kevin Lewandowski:

I was reading something, I forgot who the actor was, but they said, the actor always requested that their script have commas and apostrophes taken out of dialogue because they felt like they didn't want someone telling them how to say things. And I was like, I can respect as an actor, but I was like, that poor script coordinator, they have to go through that whole script again and take everything out.

Michael Jamin:

That's a little bit much to me. It seems like putting a comma there is like that's just grammar. And if they wanted to take it out, I think they should do it themselves, but whatever,

Kevin Lewandowski:

From Jonathan Loudon, again, how many feature films have you written, pitched, but never sold?

Michael Jamin:

Well, we wrote one completely as a spec, and that did not sell, but that got us a producer interested in our writing, and then we wrote two more that did sell as pitches. We pitched them first, then we got paid to write the script. And as far as I can remember, I don't think we wrote any other feature scripts. I think we maybe had some ideas that were batting around, but we never actually pitched or wrote, but we work mostly in tv.

Kevin Lewandowski:

So do you know, because from what I can recall, you've never sold a feature that actually went into production, correct. Right,

Michael Jamin:

Right. They they never do.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. And how do you think you would feel, because as you say, tv, the showrunner head writer has the final say, and on a feature, it's the director that has the final say. I worked with someone, his name's Steve Rudnick, and he wrote Space Jam and the Santa Clause movies with Tim Allen, and he told me this story how he was at a baseball game and he saw someone walking down the aisle and it had a Space jam cast and crew jacket. And he asked the guy and he was like, can I ask you where you got that jacket? That's a really cool jacket. And he's like, oh, I worked on production. This was all our rap gifts, and Steve never got one because writers usually aren't part of the production aspect on

Michael Jamin:

Feature, and he was accredited writer on it. Right. That's what an actor thought he was. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's probably common. I don't know why people want to become writers on movies. I mean, it would be cool, but maybe he was heavily rewritten. Maybe he was, I don't know.

Kevin Lewandowski:

He was so bummed. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. He wasn't invited to anything.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. Right. Geo, could you elaborate on the things not to say to executives or some examples of what the producer said?

Michael Jamin:

What the producer said? I'm not sure I answered the question.

Kevin Lewandowski:

So can you elaborate on the things, so I guess as a writer, and maybe you gave your script to an executive and they were giving you feedback or said, Hey, maybe do this, do this. How would you respond to those notes?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you want to be positive. Great. We'll work on that. Thank you. Good idea. Interesting thought. We'll definitely do our best with that, and then later, hopefully you can take 90% of the notes and the ones you can't take, you say, I think we address the spirit of your note. Even if we couldn't address your notes or this one, we couldn't make it work occasionally, but you're doing 90% of the notes. Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

I think the phrase I would always hear on notes calls is, okay, well, yeah, we'll take a look at it. We'll take a look at that. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

We'll take a look at it. Yeah. We,

Kevin Lewandowski:

Next question from Cody, with short seasons, freelance opportunities have mostly gone away, but are there still opportunities for freelance, and if so, how are writers polled in for those?

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. That's a good question because that's a question. You'd have to look that up with the Writer's Guild. I don't remember on our last show there, I don't recall ever having those guys doing freelance, giving off freelance episodes to anyone. So it used to be a Writer's Guild mandate if the show was a certain length that they had to give out a certain number of freelancers. And now maybe they don't have to, but I wouldn't either way get it out of your head that you're ever going to sell a freelance episode because it's just so over my 28 years, I think I've sold maybe three freelance episodes and I would do more. It's not a problem. It's just that they're really hard to get.

Kevin Lewandowski:

And I think a lot of times what happens in writer's rooms is those writer's assistants and script coordinators that have proved their worth for a couple of seasons. If that opportunity comes for them to get a freelance episode, the showrunner helps 'em out with that, and that helps them get into the Writer's Guild and things like

Michael Jamin:

That. That's usually a bone you throw those support staff after they've been there a couple of years.

Kevin Lewandowski:

That's a nice bonus. It's a nice check to get. Next question, David Campbell. Does the creator continue to have involvement or do you teach them on the job?

Michael Jamin:

If someone creates the show and they are not the showrunner, which just happened on a couple shows we've done. We were not the showrunner and the creator had involved. They were on the writing staff, but they didn't have any say. They didn't have the final say or anything. If we are the showrunner, whoever's the runner has final say. Yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Next question, nerds and friends, how many writers' rooms are virtual remote nowadays? What is the path to becoming a showrunner? Is it a writer pivoting into that role? I can imagine producing experience helps.

Michael Jamin:

No, so a showrunner is the head writer. The way you become a showrunner is by being a writer on many shows and being good at writing, and then the producing aspect of the job. You kind of learn on the job as you rise up the ranks. You don't have to take a course or there's no certification, and it's something you can fake.

Kevin Lewandowski:

For me, I never really understood what the word producer meant. No one in the context of television, because it's working in the industry, you learn, okay, writers can be producers, but then sometimes accountants, if they're high enough, they can also be producers. And not every producer is necessarily like the creative vision. Some of them deal with the money aspect of it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. They're non-writing producers or non-writing executive producers, they're

Kevin Lewandowski:

Called. Yeah. Next question, K with an asterisk next to it. Are series filmed for streaming services similar to TV regarding creative control for the show runner?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yes.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Easy question. Yeah, all-nighter cinema. How different is trying to greenlight a serial TV show versus a mini series?

Michael Jamin:

It just depends on what the network, usually they're buying series. They're not buying mini series there. Sometimes they're buying limited series. It just depends on the network. And I wouldn't even approach, again, your goal is to write one great script as a writing sample, and it's not to time the market and figure out who's buying what. Can you write a script? Answer that question first,

Kevin Lewandowski:

Right? If a studio buys your pilot but ends up passing and an exec at another studio is interested, how realistic is it that they'll buy it again

Michael Jamin:

If the first one will buy it?

Kevin Lewandowski:

I don't know. I'm wondering if they're asking just because one studio passes on your script, does that mean every studio is going to pass on it?

Michael Jamin:

No. No. Usually if you're lucky, you pitch to five studios and one buys it. That's how they don't all want to buy it. You're lucky if one wants to buy it. But again, what's frustrating about all these questions that we're hearing is everyone's saying, how do I make money selling a script? And no one's saying, how do I write a good script? Everyone is already assuming that. It's just so damn frustrating. It's like, guys, what do you think? How do you think this is going to work? It's not about the meeting. It's about writing a damn good script. First thing's first. So I don't know, what are you going to do? I yell into the wind. People don't listen to me on this.

Kevin Lewandowski:

I listen. They'll listen. They'll listen. Yeah. I mean, I think there's almost this weird delusion that people think they're going to move out here within a year. They're going to have their own show. And I was just talking to someone the other day that they're going to USC, and she was talking about kind of her timeline with things, and she said, I want to give myself five years from when I graduate in 2025 to try to get into a writer's room. And when she said that to me, I said, very realistic. That's not too quick that, because there's a lot of luck of, I

Michael Jamin:

Thought you were going to say have her own show on the air.

Kevin Lewandowski:

No, no. She was very much, if I can be in a writer's room in five years. So I thought, yeah, because tough, because if you can get on that show that season one, it's not a hit yet, then it becomes a hit that can definitely fast track you a little bit. And my struggle has been, none of the pilots I've worked on have gotten picked up and shows have gotten canceled. And I'd like to believe that's not my fault, but it's hard to look at the No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

Michael Jamin:

But yeah. But it's a little frustrating when people ask these questions sound to me like when I hit a grand Slam, who do I high five first? They're like, dude, can you get on base? Do you know how to get a base hit? What are you talking about? Just get a base hit first. So that's what it sounds like to me. And I wish people would just have more realistic expectations and would take a little more, everyone's assuming they already knew how to do the hard part.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. Next question, given that streaming has changed the face of sitcom series writing, how do you feel about the future of the industry? Are there days of having full writer's room and staff over?

Michael Jamin:

It certainly seems that way, but who knows right now, if you follow what's going on, it seems like, it seems like everything's becoming, we're slowly moving back to the old days. There's going to be fewer streamers. They're going to be consolidation. They're already talking about these big streamers merging. And when that happens, things will change, but we don't really know. Right now, the industry's at a crossroads. They're not picking up a lot of shows. Now. They will pick up start. That will happen. And imagine a couple of, it can't go on much longer. They got to have to start pulling the trigger and start making TV shows again. So we don't know. We're at the crossroads,

Kevin Lewandowski:

Because I think you said back when you were working on, just Shoot Me In, I think you said King of the Hill, there was more than 15 writers on King. King

Michael Jamin:

Of the Hill. We had 20 writers in King of the Hill, and we were do 22 episodes in a season.

Kevin Lewandowski:

And how many were on Just Shoot Me?

Michael Jamin:

Well, let's see. In the beginning, I would say it's closer to maybe 10 or so, maybe 12 at some point.

Kevin Lewandowski:

And in your experience, do you think comedy rooms always have more writers

Michael Jamin:

Than drama? I don't know. I mean, it just really depends on the budget of the show and how many episodes you're going to be doing.

Kevin Lewandowski:

I think I was watching something about Breaking Bad, and I think they had six writers.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really? That's it.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Wow. On why Women Kill. We had five.

Michael Jamin:

The thing about drama is that you don't have to, it is easier in the sense that when you're writing a comedy, you still need to have that structure. You still need to come up with a story that is engaging, but it also has to be funny. But when you're doing the drama, you just need to come up with an engaging story, and it doesn't have to be funny, and you don't have to punch up the lines. And in that sense, I do think it's a little easier, but that's not to say writing Breaking Bad is easy. I mean, what a great show that works.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Right, right. Next question from maybe, are there tutorials and Final Draft, a proper guide for making your script presentation acceptable?

Michael Jamin:

What do you think? I don't know. I haven't looked at the tutorials.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. I mean, I think the nice thing about Final Draft is they have pre-built templates that you can use. So if you're writing a Multicam, it'll prebuilt that template and everything will automatically be capitalized for you. And same thing with Single Cam. And I think one of the things you always say is when you hand your script to someone, they're not going to know you use Final Draft or one of these other programs to write the script. They're just going to get a printed out version. And I think there's minimal things you need to do, make sure the dialogue is in the middle of the page and certain things are capitalized, and there's a certain format formatting of that. But Final Draft can take care of all that too. So when you're done writing, you just hit file, export as PDF, and that's it. You're done. All the four is done.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, final Draft, like you said, has those templates, and it'll make your script look like a script, which is great. You got a script, you got something that looks like a script, but does it read like a script?

Kevin Lewandowski:

Right. Har Draft does not do that for you. Yeah, it won't

Michael Jamin:

Do that.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Michael's course does.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I hope,

Kevin Lewandowski:

Lorenzo, given your friendship with the late David Bellini, have you got any insights on Italian films, TV industry, in your opinion? Is there any difference? Thank you.

Michael Jamin:

From what I knew from David. David when he was a lot, the difference is enormous. It's a whole different film structure over there. It's not so much of an industry as it is. I don't know. It sounded like really hard. And he was pretty successful. He worked on a bunch of shows, and he moved to LA to Hollywood because he was like, this is too crazy here. This is just not enough work. So I think it was a miracle that he was as successful as he was there, but it's a whole different ballgame

Kevin Lewandowski:

If the script doesn't have scenes in it. How should it be written? Is it just dialogue and descriptions? Do you have any advice for someone who wants to be a script doctor?

Michael Jamin:

Okay. The script does have to have scenes in it. It can't be all one scene. That's not going to be acceptable. A script doctor is not really, that's some bullshit that people say on the internet. No one I've ever met ever called themselves a script doctor. We're all screenwriters. And sometimes you sell your own work, and sometimes you're brought in to rewrite somebody else's, and there's no script doctor. You don't get a degree and you don't wear a stethoscope. And that's not a job. It's just sometimes will get paid to rewrite someone else's script, but you'll only get that job if you're a really good writer and you've written some really good scripts on your own. And then when you do, usually you're like, hell, I'll just write. I want to write my own stuff. And you're brought in to change someone else's script because it's like, all right, someone's giving me money and here's a job, and I'm in between jobs, so I'll do it.

Kevin Lewandowski:

There's no shortcuts. A couple more questions, Aaron. How many followers, subscribers would someone need to have on social media for that to be interesting and asset to a studio or showrunner?

Michael Jamin:

Literally have no idea. And I'm not sure it would be interesting to a showrunner at all as far as the studio, in terms of being a writer. You're not expected to have a social media following at all. I just happen to have one, but it's not right. No one's, no one ever asked me, no one really cares. The benefit is I can promote my own stuff. I have a following, but for a writer, you don't need that.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. And then our last question, is it okay to make the size of the words on the title page a little bit bigger?

Michael Jamin:

I suppose it is. I don't try to do anything fancy, but I don't know why you want to. It's okay if you want to. It's not desperate, but I don't know. I try to make it, I want my script to look like just an ordinary script. I want the pages themselves, the dialogue to stand out. I'm not really trying to make the cover page stand out.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah, I think it's like when writing any paper you did in college or whatever the title is, 18 font, and then the stuffy writing is 12 font or whatever.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you can do that.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Yeah. I think one of the things you said is the title page. No one necessarily cares about that. If you put a fancy image on there, that's not going to, people aren't going to be like, oh, we got to hire this person. We got to hire this person right now.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Don't even give any thought to the title. I mean, really. You're not going to fool anybody. So yeah.

Kevin Lewandowski:

Well, that is all the questions we have from that webinar.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Excellent. Kevin, you did really well. You're a natural here. Thanks. Yeah. Alright, everyone. Thank you. Please continue coming to our webinars. We do 'em every few weeks. To sign up, go to michael jamin.com/webinar. I got a book out. I hope you all get it. Sign copies are available @michaeljamin.com slash book. And if you want to come see me on tour, go to michael jamin.com/upcoming. Kevin, where can people find you?

Kevin Lewandowski:

I'm on social media, Kevin Lewandowski. Sorry it's a very long last name. It gets butchered a lot, but I'm there. And yeah, I occasionally make appearances with Michael on these webinars and things like that. So yeah. Thank you all for who's been coming to the webinars and checking out Michael's stuff. Just go to michael jamen.com and just start clicking around. There's a bunch of stuff you can get his free scripts, stuff he's written. There's free lessons up there. Every podcast we do gets uploaded there. You can spend hours on that websites. Just go there, click around, buy the book by

Michael Jamin:

The book. Thank you so much buddy. Alright. You're just going to stick around. Kevin's going to be back next week for another episode. I believe it's next week. We will see when it drops, but he's going to be back around for another one. Alright, everyone, until then, keep writing, keep being creative and all that stuff. Thanks so much.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most. Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More great stuff coming next week.

Show Notes

Jamie KalerIMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0435695/

Jamie Kaler on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Kaler

Jamie Kaler on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamiekaler/?hl=en

Jamie Kaler on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/jamiekaler

A Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/book

A Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1

A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4

A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Jamie Kaler:

He goes, Hey, just so you know, when you do watch it, we were running long for time. So we cut the tag. I go, you mean the reveal where I kissed the woman? He goes, yeah, we ran out of time and we cut it. I go, then everything I did up to that moment has no justification whatsoever because this is the craziest thing. He goes, I know. He goes, what are you going to do with tv? I go, all, whatever. And I moved on and I was like, couldn't care less. But

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, today I'm talking about acting with my guest, Jamie Kaler. This guy, before I bring him on this guy's credits are crazy. He works a lot and so I'm going to blow, yeah, blow through. I'm going to do the abridge version. If not, we'll be here all day, but I'm going to go way back. I'm on IM db now. I'm only doing the ones that I decide are highlights. But Jag, he's been on Fringe Friends. Suddenly. Susan Carnival, third Rock in the Sun, king of Queens, grounded for Life, married to the Kelly's Arrested Development, Spanglish, seventies show. What else Will and Grace, the Family Stone? Who remembers that? Monk New Adventures of Old Christine Sons and Daughters. How I Met Your mother, my boys. We know 'em from that. And then did I say Parenthood? Did I say shake it up? Did I say Austin and Allie? Did I say Teachers of the Year? I don't remember. I'm skipping crazy Ex-girlfriend. Jesus, dude. It doesn't end the middle Dads in Parks. Oh, we'll talk about that. Heather's robot Chicken. American Housewife. Most recently Taco fd where my partner and I created the character of Polanski. Jamie, that was exhausting. Are we done with the interview now?

Jamie Kaler:

Honestly, it was so much fun being here, man. All right, everybody, take care. See you later.

Michael Jamin:

That was such good advice. Sorry, you guys all missed it. Dude, you've been around. How did you get into acting? How does someone get into acting? By the way,

Jamie Kaler:

People ask me nowadays, and I go, dude, it's nothing. I mean now it's like don't even move to la just start a YouTube channel in upstate Minnesota and try to blow up. And then once you have a following, then you're set.

Michael Jamin:

But we were talking about on your podcast, the parent lounge, but I know you think it's like a burden, but I think it actually works in your advantage to you, to your advantage because you're really good at it. You're good. You have a great social media presence. You're quick on your feet. It seems to me this, even though it requires more work for you, it actually works in your favor. No,

Jamie Kaler:

You mean social media doing it this way? Yeah, of course it is, but I already did it. So now I'm kind of the same way that I used to go buy wigs and glue on mustaches and actually lit myself on fire on stage at Acme Comedy Theater when I was doing crazy shows on Friday and Saturday nights in the nineties with that fervor of what are we doing today? We're going to Goodwill, we're going to get some costumes, here we go. And I remember renting equipment, trying to shoot shorts and trying to clerks, and Ed Burns had made the brothers McMullan or whatever, and it was like, come on, we're making film. It was super hard and it was painful and it was costly. And nowadays you can do it with your phone. But I'm older, I don't quite have the drive. I also am watching two little kids.

So the time in the day is where I used to go, this is my day. I'm going to go do this now. I'm like, I dropped the kids at school. I had to go to the cleaners. I taking care of the two kids. I got to pick them up. I'm coaching soccer today. So yes, I will say though, especially watching you and you're a writer, but now you have to become a social media guru to get people to see what you've created and you're an artist. But nowadays, gosh, I was posting something this morning about the pregnant pause is gone pretty soon. Humans are going to evolve where the eyes instead of side by side are over the top of each other because horizontal's over everything's vertical. We need to flip our eyes. And years from now, no one will take a breath because we've dictated that. The breath makes people lose attention though. You can take a pause. People go

Michael Jamin:

Done. I

Jamie Kaler:

Can't. He took a breath. I can't.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. So I just had this conversation yesterday. I dropped an audio audiobook, and so some woman said I was doing a live, she goes, oh, I bought your audiobook. I love it, but I listened to it on one and a quarter speed. But I'm like, but when I take a pause, it's because I want to put a pause there. I want to give you a moment to soak it in. It's not arbitrary.

Jamie Kaler:

I wanted to take a Richard Pryor act from his comedy special and cut all the air out of it. And so you would take a 50 minute, one hour special where there's a groove. He's in the moment. It would be like if you took Buddy Rich and you took all the space between the drum beats out. You're like, a lot of the art is in the space, and we have forgotten that. And now it's like it's a machine gun or people's brains shut off.

Michael Jamin:

This is something when we're shooting a sitcom, often, we'll tell the actor, make sure you hold for a laugh here. Hold for the laugh. You will get one. Yeah. What do we do about this?

Jamie Kaler:

Well, I don't know because I was watching, have you watched Show Gun?

Michael Jamin:

No. Am I supposed to watch that?

Jamie Kaler:

It's new. It's based on the book. Oh my gosh, it's glorious. I had never read the book. 16 hundreds. Futile Japan, A simple, brutal, vicious life of it's gorgeous. They had a full society. It's like the 16 hundreds. Wait,

Michael Jamin:

Where am I watching this? What can I get?

Jamie Kaler:

It's on FX and on Hulu and Portuguese and Portugal and England are the two powerhouses on the earth, and they are at war, and they're basically fighting for ownership of the east, even though the east are, they're like, wait, we're here. No one's going to own us. So it's all about that, but it's just this beautifully, I mean, it's like art. It's like going to the museum, seeing this story unfold, but people's brains nowadays, some do just riddling. 30 seconds of garbage on TikTok will get a gillion times more views than that. Because I talked to somebody who said, Hey, have you seen Shogun? Someone's like, oh, it just seems slow. And I was like, it's one of the greatest stories of all time. It's one of the bestselling books of all time. It's history and gorgeous and art, and it's beautifully shot. And they're like, ah, boring. I don't have time for that crap.

Michael Jamin:

We have, right? So what do we do

Jamie Kaler:

If everything accelerates? There has to be a point where the human brain, it's like when they go, oh, this TV's 4K, and you're like, dude, I'm in my fifties. I can't even see 5K. I can't see any K anymore. It's like so resolution. It doesn't really matter. At some point your brain can't accept

Michael Jamin:

It. Well, worse than that, so my TVs, I have a nice plasma plasma, but it's probably 15 years old at a cost a fortune when I got it. But the new ones, the resolution's so clear, it kind of looks like you're watching a bad TV show. You know what I'm saying? You watch a expensive movie and it looks like it's bad TV because I'm seeing too much.

Jamie Kaler:

The human face is not supposed to be seen with that much resolution. You see people and you're like, oh, that dude had a rough night

Michael Jamin:

Where you

Jamie Kaler:

Used to be able to hide it, and now you're like, no, no, no, no.

Michael Jamin:

Right? But then now have you had these conversations with your agent and your managers, or is this just when we were talking about building your social media following, are they telling you this or are you just like, your friends are doing it now? I got to do it too.

Jamie Kaler:

You mean why try to build this? Well, it's also, listen, it's funny because my wife will give me grief sometimes, and she goes, your stories are too slow. Which is crazy because I'm one of the fastest speakers who's ever lived. Sometimes when I'm working, people go, you need to bring it down a little bit. But on social media, if I don't want to sit and take a 92nd video and edit it down to a minute to take out the 30 seconds of pauses, because some guy, but that's the dilemma. Everything's the lowest common denominator. The jokes are I see something that blows up and I go, that was a great joke when George Carlin told that in 1972, and it was really well written and scripted, and now you've kind of bastardized it and you've put it into a ten second with no, your speaking voice is intolerable. But I get it, that's what people want. They're scrolling through and you're like, that's how it works. So I'm also a dinosaur man. It's like my daughters are 10 and they're already do flying through stuff. I mean, I don't know how to stop it.

Michael Jamin:

Do you know people, I mean, obviously back in the day when you'd go to auditions now everything's you submit. But back in the day, I'm sure you were going to audition and they're the same 10 actors that you would see trying out for the same part. Do you think they're doing the same thing that you're doing building of social media presence?

Jamie Kaler:

Well, I think you have to. Nowadays, honestly, I see that the social media presence, it is number one, you don't have to go learn how to act. You don't have to learn how to be a standup comic. You don't have to learn these skills and slowly build your way up the top. You do it because you're a personality. People are intrigued, not by people who are, they're intrigued by humans. It's a voyeuristic thing, I think, where people are like, you'll see somebody and they're just talking to camera. They're not even good speakers. There's something off. There's a crazy story. And maybe they've just been doing it for 15 straight years and built up a following and put some money behind it, put some ads, made sure they got some clicks. Maybe they bought a few followers, and you're like, but the craft, the art of what you do as a writer. I mean, is it slowly falling? But that's the problem nowadays with my kids, we just got the report cards and really good grades, but you can see on the standardized test, they're reading is starting to slip because kids don't read. It's too slow for them. Their brain is like, well, they just can't slow. People cannot slow down anymore. And it's Where does it go

Michael Jamin:

From here? I dunno, but I have to say that. So a lot of this is, I don't think this is coming from producers. I was on a show a few years ago, maybe let's say 10 years ago, and the studio or the network rather wanted us to cast a guy with a big social media following for this role. And I'm like, wait, really? Why? What about an act? Can we just get an actor? This Hollywood? Aren't there actors everywhere? And it's because networks are having a hard time marketing their show. And these people with followings, they can market their own show.

Jamie Kaler:

Kevin Hart. I mean, I remember something. They were like, well, you're going to post about the movie. And he's like, if you pay me, and they were like, why would we pay you? You're in the movie. He goes, yeah, you paid me for my acting services now you want me to be your publicist. If you want me to publicize this film, you will pay me for it because I accumulated these 50 million followers on my own. Why would I just give it to you?

Michael Jamin:

But here's where I'm curious about that though. I'm not sure if he doesn't post, I get his point, why should I do the marketing as well? But if he doesn't do the marketing, it'll hurt him for his next movie because it won't perform as well in the box office. You know what I'm saying?

Jamie Kaler:

Yes. It's a double-edged sword. But I also think he doesn't care.

Michael Jamin:

He

Jamie Kaler:

Doesn't care. He doesn't care because he has that following. He will, and they'll put it into the budget. I'm sure the agents and managers are like, all right, so this is his money that you're going to pay him. This is part of the marketing fee you're going to. And listen, I totally understand it. I'm sure I've lost parts because people have gone over to go, his following is not as big as this guy. At the end of the day, could a ton of other people played Polanski? Absolutely. Would they have huge followings? Yes, of course. So I feel lucky anytime I get a job to promote it, I feel like I'm qualified for that job. But I also know it's, you look back at the history of film and Philip Seymour Hoffman died, the five projects he had ready to go, they just replaced him.

He's arguably one of the greatest actors of our generation. Nobody missed a beat. So are we all replaceable? Absolutely. Are we lucky to be in the business? Yeah. I mean, I would argue writers are more necessary because you're creating the project to start with. But as an actor, unless you're Daniel Day Lewis or somebody who's that crazy of a craft, then it's about chemistry, I think. Anyway. But you have to, those people are trying to get their films out, and so there's so much white noise on a daily basis that to cut through that, they're like, well, if this guy has 5 million followers and he puts up one post, what they don't see is that only 3% of those 5 million people even see. But this

Michael Jamin:

Is where I think the studios and the networks have really screwed up royally, is that they haven't figured out a way to build their own brand. So my wife and I will watch a movie or a TV show, we'll get halfway through it and all the night, we'll say, let's watch the rest tomorrow. Almost all the time. I forget where I watched it, and now I have to search, was it on Netflix? Did I watch it on Amazon? Where did I watch this? Because there's no brand anymore without a brand. They can't market their shows. They have to rely on other me and you to market their shows. It puts us in the driver's seat, not them. This is like a major blunder on their parts, I feel.

Jamie Kaler:

It's not just them. I'd say standup clubs, back in the day, you did a bunch of shows. You finally put a tape together, you sent it to a club. The club had a following, the club had the following. And you knew if you went to that club, you were going to see Richard, Jenny, Brian Regan, Jerry Seinfeld, you knew these guys. Whatever show you went to, you were going to be surprised, but you'd be like, man, those guys are really funny. Nowadays, the club is literally a rental space that you bring the following to. That's why they book influencers who have millions of followers, and then they get on stage. And I guess some are good and some maybe don't have, it's a different skill level

Michael Jamin:

When you go, do you still perform comedy stand

Jamie Kaler:

Up? I do. I used to tour a ton before the kids, and I was on the road all the time. And then once the kids were born, I didn't really want to do that as much. So now I stay home. So I kind of cherry pick gigs to go out for. And the road's a lot different, I feel like, than it used to be.

Michael Jamin:

So do you feel the quality of the standups, they're not quite as good anymore? Some people are, would you sound like old men? Which one is it?

Jamie Kaler:

Absolutely. And I say that all the time. I'm a dinosaur. But I will say that maybe the skill nowadays is not being a standup comic, but being a social media manipulator. And I mean that it's always been the skill. People used to hire publicists even back then, and I never did. And they'd be in People Magazine and I'd be like, what's the point of all that? And then as I got older, I was like, oh, fame allows you to do the jobs you want to do. That's really the trick. But I mean, to be Tom Cruise, I never wanted that because that dude can't leave his house. He can't just go to the supermarket, can't go to a park. I never wanted that. But that makes him and DiCaprio, those are the guys that are Johnny Greenlight. They get the first choice of scripts. And so they are allowed to do these amazing jobs that because how many people do you think nowadays can sell a picture?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the whole thing. Or can open, I don't know. Do you think it's more or less, I guess I would imagine it's probably less now. I mean, because celebrities changed. What do you think?

Jamie Kaler:

I think the era of the movie Star is over. I

Michael Jamin:

Think Tom Cruise

Jamie Kaler:

And Brad Pitt and DiCaprio, are they going to be the end of, and Damon are going to be the end of it? I mean, no. You see one of her on Netflix and it's like a TikTok, Charlie Delio. I haven't seen it. Maybe she's a wonderful actress. I don't know. But you go up through that ranks and all of a sudden you have 12 million followers or whatever, and then you could sell, I mean, it's Kardashian really was, we all gave her grief, but in retrospect, they were the smartest people in the room. They saw it coming to their credit and made a gillion dollars off of it, whether that's what you want to do with your life. But my kids kids want to start a YouTube page and a TikTok, and I'm like, she's 10. She's 10 years old. That's

Michael Jamin:

Too soon.

Jamie Kaler:

Yeah. I mean, can everyone on earth just be, can we keep an economy running if everyone's just an influencer? I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Well, there's the big question, right? If everyone's trying to, yeah, I

Jamie Kaler:

Mean, look at what you're doing. You wrote a book, you sat down, probably took quite a while. It's a very good book. Thank you. I've read it and it's like, but the point is, almost everybody's wrote in a book now, and everybody's a standup comic and everyone's a performer. And back when I did it, it was like people were like, oh my God, you do standup. I'm would never do that. I'm terrified now. I'll be it like a supermarket. And some woman's like, some grandma's like, oh, I do stand up every Tuesday night at retirement home. And you're like, it's

Michael Jamin:

Not. But I also feel like you're reinventing yourself, though. I mean, that's got to be exciting and interesting. No, or

Jamie Kaler:

Of course it is. Of course it is. I do listen. I love doing it. And everyone else, it's a love hate relationship because I'll think of something immediately, I'll put together a little funny bit that I, it's like a standup bit or something, and then I'll be able to share it with all my fans and they will respond accordingly. And you're like, oh yeah, this actually is a pretty good, I just also think we're the learning curve. We're the first generation to go through all this.

Michael Jamin:

Wait, let me tell you how I hoard myself out this morning. So I wondered, because I'm posting a lot to promote my book. I'm doing a lot of lives, and I'm like, I see other people do lives, and I'm not sure what that magic is. They're cooking eggs or whatever. Are we watching this person cooking eggs? Is this right? So I'm like, all right. I told my wife, today's pushup day. So I'm like, all right, I guess maybe I'll just do pushups and people will that work. And I did pushups on live and I don't know, 20 people watched. And I was like, I felt kind of stupid about the whole thing, but people were watching, I don't know, is this what I got to do now,

Jamie Kaler:

Pushups, I fear it is. If that's what you want to do for a living, I think this is, if you want to be in this business, I think that's the necessity of it. To be honest, I'm not sure I would've ever signed up for this if I knew, although when I was younger, I probably would've like, Ugh, I would've been Truman shown the whole

Michael Jamin:

Thing, right? But you wouldn't.

Jamie Kaler:

I do wonder, my kids, I think they were at their friend's house or something, and they Googled me. They told me, and they're getting to that age, and I'm like, uhoh, what did you watch? And they watched some crazy video I did where I said something stupid or whatever. And I don't know if every moment of our lives is supposed to be captured. I don't know what the answer is. I have such a love hate certain days. I wake up and I go, even this morning I was telling you I was writing a bit about something or other. And then another day I'll wake up and I go, I don't want to do any of it. I just want to go golf. And that was the beauty. I became an actor because it was the easiest thing. I worked hard to become a good actor. I took classes, worked on my craft, but I wasn't, I wasn't on 24 7 trying,

Michael Jamin:

Tell me if you feel this way, because if I don't, I try to post almost every day. And if I take one or two days off, that turns into three or four. You know what I'm saying? It gets easy not to do it.

Jamie Kaler:

Of course, of course. But do you feel guilty after those two or three days? Do you have any guilt or do you actually go, oh, what am I doing? This feels great.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it is mixed like you're saying, but a lot of it is like, this is my job. This is how you get a book out there. This is how you can, I work so hard not to work. You know what I'm saying?

Jamie Kaler:

I'm working harder now than I ever did when all those credits were being made. Yeah,

I would bust my ass. I would get ready. And also acting is about physicality. I would make sure I was in shape. I'd work out, I'd do all this stuff, and then I would go either do an audition and then there'd be downtime, and you'd be like, all right. All right. And then you'd kind of ramp it up again. Now it's like just constant blinders on of, and then the problem also I see is the follow-up. When you performed on stage, you either got to laugh right then and there, and you moved on. But now my wife, we have long conversations on Instagram as well.

Michael Jamin:

What does she do? What does she do on Instagram? What does she, I don't even know what does, she

Jamie Kaler:

Works in the pharmaceutical industry.

Michael Jamin:

So why is she, oh, I think you told me. Why is she on Instagram? Oh, does she post on Instagram?

Jamie Kaler:

She posts, but she has her own page, and then so she's very specific about it. She'll edit and quiz me and I go, do you want to hear my, I don't care. Nobody cares. Just post it. But it's like, well, what do you think this picture or this? I go, nobody cares. What song do you think this song? Is this song saying too much about me? Or should I feel like maybe I should use it? Should it just be instrumental? I go, okay, I don't care. The trick is to post and walk away. And then people will, for the rest of the day, scroll, because it's the dopamine of like, oh, so-and-So ooh, did you know? So-and-So just like that post I put up this morning, I don't know where this ends, but I find that some days if I just do something physical where I'm digging in the garden in the backyard, it's the greatest three hours of my life where I'm like, I didn't think about anything. I don't know. I don't know where it ends, but yeah. But we're also too, get off my lawn old guys who are like, why? You might have kids,

Michael Jamin:

But how much time do you think you put on social media every day, either way that you're working on or thinking of working on it or whatever?

Jamie Kaler:

Well, so I wasn't really, I never cared. I never cared. It was just recently that I've started to make an effort during the pandemic kind of destroyed me. I stayed with two kids. I had a kindergartner and a second grader, and my wife was working 12 hours a day. We have an office in the house where she was gone. Oh, wow. We didn't see her for 12 hours a, and I think part of it, she was hiding because it was the pandemic. We also having construction done on the house, it was arguably the worst time in my life. So I was trying to maintain the kids. So I printed out schedules. I made them put their school uniforms on. I took two desks. I set them up on opposite ends of the house. They were doing it on Zoom, but one's in kindergarten and one's on second grade.

So they weren't old enough to really go. I got it at nine 40. They'd be released for recess. I'd have to get them snacks at 1130. It was lunch at two 50. School ended, and then we were trying to maintain sanity. So I started this kind of parental mental health zoom at night. And obviously we were drinking extensively pandemic mental health, but drinking, it was mental health, and we were sipping hardcore and sharing horrible stories. And so it grew into this. I started this thing called the Dad Lands, and it just grew. It was just Zoom. It wasn't even a podcast or anything. And that kind of caught on. I mean, there were guys, I was like, dude, don't kill yourself. We're going to get through this thing guys. Were hanging on by a thread. And we made ourselves all feel better because we were seeing that everyone else was going through this nightmare.

And that eventually grew into the Parents Lounge podcast with my other buddy who was in it. He was doing Dad Apocalypse. I was doing Dad Lands. We started a podcast. I'm not a promoter, so I really love doing the podcast. We were doing it live. You've come and done it. The parents lounge, it's super fun. It's a parental mental health night. I've kind of laid off the sauce since then, and all of a sudden it kind of grew into this thing, but we never marketed it. We would just throw it out there and then the other dude would put it up on iTunes, but we wouldn't even put a post of like, Hey, Dave Ners on this Monday. Nothing. Just threw it in the ocean, because I don't want to be a marketer. I didn't move to Hollywood to be a publicist. It's not what I do.

So finally, we're at the crap or get off the pot phase of look, we have a pretty good following, considering we haven't put one ounce of work into the promotional part of it. And so finally, everyone's like, look, dude, you either have to become a promoter or you are wasting your time. You need to monetize. We could do some live gigs here and there, but all of a sudden ruffle came in, Justin ruffle was our partner in this thing. And all of a sudden everyone's like, all right, so I committed. I'm committing to trying like you with a book where I feel like we have a really great product. How do we get people to see it? And you're like, this is the way to do it. So we went out and I enjoy stuff like this where we have conversations and we get in depth on stuff. But as far as just constantly putting up a story with a link to the podcast to do this and stuff, well,

Michael Jamin:

That you can outsource, that's easy. We're

Jamie Kaler:

Outsourcing it. And so we finally started outsourcing it, and I hadn't outsourced it at all, but it's like I equate it to the Gold Rush. It's like the people who really got rich during the Gold Rush where Levi Strauss and Woolworth and the guys who sold the Pickaxes. So at some point, I should become the outsource guy or something. But yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Do you see, okay, what are your aspirations with the show? What would you like it to become, if anything?

Jamie Kaler:

So I love doing the show. I would love a strong following where we've kind of branched off to do other stuff. But honestly, live shows. We have done a few and we're starting to book more. And then to monetize it to a degree, once you start putting all the work into it, you're like, well, maybe we should at least see something. But the

Michael Jamin:

Live show, you have to produce, you got to bring in equipment mics, you've got to mix it. No, just

Jamie Kaler:

Literally as comics, we show up. I can't tell you the last time I soundcheck, oh

Michael Jamin:

Wait, wait,

Jamie Kaler:

We're doing the podcast live. You're talking about, but we do it as here's the beauty of what we do. We're already standups. That was a headline in comic touring the country. I did Montreal Comedy Festival. I've been on late night tv. So for me, that's the easy part. When I used to do standup, it was never about the show. It was more I would peek out and go, is anybody here? And the smartest guys on earth were s, Agora Rogan, Cher Joe, coy, who not only were great comics, but they were also really good at marketing themselves. And so those guys were doing mailing lists for 30 years and building, and I wasn't. I would go sets went great, crush it, and then go have a couple cocktails at the bar. I didn't have kids either. I didn't really care about trying to blow it up. So it was never about the show. It was about getting eyes on it. And I feel like that's where we're at now. We have such a strong, every time we go do it, we crush live. And the question is, how do we get other parents and people to go? This would be a great show to come to. That's really the marketing part of it.

Michael Jamin:

The tour as Right? Is it all, so it's improv or is it scripted, or what is the

Jamie Kaler:

Show? We have acts, I have two albums on iTunes.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay. So it's a comedy show show.

Jamie Kaler:

It's a standup comedy show that the Skis is a podcast, really. And we would bring our guests with us, maybe we talked about having Lemi and Heffernan come out and do the podcast live with those guys, but it would be billed as the parents lounge live with these special guests. But it's really a standup show for the audience with under the guise of a podcast. And we have bits and we would do improvisational stuff set up and questions with the audience, for the guests and for everybody else. But we just did, and we did it in Sara, Pennsylvania in the fall. And it was like two hours of just, I'm not even sure I touched that much of my material. We were, we were riffing hard, but we always had the material to step back on. It's like that's my favorite is you have these tracks, but you get off the tracks, you fool around. And if all of a sudden it starts to lag a little bit, you go, all right, here's some bits and then bring 'em back in.

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity. And Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.

I mean, I don't know. I see people doing it online. I'd be doing exactly what you're saying. They take their podcast on the road and somehow, how do you think they're selling tickets though?

Jamie Kaler:

Because their followings are so strong that people, a lot of times also, I see these shows, and to me, the shows, I go, there's no show here. It's just this guy showed up. It's basically a two hour meet and greet. But honestly, that's what some people love. They don't even care. They just want to be in the same room. The guy will tell a couple stories, they'll play some bits on, they'll play bits on a screen and make it a show and they'll record the podcast live. But people are so enthralled by people chatting, I really missed my window. It really was my strong suit back in the day of just riffing and going along with stuff and being in the moment and chatting. But podcasts wasn't happening. And at the time when podcasts started, I was like, are we going back to radio? Why would people listen to podcasts? I was shocked. And yet off

Michael Jamin:

They were. But your brand is, you're trying to aim it towards parents or men dads, is that right?

Jamie Kaler:

Well, it's all parents and no, we've toured with moms. We usually take out moms. We've had Tammy Pesca, Kira svi on the show, Betsy Stover. We just had Nicole Birch. I mean, I think you need a mom's point of view. So when we do live shows, we typically bring out a mom as well with us.

Michael Jamin:

But you're talking, but is the focus basically on kids and parenting?

Jamie Kaler:

It is to a degree. But I also, sometimes we'll watch some of those shows and it's like sometimes parents don't want to talk about kids, so we kind of go where we go, and it's about life. The whole thing was trying to get people to understand that you see Instagram and you think your life. You're like, why isn't my life like that? The point of our podcast is really to go, nobody's life like that, dude. I mean, when's the last time you met someone who just was not absolutely full of shit? Have you met anybody who's not just full of shit? Anyone? Well,

Michael Jamin:

The thing is, especially in Hollywood, a lot of people were trying to hype themselves up. And I discovered early on, this is 30 years ago, that was the people who were talking most about their career really had nothing going on. And the people who didn't talk about it, they didn't talk about specifically, they didn't want people to hit 'em up for a job.

Jamie Kaler:

Know what I'm saying? And I said that exact 0.2 days ago, I was talking to Lori Kmar and she was just saying the same when I got here, if you were the one who were like, look at me, look at me. People were like, that guy's a loser.

It was almost, and then all of a sudden, humble, I blame it on humble brag, humble brag. Do you remember hashtag Humble brag? That was the first one where people, it's really just a brag. You see humble, but you're really just bragging. But back in the day, I remember doing Friends and Will and Grace, and it was big. It was big. And I really didn't tell anybody. People would come in and talk to me and go, dude, were you weren't friends last night. And I was like, I was. And they go, why wouldn't you tell us? And I go, it seems dirty. I felt dirty bragging about what I was doing. But nowadays, if you're not constantly brag, brag, brag, brag, brag. People are like, well, I guess he doesn't have anything to promote.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I remember even just people, I'm in the business, they'll say, so humble to accept this. I'm so humbled to accept this award, whatever, where they might've been in sales or whatever. It's like, but you're using the word humbled wrong. That's not what humbled humble means. You're literally bragging.

Jamie Kaler:

I feel that way every time when I'm acting and the director goes and cut, that was perfect. We're going to do it again. And I go, you're using the word perfect improperly. Perfect means there's nothing better. I think that's exactly the meaning of perfect. And you're not using it correctly. I know

Michael Jamin:

One of the things that I always get, this is my pet peeve about being a writer. You'll turn in a draft of a pilot you've been working on for months, and you just turn it in and then they'll say, great. We're setting up a notes call for Wednesday. Isn't it possible you love it? You know, don't like it? You already know there's something you want change. It's like

Jamie Kaler:

You didn't even read the title and you're like, I have notes.

Michael Jamin:

I have notes. Of course you do.

Jamie Kaler:

Well, listen, if they didn't have notes, they wouldn't have a job. And so I think they're like, well, I mean, we have to find something wrong with this thing. They would get the screenplay for the sting and go, I mean, does the guy have to have a limp? I don't get the Robert Shaw limp. It's like, dude, can you just go, this is pretty great. And also you're not a writer. It's not what you do.

Michael Jamin:

It's hard to, now you're killing me.

Jamie Kaler:

I did a show one time, I won't say the name of the show, but I did a show. It didn't go anywhere, but my character is a car salesman. I see these two guys come into the showroom and I want to sell them a car, and I think they're gay, so I pretend to be gay. This is of course, back in the time when I guess you could do that without being canceled. So I act gay to them to get them to buy the car, and we're going to be friends and stuff. And at the end of the episode, my character then kisses a woman who's another salesperson as the reveal. He's not gay. He was doing it to do that, whatever. So all week, all week, the studio execs keep coming over and they go, dude, you got to gay it up. You got to amp it up. We are not getting the joke. You have to play this extremely gay. And then they would walk away and the showrunner would walk over and go, dude, I want you to play it dead straight. I don't want you to play gay whatsoever. So after every take two people kept coming over, giving me completely opposite notes, and I didn't know who.

Michael Jamin:

Wait, I a little, go ahead, finish your story because I want to

Jamie Kaler:

Jump on it. So I'm in the middle. I'm doing it. I'm not pleasing either of them, right? I'm right in the middle of guess, maybe a little after. I don't know. And I have played gay characters numerous times in tv, and usually I don't do anything. It doesn't have to be that way. And so I would play it dead straight. And so the show goes, it's a train wreck of a week. I'm just getting eviscerated on both sides of like, I'm not pleasing anybody because I'm trying to ride the line in the middle of between these 2 180 degree notes, whatever. It's a train wreck. We finished the shoot, I'm miserable. I run into the showrunner maybe three months later and he tells me, oh, he goes, Hey, just so you know, when you do watch it, we were running long for time. So we cut the tag.

I go, you mean the reveal where I kissed the woman? He goes, yeah, we ran out of time and we cut it. I go, then everything I did up to that moment has no justification whatsoever. I goes, this is the craziest thing. He goes, I know. He goes, what are you going to do? It's tv. I go, all right, whatever. And I moved on and I was like, couldn't care less. But you're like, again, art, you wrote something. Your brain had this beautiful story you wanted to unfold. And then commerce and everybody has to prove that they're part of the mix and they can't be hands on.

Michael Jamin:

I'm very surprised that you got notes directly from a studio executive. That's inappropriate. They're supposed to go through the director. I

Jamie Kaler:

Thought the exact same thing. And people, it's not how it worked. They came right up to me. Oh, I've had that many times. I've had studio people talk to me all the time. Yeah, well, also, I wasn't a star. I was a guest.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, but still you're not, first of all, the DGA can file a grievance over that if they were to complain the DGA, I think that's part of the thing. But here's how I would've, if I were you, this is what I would've done. I would've done one take over the top and one place straight. Okay, I'm going to do two different takes, two different. And you decide later which one you want to use.

Jamie Kaler:

I think I did do that to some degree. I don't think I said it out loud about you have fun and edit, and also you as a guest star. It's the greatest job, but it's also the worst job. It is. These people have been locked and loaded. I did friends the week I did it, they were on the cover of Rolling Stone. They'd been burned in the press when they spoke. They weren't outwardly mean to me, but they also weren't like, Hey, welcome to the, they spoke to each other in hushed tones away from, and I didn't blame them. They couldn't go to a supermarket. They were just famous beyond belief. But the set was tense, super tense because a lot riding, not a lot of money on this thing. The shoot was eight hours long after four, they got rid of the first audience, brought a whole nother audience in, and you start to watch the sausage get made and you're like, this is supposed to be fun and comedy, but sometimes these things are super tense.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. So interesting. Do you have any experiences that were great sets that you love working on?

Jamie Kaler:

So many and listen, even that set the cast was great and friends was great. It was here was the greatest thing about doing friends, or even honestly Will and Grace. I watched Will and Grace, I watched the four of them. Dude, they were a machine combined with the writing staff and Jim Burrows directing. It was like a masterclass, the four of them. And they would rewrite on the fly, they'd do one take and almost rewrite the entire scene. And then you would, they'd go, Jamie, here's your new lines. And I did six episodes over the years and each time I went back it was like, you better bring your A game. Because they would change the whole scene. And they go, so you enter here now you say this and then he's going to say this and you're going to go and you're playing spinning at the four of them. Man, they were honestly maybe the best cast I've ever seen. Really. It was like a Marks Brothers. They just were so perfect in their timing. It was pretty impressive.

Michael Jamin:

I had Max Nik on my podcast a few weeks ago talking the showrunner. The funny thing is I was touring colleges with my daughter years ago, not that long ago, whatever. We were touring Emerson. And the tour guy goes, oh, and this is the Max Munic building. He goes, anyone know who he is? I'm like, max gave you a building. Yeah. Does anyone know who he is?

Jamie Kaler:

They were both great. And again, I was overwhelmed because I was so new. And my very first one, gene Wilder, played the boss. I'm the dick in Will's law firm, and I had only done a sitcom or two. And then I got Will and Grace out of nowhere on a crazy afternoon. It was supposed to be another big name guy. And he fell out at the last second. And I got cast and was shooting in the morning and I was terrified. And then I show up in Gene Wilders playing my boss, and I had to do a scene with Willy Wonka. I was like,

Michael Jamin:

No kidding.

Jamie Kaler:

By the way, I didn't start acting until I was 30. I was a Navy lieutenant.

Michael Jamin:

Oh,

Jamie Kaler:

Really? I was the US Navy. Yeah. That's why I played cops a lot. I was a Navy lieutenant. I got out at like 28. I hung around San Diego. Bartended had fun.

Michael Jamin:

Why did you get it so early? I think you're supposed to stay in forever and get a great pension.

Jamie Kaler:

Oh my God. It's like I'm talking to my father. My father banged me. I still have the letters. He and I wrote back and forth where I told him I was getting out and he was so pissed

Michael Jamin:

Because

Jamie Kaler:

He was a pilot. My dad flew in World War ii, my brother was an admiral, and I got out to become an actor, and my father was just furious.

Michael Jamin:

Whatcha doing? You can one time.

Jamie Kaler:

Then I booked Jag. One of my first TV shows was, well actually my first show was Renegade with Lorenzo Alamas and Bobby Six Killer though, whatever his name is.

Michael Jamin:

I know I'm jumping around, but did you know Kevin and Steve before you got booked on? Yes. Yes you did. From what

Jamie Kaler:

I had done, we bumped into each other once a couple times doing standup. I was doing Thema or something, and then I forget how it's all blurry. I did their podcast, chewing it, and then just kind of hit it off with them. And then they came and did mine. And you talk about sets My boys was my greatest four years of my life. It was just, I met my wife, I bought a house. I was on a billboard on Times Square. We traveled the world. We shot on Wrigley Field in Chicago. I mean, it was glorious. Because of that, I started a headline clubs. It was just this like, oh, here we go. And it wasn't until Tacoma FD where I was on a set where, oh, people came early, people stayed late. You were almost going. It was like it brought you back. A kid being going to theater camp, going, well, here, I'm making a show. But again, as you know, it goes by the eps and number one on the call sheet and that dictates the tenor of the show tone. And they were

Michael Jamin:

Both the same. Yeah,

Jamie Kaler:

Yeah. And those guys, that sets a family, literally everybody. And that's why you also have to be really careful. You can't say anything because everybody's related to everybody and they're all friends. And then Soder came and played Wolf Boykins. And I will tell you, I was super, I love those guys. But there's also a little jealousy of, I've always been a team sport guy. I love Sketch probably more than I like standup because there was something about being on stage with other humans and this chemistry. And then you would get off stage and you're like, can you believe how great that just went? There was this, when you would do standup, it's just you. And when you walk off stage, if you bomb or you crush, you own it. But when you are with a group, I love the group dynamics. Interesting to those guys credit the whole broken lizard.

I wish I had the state. I'm jealous of those guys a little bit. Kids in the hall, when I first got out, I had an improv group in San Diego and we ended up doing, we got on the front page. I had been out of the Navy like a year. It was in this crazy improv troop, had no idea what I was doing. And there was three other dudes in it. And the comedy club, the improv, started to hire us to be the feature act. And we would get up. We had no mic, so we'd kind of eat it and then the headliner would come out and go, what the blank was that jackasses? And then do his standup act. But I always wanted that group. You have a comedy partner, you write, you partner. I like that more than the solitary thing. And honestly, to go back to the podcast really quickly, the parents lounge, we didn't have a team.

We had no team. And so it wasn't until I brought Phil Hudson and Kevin Lewandowski and then Justin Ruppel and his guy Taylor. And all of a sudden I had a group of people behind me who were like, Hey man, this is a really great product. Let's go. So I guess I'm just a team guy. And when I got to that set at Tacoma fd, I'm so sad it's gone because I just, that and my boys are probably the two highlights of my career, really, personally of joy, of going to work, not feeling pressure like Man Will and Grace. It was fun. It was invigorating, it was exciting, scary. It's a little scary, man. You're like a lot of money. There's a huge audience. There's superstars who are making a million dollars a week. I'd leave the table read and go, that dude just walked with 200 k Monday.

Thank you. Monday, 200 K what it must be, same on basketball teams where it's like LeBron James and then that dude from Australia. There's a dynamic there where you're like, yeah, you're not flying home in a jet, my friend. I am. It was weird. So Tacoma fd, those guys never once ever made you feel bad about trying stuff, doing a take where you just explore and you could be funny and you let it rip. I equate it back to Seinfeld. I don't know what it was like on the set, but Seinfeld was one of the few shows where they let the guest stars actually get sometimes bigger laughs than the main cast, which I always find in shows to be the true genius of a show where everyone's there, it's a play. Let it rip. I've been on shows where they, I'll blow it up. I was on the seventies show and I had a couple scenes, and I played this goofy guy with a wig on or whatever, and crushed. I mean, I was a nerd. I was a comic book nerd. Huge laughs. And they took me aside and were like, Hey man, just so you know, you will never get a bigger laugh than the main cast,

So you might want to tone it down or we're going to be here all day shooting. And I go, really? And they go, I thought they were joking. And they were like, nah. Yeah. Wow. I probably shouldn't say I'm the worst too. I'll burn myself to say stuff. Well, it's interesting. This business is crazy, man. And you sit there and you think we're just making comedy, but people are,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, some people are like that.

Jamie Kaler:

Yeah. People get their feelings hurt. Those little memos where it's like, don't look so and so in the eye. And you think they're joking. They're not joking.

Michael Jamin:

You've gotten those memos.

Jamie Kaler:

I haven't personally. Well, I worked on some big movies where it was like, but I also am not the crazy person who walks up to Christian Bale on Vice and goes, Hey man, dark Knight. Huh? You crushed

Michael Jamin:

It.

Jamie Kaler:

I sat next to Christian Bale for a day shooting and he was Dick Cheney unrecognizable. By the

Michael Jamin:

Way, this guy might be the

Jamie Kaler:

Greatest actor who's ever lived. And he leaned over and he was so nice. Everyone was super kind, but he was nice to meet you. And he talked like Dick Cheney. He goes, nice to meet you. I'm Christian. I go, it's nice to meet you too. But I'm kind of laid back and I try not to, but other people will walk up to Bruce Willis on a set some extra and be like, Hey man, can you read my screenplay? And you're like, dude, read the room. What are you doing?

Michael Jamin:

What are you doing? What are you doing? People

Jamie Kaler:

Are crazy. That's the problem. And crazy people are drawn to this business. So yeah, I mean, if I was Tom Cruise, I might be the guy who look, just keep everyone away from me. I'm trying to get my job done here.

Michael Jamin:

Well, you know what though? I mean, I was working in Paramount doing a show and they were shooting, I guess some scenes from Mission Impossible. And he had his trailer, Tom Cruise had his trailer, a giant trailer, and then he had a whole tunnel that he would walk through from his trailer to go to the sound stage because he didn't want people in on the lot looking at him when he walked to the set or bothering him, I don't know. Which I thought was very strange. I was like, but we're all even on Paramount in the business. I guess were bothering would harass him. I'm like, Jesus, this is supposed to be a set studio

Jamie Kaler:

People. And it's even worse now. You go to a broad, remember when people dressed up to go to Vegas? I remember going to Vegas in the eighties and nineties and we brought a sport coat right now it's like cargo shorts, flip flops and beer hat or something. And you're like, there's just no decorum anymore. And people are so, and they're trained by their videos that they can yell and do whatever they want. People go to Broadway shows and just yell out and you're like, what are you doing, man? It's a plane. Whatcha

Michael Jamin:

Yeah? What are you doing? People

Jamie Kaler:

Are horrible. I know when people, I always laugh when people are like, no, I think deep down people are good. Some, I would argue a good hunk not no have no manners.

Michael Jamin:

That's probably a remnant from social media where they feel like they can just comment and be mean because they're anonymous, I guess.

Jamie Kaler:

Well, I think the good thing about social media is that everyone can have their opinion heard. But the worst thing about social media is that everyone can have their opinion heard. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Jamie Kaler:

I love when people like they're uneducated. They've never left their small town America. And they're like, no, no, I am 100% certain this is a fact. And you're like,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Jamie Kaler:

When's the last time anyone has said you've raised some really strong points. I'm going to rethink my position.

Michael Jamin:

When you do see that, it always stands out to me. It's like, wow, look at you and humble. It does stand out. We'll do

Jamie Kaler:

That. Listen, we're all guilty of it. Even just recently, my wife said something to me, I can't remember exactly what it was, and I think your spouse is the one who can really cut you to the bone. And she said something and I was like, what do you know? And then later I thought about it and I was like, no, she's right. I have been, oh, here's what she said. Here's what she said, something about a post I had. And she said, you just come off angry. And I said, no, no. I'm a comic. I'm pretending to be angry. And I think I went back and I watched the Post and it reminded me back to early on at Acme Comedy Theater, I had this sketch where I was with woman and we were on a date, and it was very Jerry Lewis props humor where I kept getting hurt.

I kept getting hurt. The window smashes in my hand, it ends by me lighting a candle and I actually lit my arm on fire and then would roll it out as the lights came down or whatever, and it crushed. It did so well. And one night it just absolutely bombed, just bombed. And I kept pushing harder and harder and it was bombing, and I got off stage and I talked to the director and I was like, dude, terrible audience. Tonight goes, no, no. He goes, your problem was you didn't play frustrated, you played and it didn't work. And I go, what a specific note. And I've always thought about that because me personally with my angular features, you have to go with what you look like as well. And if I play frustrated, I'm super funny, but if I play angry, I come off angry. And so she was right and I had to go. I think maybe in life everybody needs a director because you forget. It's really hard to self-direct yourself because you get lost in these megaphones of your own things that you're like, no, no, I'm on track. This is going great. Instead of going, I wonder how the outside world perceives me.

Michael Jamin:

That's exactly right. Yeah. When I recorded the audio book for my book, I needed to be directed. Even though I direct, I don't know how I'm coming off. Yeah, I mean that's actually probably the most profound thing I've heard today. Well, the day just started, but everyone needs to have a director.

Jamie Kaler:

Yeah, it is kind of crazy. Yeah, it's weird because we also get caught up in our own, listen, I will say the world is, and I know I'm an older cat and I look back at simpler time. I don't want to be that guy. I was like, it was easier, but it was easier. I equate it to even crosswalks lately when you were younger, if you were going to take that right turn and the dude was crossing the crosswalk, everyone would make eye contact and they'd hold their hand up and then they might even jog a couple steps to go like, no, no, we're in this together. We're a team. No. And nowadays I go, dude, are you trying to get hit by a car? You didn't even look up? Didn't even look up deliberately, and it feels like you're slowing your walk down. It's so odd what's happening. But I do think, listen, back in the day, people used to, if you were in front of somebody's house and you were waiting for them, you'd pull your car over and slide it up, maybe a few cars up. Now they just put it right in the middle of the street, hit their hazard lights and just wait. And you'll be behind them and they go, I don't care. I don't even know why they sell cars with rear view mirrors. They should just get rid of it. No one's looking behind them. Nobody cares about anybody

Michael Jamin:

Else. That's so interesting. Yeah, I mean, you're right about that lot people crossing the, I always think that, boy, you really are trusting of me. You really trust me not to hit you with my car. Jesus. Isn't that

Jamie Kaler:

Crazy?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, sure you get a payday, but I might kill you.

Jamie Kaler:

I think it was safer back then too because you knew, listen back in those days, you knew to be off the road between 10:00 PM and 2:00 AM when everyone was drunk. Right. You knew it and everyone was like, oh, drunk driving was terrible. Nowadays, 10:00 AM yesterday morning the dude next to me getting high on his phone, so now it's like twenty four seven. That's why I can't believe people, I never crossed the street without making eye contact and going, dude, are you on your phone or are you going to hit me?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you got to look for yourself.

Jamie Kaler:

Exactly. But again, I'm old, so what do I know? It is weird trying to teach my kids and I mean, we've talked because your kid's a little older, but trying to impart knowledge of the world to them to be aware of their surroundings. I always say they're probably years from now, they'll go, like my father always said, read the court. You got to have full court vision. I see it in cars. My wife will be behind one car and I'll go, you can't see that three cars up. That dude stopped. You are changing lanes. I'm looking five cars ahead.

Michael Jamin:

But

Jamie Kaler:

People nowadays, it's just this one little, they just keep their heads down and you're like, pick your head up, man. But people don't.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, be careful. I need to know. So I want to know business right now I'm jumping around, but business is still slow for you in terms of acting gigs because from what I see, they're not shooting a lot. Is that what you were seeing?

Jamie Kaler:

That is true, and I've had a handful of amazing auditions lately. Oh, you have? Okay. So yeah, a ton. Not a ton, but here's the dilemma is they're all self-tapes, right? And I'm pretty good at self-tapes. You can see there's the lights behind me. There's a curtain right above me that comes down, and then I shoot it that way and they're pretty great. And I'm again about trying to be directed. I've asked my agents and my managers and been like, Hey, am I self taping these? Right? And they're like, dude, your self tapes are solid, but even there's no feedback. And I do think back in the day, I got a lot of jobs because I was great in the room. I was probably better in the room than I was as an actor. You could take it. I would get hired because a lot of acting is chemistry, and you want to see that the person you're working with is going to be cool and able to hang and also

Michael Jamin:

Take a note. Can you take a note?

Jamie Kaler:

It's so funny you say that, dude. So lately I was, for a while I was just putting the one take on where I was like, this is how I see this part. But this one I had the other day, it was so good, dude. It was handsome. Adjacent was the breakdown, which I was like, all right, because I've always been, I'm lumberjack good looks. I'm like, I know I've walked into rooms, I've seen Brad Pitt in a room, and I've been like, yeah, that's beautiful. I'm a little al dente. That guy is so gorgeous. I'm on the cover of a paper towel roll. I get it. I know. I'm Portland. I'm Portland. I'm a Portland 10. Portland. I'm a Portland nine maybe. So it's handsome adjacent, early fifties jerk cop. I go, dude, this should be offer only. Why am I reading for this?

Michael Jamin:

Right?

Jamie Kaler:

So I did the first take. I submitted one where I was like, more Tacoma fd, I was. I go, well, maybe that's why I got in here. They know me from that. And then I was going to just submit that one and I said, you know what? Because you can't go in a room, dude, the casting directors are so good that I've had the pleasure to work with Wendy O'Brien who did that one is one of my faves. She'll give you notes that will kind of give you a nuanced performance where you're going, oh, I see the change. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Because hard. And so I did a totally separate take. I had a friend over here and I did another take that was so the opposite extreme of he wasn't big at all. He was very underplayed in tone. And when I sent them in, my agent said, he goes really great that you did two separate takes.

And I said to him, it's a new show. I've never seen it. I don't know what the tone is. There's no direction. You're literally reading this hoping that your take jives with the guys who are going to hopefully see this tape or not. I don't know. And I also submitted it. The audition came out on Monday. It was due Thursday. I memorized it submitted on Tuesday. The other thing they tell you, they go early, bird gets the worms. So the business has changed so much. You're working really hard to pump these things out, but you're like, is anyone seeing any of it? It would be nice if somebody once just called and was like, Hey man, you're not getting it, but I got to tell you, you did a really good job, man. You what you get in a room or if sometimes you don't, sometimes. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So interesting. The life of an actor. So what is left for you as you wrap up, what is left for you today? What does your day look like today, an average day for you?

Jamie Kaler:

So we are relaunching the podcast. We have an advertiser that's just come on board. We are currently on Buzzsprout, but we're going to jump to megaphone and we're actually, we're still doing the live ones on Tuesday nights 7:00 PM Pacific Time. It's on right now. It's everywhere. Facebook, Instagram, Twitch, YouTube, it goes out live. We're going to slowly bring that back in and we are jumping to Patreon. So come find us. The parents lounge on Patreon, and then we are, so we're doing all the marketing right now, and then I'm still working with the same guys you work with who have been eyeopening. It's like a master's class in this business of social media about getting people on. Because again, I feel like we have a really solid product that people not only and enjoy, but I think it helps parents kind of understand that it takes a village and not to get consumed in your day-to-Day. This is not to end on a terrible note, but we went to a funeral yesterday, one of the parents at my kid's school passed away, cancer Young with young kids, and we were all having a meltdown early in the day about whatever garbage problems we had on. And then we all got there and we were like, this is eye opening, right? This is like what? I can't believe I was bitching about

Such and such earlier in the day then. So especially as a parent, I mean, I became a parent late in life, and so I lived a glorious thirties and forties, but now my life's kind of consumed by others, and so I see people in the middle of the country are hanging on. It's tricky times. The government's in disarray. It's an election year. Prices are through the roof with all these fires and everything, insurance rates are going up and people are literally day to day of like, Hey man, I don't think this is tenable. I don't know how we're going to get through this. So on the parents' lounge, we try to bring in a little seriousness, but a lot of humor and make everyone go, all right, I guess we're all in the same boat. So that's kind of our mainstay. Now we're building everything towards the relaunch of the podcast in a few weeks. Parents Launch, come check it out.

Michael Jamin:

And they should also follow you where

Jamie Kaler:

At Jamie Kaler on Instagram, I usually do some daily posts about my kids and all comedy. All comedy. And then we'll be touring. So the website will be up. Actually, Phil is, our boy is building it as we speak, Jamie kaler.com will be up. But come find us at the Parents Lounge and Social Media on Facebook at Jamie Kaler and excellent.

Michael Jamin:

Thank you so much for joining me today. This was a good chat.

Jamie Kaler:

Thank you so much. Honestly, again, this has been cathartic in a way of, I do think especially what you do, conversation is an art form, and I think it's falling by the wayside because people are so enthralled with these tiny little morsels of entertainment, and so the spoken word is being lost. I'm making my children read out loud a lot. We read out loud a lot because I think it's a dying art and hopefully the pregnant pause will come back one day.

Michael Jamin:

Excellent. Jamie, thank you again. The parents' lounge. Go follow 'em on social media. It's a great talk. Alright, man. Thanks.

Jamie Kaler:

Thanks brother. Thanks for having me.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertisers supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

Show Notes

A Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/book

A Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1

A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4

A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Michael Jamin:

And why are we rooting for him? We're rooting for this meek man who's going to die soon to make some money for his family, but also to feel like he's alive for the first time in his life because he's just lived this very meek existence. And so that's why we're rooting for him. That's why we like him. And when he makes mistakes, he may go off track, but we hope he comes back. We're still rooting for him. You are listening to What The Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin and you're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, today we're doing another q and a from II's free writing webinars, and there's a lot of questions that people had. We couldn't answer 'em all on the end. We ran out of time, and so we're going to address 'em here. But this episode, Phil, I'm here with Phil Hudson.

Phil Hudson:

What up, Phil?

Michael Jamin:

Today's episode is brought to you by a paper orchestra, which is my collection of personal essays. It's David Saris meets Neil Simon on sale on my website, michael jamin.com, or you can find it anywhere. Books are sold, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, apple Books, all those places. Go get it. Go check it out. It's a fun read. Yeah. Okay.

Phil Hudson:

Worth checking out all the versions though too. I was just listening to the audio book and we talked about this in your episode about the book itself, but the music cues and the intros, very well done. Very well produced. You're also telling me about, thank you, Phil, how hellacious of a process it was to do it

Michael Jamin:

To

Phil Hudson:

The quality you like.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. Because you only get to put it out once, but yeah. But thank you. So Phil got the audio book, but it's available ebook and print as well, however you consume your written materials. Love it. Alright, Phil, we got some questions. Enough about me. Let's ask me some questions.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, let's talk to you some more about you. This is from the November 18th webinar. These are like you said, q and A stuff, and the topic of this webinar was how professional screenwriters create great characters. This was, I think, a first run on this topic. You hadn't done this topic before.

Michael Jamin:

It could be. Yeah, this was a good one. Yeah, this turned out to be a good one I thought.

Phil Hudson:

I think so too. We can tell, there's some metrics we can tell in terms of how long people stay, questions that are asked, how long it goes. And I was going to say too, we didn't get to these questions because typically when we first started doing this almost a year ago, February will be a year doing these. It was like 30 minutes of lesson and then it was a bunch of q and a and that has transitioned into about 45 minutes of lesson and then a little bit of q and a where we can get it. And then we even have VIPQ and A now where you can just pay a small fee to join for an hour after and you just talk to people on Zoom and they get to go live and ask you questions and some really, really good questions being asked in that. So if you're interested in attending these webinars, go to michael jamin.com/webinar where you can sign up for that. But then you can also sign up on that page to get into the VIP. If you want to ask Michael directly a question that you have if you

Michael Jamin:

Can't get to it. So to be clear, the webinars are always free, and if you want to spend extra time with me, that costs you something. But I should also say right now it seems like we have four that we're going to have a rotation, but we may keep adding different topics, but right now we have four good ones, so if you missed it, just sign up and maybe we'll do it again. Correct

Phil Hudson:

Me if I'm wrong, but I think some of the topics you've come up with have come from the q and a that you do on these topics. How do I overcome? Writer's block are like, I'm really struggling with a character or development. So they kind of incept the idea of like, okay, here's a topic we should go down. So lots of great value there. Alright, well again, just for housekeeping, we do split these up into topics. So we have kind of general topics. We have craft breaking in questions related to your course or the webinar topic and then miscellaneous. So we're going to start with K Craft. I think again, people want to know how to do the job, which I think is helpful.

Michael Jamin:

Yes.

Phil Hudson:

So Chad, Chad Siime or cme, I don't know how to pronounce that. Sorry, Chad,

Michael Jamin:

He doesn't, doesn't know either.

Phil Hudson:

He probably's probably making it up. Was it like Ari, one of the writers in Taco, they pronounced their name. It was changed at one point.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, he says his own name wrong. Poor guy.

Phil Hudson:

I know someone who was a Heinrich and then when World War II happened, they changed it to Heinrich, Henrik Henrich because they didn't want to be associated.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah.

Phil Hudson:

There you go. Chad asked, do you have examples of writers who have successfully experimented with story structure? What principles did they stick to and where did they deviate?

Michael Jamin:

I don't really know. I mean, I don't really know if I have a good answer to that. Every time I watch something I go, oh, it falls into the good. I guess there's some really high level writing. Christopher Nolan. Okay. So I would say many of his movies do not fit what I would teach, like Memento, but Forget or Inception. I don't know how many times I've watched it and I still don't understand it. So it's a great movie though.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. But I would say that I can see that clearly the writing structure in those.

Michael Jamin:

You can. Okay.

Phil Hudson:

Oh yeah, you're definitely an inception too. It's like how do we get on this journey and how are we making decisions and where this stakes, all that stuff. I think it's all,

Michael Jamin:

A lot of it playing at the timeline, memento when he's playing with it. I don't even know what year it's supposed to

Phil Hudson:

Be. You're right. But I wonder if that's, it's all there and it's just been split to change and mess with your head a bit, but it's all there, which is why it resonates with people.

Michael Jamin:

But I guess my advice is like, listen, if you want to operate at the high level, that's great, but let's just get to the professional level first before you become the master

Phil Hudson:

Level. And Christopher Nolan's a great example of that because he had made a feature before he did Memento, so he had a full feature. He was making short films all the time in film school before he even started experimenting with timelines and things like that. Yeah, okay. Listen to me just arguing. Michael jamin on his own podcast.

Michael Jamin:

What do I know? You might be

Phil Hudson:

Right, maybe my head did get big. Kevin and Steve. Alright, Marianne wants to know, you have such a great understanding of human nature. Was there something you've always been good at or did you develop it as a writer?

Michael Jamin:

No, I didn't. I have a very low emotional iq. My parents are great people, well, great parents, but terrible, low emotional IQs themselves just because that's the household they grew up in. And so it's not a knock on them, it's just like this is the product of your parents. This is how they communicate. And so a lot of this I learned I gained from my wife just from being with her. And then the rest of it, of course, I learned as I became, I became a writer because that's your job as a writer is to really understand people and to get into their shoes. And one of the, it's so funny, I've spoken about this in the past, but my first writing teacher was a guy who really wanted everyone to be in psychoanalysis. That's what he called it because he was so old. They don't even call it like that anymore.

It's psychotherapy. But he thought every writer has to be in psychoanalysis because if you don't understand yourself, how could you possibly understand someone else and you or a character? And I think he's absolutely right. I didn't want to believe he was right, but he is right. If you don't understand yourself, and most people do not, and we know this because they go through life unconscious of the people of the damage they're leaving, of the people they're hurting because they're just not even aware of it. And you see it all the time. You could see it on social media, people saying really mean things. It's like you might even be a good person, but why would you put that in print? What is wrong with you that you would say that? What part of yourself is so wounded that you think you need to say this in writing? And so I appreciate the compliment, but everyone else, I'm a work in progress and I think writing definitely has helped me.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, that's great. Albert Klein wants to know, and this is again contextual here. These are people who are live chatting questions throughout this episode or this webinar. But I said relatability is key in full caps. I think where you're talking about with the characters. Do these characters need to be relatable? Do I need to understand who they're

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, and it's the same thing with Tony Soprano. How do we relate to a mobster? I don't, and he's probably a sociopath as well, but what we can relate is the fact that we know what it's like to be a boss. Maybe you know what it's like to be a boss, to have people undermining you, your underlings. And he certainly had those problems. We know what it's like to be a father and to have children that are rebellious or whatever. That's the part we relate to with, so we don't relate to the part where he's going to wax somebody because he's late with the whatever. But we do relate to this other issues, which is

Phil Hudson:

Anxiety, the stress and family life. His psychotic mother.

Michael Jamin:

And that's what the show is about. It's not about

Phil Hudson:

Crazy. He deals with his in-laws too. Joey Pants, I think is his brother-in-Law or something, right?

Michael Jamin:

I don't remember what

Phil Hudson:

He was. Yeah. Anyway, it's all relatable because it is just a heightened version of what go through. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

His job is a little more interesting than our job, but it's all, that's not what it's about. It's not about the mafia, it's about the emotions that we all relate to.

Phil Hudson:

Great answer. Reik vid. So do you find the anti-hero more interesting than a traditional hero?

Michael Jamin:

Anti-hero is not even a term I use. I don't know. I think everyone, your hero has to be likable. I don't know. I can't even say I've lost interest. If your character is so unlikable, I don't really care what happens to him or her. I am out. So this notion of anti-hero, I don't even think of your writing that way. You have a hero. I think anti-heroes is one of these terms that, I dunno, expert writers will tell you it's an anti-hero. What?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, people say that. People have said that the whole time since I've said I've wanted to study screenwriting or be a writer publicly said, oh, I'll describe what I like. Oh, you like an anti-hero? Batman's an anti-hero. And I was like, why? He's not goody hoo Superman. You've described him. He is a deeply wounded person who is using every resource he has, all of his willpower to stop other people from suffering.

Michael Jamin:

And how is he, I mean, we were on his side. He's complicated, but we're on his side. We're rooting for him. If we're not, we got a problem.

Phil Hudson:

Alright. What about Walter White

Michael Jamin:

Breaking back? Yeah. What about Walter White? So that's a great, is he an anti-hero? I don't know. Who cares? To me, he's a guy who's dying in the pilot episode. He's dying, he's a teacher, so he doesn't have any money. What is he going to leave his family when he's gone? He's got to come up with money fast. And the only way he knows how to do that fast is by capitalizing on his skillset, which is he's a chemistry teacher so he can make meth in a lab. Does that make him an anti-hero? To me, he's just a hero.

Phil Hudson:

He's a person. And then you find out that he gave up tremendous wealth because that was like, he had that partnership at that company where he had the ability to adjust multimillions of dollars and he's a public school chemistry teacher. So it's those layers of decisions and regret. It's exploring the human condition. Definitely just

Michael Jamin:

And why are we rooting for him? We're rooting for this meek man who's going to die soon to make some money for his family, but also to feel like he's alive for the first time in his life because he's just this very meek existence. And so that's why we're rooting for him. That's why we like him. And when he makes mistakes, he may go off track, but we hope he comes back. We're still rooting for him.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Great. Chad, back again. Chad, how deep should someone go in developing a film or television character knowing that the director actor in the show's evolution will shape their personality?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I mean, you should go deep enough to get their interest so that they want to buy your work or work with you. But just know that's the thing about film. The minute you sign up for a film or you sell your film, the director's in charge, they're the boss. It's their movie. They might fire you. They're going to probably hire five other writers to rewrite the hell out of you. You may not even get screen credit because that'll be arbitrated by the Writer's Guild. Which writer did the most work on it? And so you should do as much possible as work possible to entice people to get on board your project. But once they get on board, you're out. Except in tv, it's a little different tv. The writer is the boss, not the director.

Phil Hudson:

And the actor needs to play that role. Right? You've got to entice them with your writing. And then good for you, man, congratulations. You can cry about it and wipe your tears with a hundred dollars bills,

Michael Jamin:

Right? Or write something. Write a book. If you're so protective, then do it your way. Write a book

Phil Hudson:

Like me.

Michael Jamin:

Listen, like me, a paper orchestra available @michaeljamin.com or Amazon or Barnes and Nobles or Apple Books or anywhere books are found. And now back to our show film. Excellent Commercial Break.

Phil Hudson:

KU Ghana. I'm so sorry. I did not get that right. How would you go about creating a character who is far removed from your life, for example, based on a myth or legend? And it seems like there's a two-parter here, so maybe address

Michael Jamin:

That one. How would I go about, well, what's the second part maybe? Or is it so unrelated

Phil Hudson:

And advice for generating side characters, how to get the balance right between, so,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, that part. I could teach in the course, the side characters, but how do I go about creating characters that are, what was the first that were mythical or something?

Phil Hudson:

If you have characters are so far removed from who you are, and I'm assuming this is the job or the thing they do not necessarily the difference in who they are saying myth or legendary heroes.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Well, I would say try to do some research if you're not modeling it after someone, if a psychopath get to know them and try to figure out steal from them or a family member or someone. And if you don't, then it's on you to do a lot of research. Then you're going to have to get books on people who you want to be authentic. You don't want to, that's part of your job is the research part.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

I prefer to steal, I prefer to steal from people. I know.

Phil Hudson:

There you go. That's why all of his crazy characters are named Phil Hudson. I couldn't figure it out. But this ties back to David s goer's comment about the Man of Steel movie that he wrote and he asked, what's the theme? He's like, it's about fathers and it's like Superman has an Earth father, but he has this other father and it's literally dealing with your father relationships. And then the second one is about mothers, and it's Batman and Superman dealing with this. Both of their mothers are Martha and they're struggling. And so there's this balance even of, we all know what it's like. You can even jump to Iron Man and Civil War when they're fighting and he's fighting. He finds out this other character killed his mom and Captain America is trying to stop him. And he goes, he killed my mom. And he's like, you can't be mad at Iron Man for wanting to fight this guy who's been his ally because he killed his mom. Even if the guy doesn't remember doing it, he kills your mom. So that's all super heightened, super superhero things. But what I'm trying to get to is there's humanity in every character and your life experience mining your life for stories like Michael teaches. That's how you do that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Okay. Kim wants to know what about inner conflict, like being raised strictly religiously and discovering the joys of secular humanism and the transition from the medieval mindset to Renaissance?

Michael Jamin:

Well, you're probably a better person to answer than me.

Phil Hudson:

So this feels very specific to a type of story that they're writing.

But when we talk about internal conflict, this is something I struggle with because as someone who's religious and been raised religious, I'm not anti-religious. I'm still very active in my faith and there are a lot of people who are very interested in what it means to be a Mormon, to be a latter day saint. I've struggled with how to approach that type of story. You've been telling me to write that for a long time, and I've struggled because I don't want to be preachy and I don't want to tear down my faith. And then I did find a balance and that balance is, let me just take a step back and look at all of the characters that I grew up with in this secular religion and what is so intriguing about the mommy blogger, the multilevel marketer, the jock has been who's now a real estate or the guy who went on to sell summer sales and has so much money but zero personality and then puts some interesting character struggling with their faith in the middle of that so you can explore

Michael Jamin:

Because these are all characters that you grew up with in your faith,

Phil Hudson:

The

Michael Jamin:

Multilevel, all of these people. Do you think Mormonism has something? Do you think there's a trait in Mormonism that applies to m multilevel marketing or something?

Phil Hudson:

I do, yeah. There's no better networked religion I think than the LDS faith. You, everything's divided geographically. You have 10 congregations that are geographically divided in what we call a stake. Then you have wards, which is literally a term to define a geographical area. So your neighbors all go to church with you, you do this, you know everybody, you know their name, you're encouraged to know their families and look after them and take care of them. And this is like pioneer heritage. This is a religion that was chased out of city after city, A Mormon extermination order made it legal to kill us in Missouri. And it wasn't appealed until the 1960s or seventies. They circle the wagons mentality of pilgrims or pioneers and they still treat it that way. And so present yourself nicely taken to an extreme is have perfect teeth. Go to the gym for three hours a day, wear nice clothes, live above your means, keep up with the Joneses. Really. It's like I totally see that I didn't grow up in that type of family

Michael Jamin:

In that room. That's interesting to me. See, but you feel like if you were to write

Phil Hudson:

That you'd be caring? No, now I'm saying I know how to do that and I do know how to explore it because I'm not making fun of the religion necessarily or my theology. I am doing something that has always been interesting. It's the hypocrisy,

Michael Jamin:

The hypocrisy,

Phil Hudson:

The hypocrisy of it. And there's a lot of that. It's befriend everybody, but don't play with those kids. They don't go to church. Oh, I see. Interesting. If Jesus said we should love our neighbor as ourselves, then why are we not playing with the kid who's just moved here from South Dakota? So there's all those things. So what I would say advice is you need to look at what is interesting and what's your personal feelings about those things. And I left Utah because I didn't like necessarily the culture. It wasn't about the religion that was prominent there. It was the culture of the people, and that is something I have a lot of opinion about. So why am I not writing about that?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, right. Good,

Phil Hudson:

Good. You'll be getting a draft within the next month or so from

Michael Jamin:

Michael. Good. Send it along. You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker view says those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book and now back to our show.

Phil Hudson:

John wants to know, so if you choose the worst person to go on a journey, does that mean you came up with a scenario or premise or actual journey first? This goes back to in this episode or this webinar, you said it's not about finding the perfect character, it's finding the Yeah. And then I want to let people watch that webinar so they can get this thing here.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. The question basically is which comes first character or the story? And to me it's the story. If most people say, oh, well I'm writing a movie about a guy, whatever comes back from the war with post-traumatic stress syndrome and now have to integrate into the real world, okay, that's the story. So now you have to go, who's the character? What's the best character for that story? Was he a seal, a navy seal or was he one of these accountant pencil pushers? He might've been a grill cook or something and I didn't sign up for this, and now he's coming back to the railroad with PTSD because the bomb went off or something. So that might be more interesting than a seal. I don't know. But you came up with a story first.

Phil Hudson:

Oh, can you imagine? You have legitimate PTSD and there's stories from even World War ii. It's like things are bad when the chef is loading their pistol. When the cook is loading it, they advance so far across the line that the cooking staff are now preparing to defend themselves. That's a problem. So you imagine that guy comes back and he's in a support group and he's like, yeah, I'm just struggling. And people are talking about, well, we dropped in, we night roped fast, roped in at night to get this guy and an IED went off and this guy is like, well, yeah, our position was overrun. I was like, and what did you do? I was like, I was a cook, and it diminishes your PTSD, but it shouldn't. But it's like That's fascinating.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you may go into the army because you want to become a dentist and the army will pay you to become, learn how to become a dentist, but you're not signing up to carry a pistol. You're signing up to drill teeth and somehow if you got PTSD, like you're saying, your base was overrun or a bomb went up or whatever, this is not what I signed up for and that might be interesting.

Phil Hudson:

Very interesting. I want to see that story. Yeah. Four eyes concepts. Can a non-human character be relatable?

Michael Jamin:

Can a non-human character be relatable? Well, they should be relatable. We watch the movie cars, it's about cars, but they're not, not cars. They're people who drawn to look like cars. I mean,

Phil Hudson:

We talked about data, data from Star Trek, right?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Everything should be, no one wants to care about a car.

Phil Hudson:

Wally.

Michael Jamin:

Wally. Exactly. All those are

Phil Hudson:

Short circuit

Michael Jamin:

Smurfs. Yeah, they're people just

Phil Hudson:

Drunk. Johnny five is alive, man.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, so they're not cars or toys. They're people.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Awesome. So it's a craft section. Let's talk questions related to the topic and course Jim Garcia wants to know, how would you approach a true story? Someone they just got the ip, so that sounds like they've optioned it for a CIA badass who did badass things. Would you focus on areas of his life where he isn't such a badass? His complicated backstory?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah, right. To me, it's much more interesting to write about someone's weaknesses than it is to write about their strengths. And so yeah, that's exactly right. What's his problems? What are his weaknesses? That's what I would write about.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. What was that movie you told me to review with Bob Odenkirk where he was like, oh,

Michael Jamin:

What was it called again? I liked

Phil Hudson:

It. I can see the poster getting punched. Yeah, it'll come to me in a second. But that was an example of someone who just seems like a normal regular paper pusher and then you find out he's got this rich backstory, but it's him struggling to get back there. He's not good at it at first. He's like getting his butt kicked.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I like that movie.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. The name will come to me in a second. TJ wants to know when does a scene end or when should you end a scene is probably a better question.

Michael Jamin:

I teach this in a course in bit greater detail, but the scene ends when the character's attitude is no longer the same as it was at the beginning of the scene. And that's when the scene is over. When the character, so for example, well, I got to think now, I won't put it on the spot. I can't think of a, but it is basically a character will get some piece of information and they go, oh, I got to go apologize to her. Or, oh, that does it. I got to rob a bank. It's like now their attitude has shifted. It's slightly different. It was in the beginning, and this is a mistake that most new writers make, is like the scenes continues long after the character. They're continuing to write, even though the scene ended 10 minutes ago. So when the character's attitude is different, has shifted, you're seen is over.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. That's great. Refi wants to know, is story structure pretty much the same worldwide with the exception of cultural differences?

Michael Jamin:

I believe so. What differences difference does the language make? And to be honest, I am interested in stories from other cultures because look, we all have love. Love doesn't change from culture to culture. This culture, you may have a range marriage and this culture, you don't have a range marriage and this culture, a marriage ceremony might look different than this culture's marriage ceremony, but love is love and so you're just writing about the same thing. And I appreciate the window into your world because you have a different culture, but we're all humans. We all share the same human emotions, and so that's where people get hung up. It's like, no. Yeah, it's the same. We're all the same.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I met this kid here who's from Iran here in Los Angeles, and we were chatting and I had the opportunity in film school and at Sundance to catch several Iranian films by this Iranian filmmaker and a couple of his cohorts, and he was so impressed by that because I was able to talk about the story structure of these films. And what's interesting is how they have to navigate the politics of a government that funds everything, but also censors everything and how you have to use show, don't tell, and speaking indirectly to get across your message that kind of is political and anti-government, but have the government fund it and think you're doing good work for them. The other, but it's story is what connects and carries through. And the other great film everyone should check out from 2013 is called The Lunchbox, and it's this beautiful film I saw at Sundance and it ties in culture so beautifully to how we approach story. I would absolutely check that one out. David wants to know how can you add to the skeleton of a good character if you have the basis for a compelling character story, but you feel you need to add more to make your character real?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. One of the things I have in the course is a whole worksheet. It's a chart that you need to Game

Phil Hudson:

Changer.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It's a chart so that you have to fill out a bunch of questions that you have to ask yourself about this character and filling out this chart will really help you flesh out your character in a way you couldn't even imagine. And then there's other characters in this chart, and then you have to say, okay, how does this characteristic, Matt? How do these characters interact? That's another question. And so all of that, if you're really interested, go sign up for my course@michaeljamin.com/course.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. You quickly learn that you're painting all of your characters to be mirrors of each other because you want to talk about that thing, and then it highlights how you can make all of those interactions more beautiful and more interesting, more conflict to just really improve your story. You got that from somebody. Do you want to say who you got that from?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I learned that from Steve Levitan who I worked under. Just shoot me. So much of the knowledge that I teach in this course is just from sitting at the feet of writers who are more experienced than I was.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Do you have your notebook? I don't know if you want to show to people

Michael Jamin:

Every once in a while we take this down,

Phil Hudson:

So this is something we bring up in the webinars, often even give away a free PDF based on this notebook called the insider's guide to terminology, but that's your notes in your career writing, just writing stuff down from conversations, right?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, exactly. I would work with other writers and they'd say something smart and I jot into my notebook, and then when I made the course a couple years ago, I just referred to my notebook. I go, this is what I want to teach.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, it's awesome. This is Christina in our course, and this isn't really a question, but Kevin, who prepped this for me, left it in says in Michael's course, I learned how to figure out once and for all those act breaks that were a real headache for me before story structure is so well explained. It becomes much easier after. Yeah. She's

Michael Jamin:

Had a good lot of success. Christina,

Phil Hudson:

She doing well. I was about to say she's taken her life mind for all these rich stories, and she's written, I think books and then now plays and those plays are being performed and touring. So

Michael Jamin:

Not

Phil Hudson:

Bad. She credits you for helping her figure out how to break the story, but you didn't tell her what life to live and her experience or how to paint the story. You said this is how you tell your story, and she did that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Good for her.

Phil Hudson:

Awesome. We have one question on breaking in. This is from new legend pictures. I've been wondering about writing for a foreign audience. For example, I'd like to write something in the vein of Korean dramas. I know there's probably no way to break it into the US market.

Michael Jamin:

Writing a Korean drama.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, just writing for other things, specifically a Korean drama.

Michael Jamin:

Well, are they Korean or are they American? I

Phil Hudson:

Sounds immediate. It's because this is a foreign audience. Sounds to me like this is someone who really enjoys Korean dramas and wants to take a stab at writing one.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I see. I don't know anything about Korean

Phil Hudson:

Drama. I think you were just saying, is that worth doing to try to break in? Is that a good sample?

Michael Jamin:

I would assume if that's your culture and you can write something, like I said, you can write a story that it could be, I could have a window into your culture. That's interesting to me to see what that's about, but at the end of the day, you still experience love the way I do. It's the same. Sure. If that's your culture, right, and you understand the Korean culture better than because you're Korean. Yeah. Lean into it.

Phil Hudson:

Lean into it. What if you're not Korean and you just like ca dramas,

Michael Jamin:

Then you're in dangerous territory. Someone might say, what do you know you're talking about? Or people might have a problem with you. I don't want to debate whether it's right or wrong, but you make run into trouble with that.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I would think that if you want to just write it to get it out of your system and it helps you improve your craft, great. But be tread lightly. Right. Next. Do most shows have, this is the same person, do most shows have each episode have their own full story arc? Or is it the whole season or the series or both?

Michael Jamin:

Well, every episode has to have a complete story, and then you may have a longer a story arc. This character is going back to college for the first time, but that one episode has to feel fulfilling. It has to feel like, yeah. Okay. And that there has to be a story in that episode. If it's not a complete story, people are going to be bored by it. And then the next episode, you're taking that journey a little further, but this is a question whether you want to serialize or your project or not. But again, you don't need to worry about any of this. You need to write one complete compelling episode of television. You don't need to worry about seasons, episodes two through 10. Just give me one damn good episode. Give me the pilot. That's all I need.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Ruth wants to know, say your agent is into a spec script, but you want to pursue it, can you try to pitch it yourself? How bound are you to what your agent wants?

Michael Jamin:

I wonder if they're talking about me or themselves.

Phil Hudson:

I think what they're saying is like, Hey, I have an agent and I've got the spec script. It's a film and my agent says he's not into it. Can I go pitch it myself or do I have to listen to my agent?

Michael Jamin:

No, you can do whatever you want. I, but I don't expect your agent to help you with that. If you want to go for it, they can't stop you go for it. I mean, the agent's trying to help you, and if they feel like they're helping you, they're going to give you their best advice. But if you don't want to take it, don't take it.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I was listening to an interview with Dead Mouse, and he said that there was a track that he wasn't really into, and his tour manager was like, dude, this is great. You got to drop it. And he didn't want to do it. And for months and months he didn't. And they kept tour manager kept saying, when are you going to drop it? And he ran out of stuff. He dropped it. It's his biggest hit. Sometimes you don't even know what is good for you, but Vice First is sometimes other people don't know what's good for you, and it's all risks, risk and reward. William, go for it. David Cook is Amadeus. Amadeus is I think something that came up in the webinar.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I love that movie.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. My wife's favorite film. I think I told you she wants me to name one of our kids, Wolfgang. And I was like, no. And you're like, I might be on her side.

Michael Jamin:

Wolfie.

Phil Hudson:

That's what she wants to call him. She wants to name Wolfgang to call him Wolfie, which I think just whatever is Amadeus a story about an extraordinary person in an ordinary world or about Salie, an ordinary person in the extraordinary world of Amadeus.

Michael Jamin:

That's so interesting. It really is a story within a story, and you keep popping back out to Salieri in present time. Why did he go mad? Because, so yeah, it's a story within a story. There's really two stories. You're watching Solis descent into Madness because he killed this beautiful creature. Why did he do it? Yeah. So who's the hero of that?

Phil Hudson:

Well, it's called Amadeus.

Michael Jamin:

It is called Amadeus. Yeah,

Phil Hudson:

Right. So this is like Sicario. Did you ever see Sicario?

Michael Jamin:

I did,

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. So who is it about? Is it about Emily Blunt or is it about Benicio Del Toro and I think it wasn't until I got about three quarters of the way through, I was like, oh, we started on Emily Blunt, but that is not the protagonist.

Michael Jamin:

It's really just a framing device. The soli part of it. Who's got 90% of the screen time? Amadeus.

Phil Hudson:

Yep. Alright. Marla wants to know hat on a hat. New favorite saying, do you want to tell people what that is?

Michael Jamin:

We often say when you refer to a joke, sometimes you put a punchline on top of the punchline. And so we say it's a hat on a hat, if

Phil Hudson:

You like that come to the webinar where we can give out that book based on the free ebook based on Michael's notebook, insider Guide to Writing terminology.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. There's a bunch of terms that we give away. If you want to learn what they are, come to these webinars and we give 'em away.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, everybody gets that for just coming. So I had an eye hat, new favorite. If you base a character on someone in your life or someone in your life recognizes themselves in your writing, can they sue you?

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. I don't give legal advice, but I'll say you're protected. If you change their name, I would assume you can change their name, you could change their occupation, you could hide who they are. And if they were to come out, they're essentially calling themselves out. Why would they be dumb enough to do that? But I'm not worried about it, but I don't give legal advice. So yeah,

Phil Hudson:

I think that the person that will need to worry about that is the studio that buys it, and it becomes so wildly successful. That person has a financial incentive to sue you. I don't think it's necessarily something you need to worry about on a spec.

Michael Jamin:

I would hope not. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Ruth, w what criteria do you consider when taking a job? Early in your career, you worked for both Steve Levitan and Greg Daniels, but then you didn't work on Modern Family or The Office. Why

Michael Jamin:

Fired? Oh, fired. Fired. I wasn't offered jobs on Fired. Fired, offered fired. I wasn't offered jobs on those, but I mean, I also had a job. So when Modern Family came out that season, I remember actually meeting with Steve and my partner and I already had a job on, we were running a show called Glen Martin, so it wasn't even like we were trying to get that job. I don't remember what the office was doing, but I'm sure I also had, I've worked every year, I'm sure I also had a job at the time. So a lot of times, and by the way, I've missed out on opportunities, I've missed out on shows that were really big simply because I already had a job and when the show, it's not like this show was going to be a giant hit. You don't know this. Even a great show could be a flop.

Phil Hudson:

And Glen Martin, that was the first time show running right for you. And C, it

Michael Jamin:

Was the first time show running, and I was very happy to be running a show. I was like, oh, good. I've never done it before. So it was exciting and I'm glad I did it, but I would've made a lot more money had I been on Modern Family for sure.

Phil Hudson:

Awesome. Follow up question. When you get to a higher level of writer, say co-producer, do you still need to submit a script to the showrunner or is hiring based on your interview and past EV work you've done?

Michael Jamin:

Oh no. You almost always, you have to be read. You need a writing sample, and it has to be a current writing sample, and it has to be good. You're never done writing for free in Hollywood. You're always writing.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Derek Nyberg. What if the audience can't differentiate between fiction and reality and carries those powerful story themes into the voting booth? Does this explain why the worst of all possible characters are now elected officials walking around the Capitol building in Washington? Does this explain society's addiction to conflict?

Michael Jamin:

I don't think the two have anything to do with each other. Just to be clear, I think you're giving us way too much credit that the characters we create somehow become political figures. I

Phil Hudson:

Think that's like asking, was Shakespeare's success with Caesar, with Julius Caesar or with King Richard III or any of these other things he'd done, was that successful because he wrote them as story and then that led to other people being crazy? Or is it because he was writing about the reality of these people? Life imitates art imitates life, whereas it's

Michael Jamin:

Chicken cat. Yeah, it goes in both directions. But basically you take a show like the one Julie Louis Red come on talking about the political, sorry, beep Veep. Yes. Yeah, sorry. That show would not have been made if there already weren't people in politics acting like jackasses because you wouldn't believe you couldn't sell the show. You'd be like, I don't buy that. Any elected official could be that fricking stupid, but because it was already out there, you see it now, you can sell a show on it. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. That's great. Alright, and this is a comment, not a question, but I thought this was a good way to end this. Braves wants to know, I'm an aspiring screenwriter from India, and the knowledge you share on your Instagram helped me get my first internship. Always look forward to developing my skillset further. Thank you.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, good for you. Congratulations.

Phil Hudson:

And that's someone who's not only in your social media, but the webinars, and that's a reminder to everybody to come to the webinars. They're free. We do them very regularly, and there's always something to learn in those.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's it. This is a short one, but thank you everyone. Thanks for listening once again. This episode's brought to you by a paper orchestra, my debut collection of personal essays available. You can get on Amazon, you can get anywhere you want. Barnes and Nobles Apple

Phil Hudson:

Sign copies@michaeljamin.com.

Michael Jamin:

If you want, get it from me directly, I'll sign it for you. And that's it, Michael. Yeah, thank you so much everyone. Thank you. Thank you for your questions.

Phil Hudson:

Until next time,

Michael Jamin:

Keep reading,

Phil Hudson:

Keep reading. Keep reading

Michael Jamin:

My book. Read the book. Okay, everyone,

Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I love the Journey. And Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

Show Notes

Jonathan Collier on X: https://twitter.com/collierjonathan 

Jonathan Collier IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0171927/

Jonathan Collier on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Collier

A Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/book

A Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1

A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4

A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Jonathan Collier:

It was after season eight, and I thought they were trying to get me to go to King of the Hill, and I had whatever, I had the chance to stay at Simpson's. And I thought, well, there's no way it goes past season 10.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Or any show goes past season 10.

Jonathan Collier:

It just doesn't happen. And so I left. I thought, I kind of felt badly leaving, but I thought, what's much better? Do you want to show with some like in it

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.

All right, everyone, welcome back to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? My next guest is an old colleague of mine, old friend from my days on King of the Hill before I let him talk his name's John Coly or welcome to the show, but let me tell you what he's done. The Sky's credits are pretty incredible. So you sit back and relax. Lemme tell you what he's done. So he wrote on The Simpsons. Okay, we've heard of that show and I'm only giving some of the highlights, some of the highlights, some Scooby dos, which I did not know. King of the Hill Monk, the Good Family Bones, the Good Cop Law and Order. I mean, this guy has done well. He's done a lot. But thank you so much, man, for doing the show.

Jonathan Collier:

Oh, it's a pleasure, Michael. Thank you for having me.

Michael Jamin:

Let me tell you about who you are because I remember very clearly walking to my, on my way to my office on King of the Hill. Yours was, I would always walk past you and I would often stop and say hello. Or sometimes I would just sit and you always had a big smile. You're always so happy to greet me and have me there. And I never felt like I was getting in the way you Yeah, come on in. Come on. You're always very kind.

Jonathan Collier:

I am endlessly in search of distractions.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I do remember walking past you on days when you're on script and just looking miserable. I

Jonathan Collier:

Am. Thank you. Nope, that's exactly it. Well observed. I am never more miserable than I am alone in writing.

Michael Jamin:

But why is that? Do you feel?

Jonathan Collier:

Oh, it's a horrible thing to do. TV writing is one of the most fun, engaging, productive things you can do if you're with other people. And I love that part of it. And the small portion of the job that relies on you being alone entails, I should say, you being alone and actually writing something without people around is misery for me.

Michael Jamin:

But is it the comedy part? You also do drama now? Which one is harder?

Jonathan Collier:

Comedy is harder.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. But yeah, I would agree with that as well. But is it miserable to write drama as well?

Jonathan Collier:

I find the process of keeping stuff alive and interesting and propulsive is really, really hard.

Michael Jamin:

And how do know? You know when it's alive?

Jonathan Collier:

What, sorry?

Michael Jamin:

How do you know?

Jonathan Collier:

How do I know when it's right?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. How do you know?

Jonathan Collier:

Part of what makes it so miserable is you can always second guess yourself. And even more so when there's jokes involved.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Well, for jokes for sure. And what was that transition like for you? I'm amazed that anyone can do it.

Jonathan Collier:

Oh, I got very lucky. What happened was that King of the Hill was, we got canceled. You remember? It was time. The show got canceled. It was canceled two times.

Michael Jamin:

We left after the first time.

Jonathan Collier:

Yeah, left. So it got canceled. And I really realized it was for real when they started moving our furniture out of the office

Michael Jamin:

Because you were going to squat there.

Jonathan Collier:

I had every intention of squatting.

Michael Jamin:

You thought it was all Big bluff until they moved at the furniture.

Jonathan Collier:

And so that was happening. And I had done comedy for about 17 years at that point. And I didn't love doing for camera comedy. I liked doing animation and there were no real single camera comics, comedies on the air at the time, and I didn't quite know what to do, but I knew I stopped watching comedies. I kind of could feel the sweat on them and the work on them because I worked in so many comedy rooms. And I got really lucky, which is that Andy Breckman, who was running Monk at the time, who created the show, he used to have three guest writers come in every season. And he did that because he felt like he kept him on track. If you came in as a guest to the room in New York, it made him concentrate and work harder and make sure that in five days you would break a story.

Michael Jamin:

Why? Because people flew in, you mean?

Jonathan Collier:

Yeah, because the network would fly, the studio would fly you into New York and put you up and they would only keep you there for five days.

Michael Jamin:

Okay, that's interesting.

Jonathan Collier:

I got one of those. So I got one of those guest shots. And the other thing I got way I got lucky was

Michael Jamin:

Wait, but how did you get that guest shot?

Jonathan Collier:

I got that guest shot because this is embarrassing. My agent at the time who I didn't think was doing enough for me, got me a meeting with Andy Breckman, and I thought it was just one meeting with Andy Breckman, who's a great guy, and I love the show, but who knows if it's going to turn into anything. I fired my agent, moved on to another agent, and then Andy called me up and said, oh, we want you to do this episode a month.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jonathan Collier:

But there was no,

Michael Jamin:

But I've already fired my agent.

Jonathan Collier:

That was done. What happened was that, anyway, Andy used to only hire comedy writers to do guest episodes.

Michael Jamin:

Why?

Jonathan Collier:

Because his theory was that he could teach a comedy writer how to write a procedural. He could not teach a procedural writer how to be fun. So anyway, they flew into New York, I was in the room, we broke a story and I wrote it and it went well. The whole thing went well, and I got very lucky again because no one had ever really left the show or been added to it. This was the fourth season and one writer was leaving and Andy offered me the job. So I came in and went on staff the next season.

Michael Jamin:

How many seasons did you do there?

Jonathan Collier:

I did two more seasons and then the writer's strike of 2007 happened. And when that happened, I didn't know how long that would go on. Mike and the Good Family was starting up and they got what was called a strike waiver, and there were certain production companies and one was MRC, media Rights Capital, and they made a deal with the WGA, with the Writers Guild that they could do shows that were during the strike and it would not be strike breaking to work on those shows if they agreed to abide by the Wgas terms, the writer's terms. The WGA was using that as a tactic to try to force the studios to,

Michael Jamin:

And it's funny, they didn't really do that this last strike.

Jonathan Collier:

No, I don't think it really helped.

Michael Jamin:

You don't think it helped?

Jonathan Collier:

I don't know if it did or actually, no, I can't say if it did or not. I thought all I can say is I think this last strike was better run than the first one. I think a lot was learned from the first one. Anyway, I left Monk because I got a job right away rather than being strike.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Let me ask you that. When you're on Monk and you are with procedural writers who are not comedy writers, when they would pitch something that you and I would call a clam, or if you would pitch it in the room at the Simpson, the King of the Hill, someone would say, right? Was there a lot of that going on? Were you the guy who said, yeah, that's not really a joke?

Jonathan Collier:

Well, no. At Mon though, you had, first of all, it was comedy writers. It was a small staff and it was four people whose background was comedy, including Andy Breckman, and then one High Conrad, who was just a terrific mystery writer. And he had written something like 200 mystery books. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

Wow.

Jonathan Collier:

And the way he got on was that Andy met with him and took him out for lunch and said, look, I love your mystery books, and you have two choices. One is you come on staff or two was I'm just going to steal all your plots anyway.

Michael Jamin:

Oh wow.

Jonathan Collier:

Hi was on whatever came on staff, and he was on UNK for the whole run. And then he was on The Good Cop with Me Too. It was on, that was another Andy Breckman show.

Michael Jamin:

Right. It's so interesting. And to what did you think of that world? I mean, compared to comedy?

Jonathan Collier:

Well, it was a really kind of easy, delicate transition because it was a mystery show once again, written by comedy writers.

Michael Jamin:

Writers. It was light. It was fun.

Jonathan Collier:

Yeah. A procedural written by non-com writers would've been a tougher adjustment for me.

Michael Jamin:

But even the procedural explain to me and everyone else, how do you write a procedural?

Jonathan Collier:

I think there's many different ways to write a procedural. The way I write a procedural is what really happened comes first.

Michael Jamin:

What really happens comes first. What does that mean?

Jonathan Collier:

Okay. What you have to think of is what was our crime? What's the procedure about? What are we investigating?

Michael Jamin:

Okay, so give me an example.

Jonathan Collier:

It's not a medical procedural. This is a criminal procedural. I'm talking

Michael Jamin:

About, okay, so someone's dead,

Jonathan Collier:

Someone is dead. And then you have all sorts of questions you can ask that can form the basis for an episode. You can say, oh, is it an accident? Is it a suicide? Is it a murder? If it is a murder, or who did it? Why did they do it? Who could have done it? There any number of, is it an open book where the audience knows what happened? Is it a closed book where the audience doesn't know and learns along with our investigators?

Michael Jamin:

Did you basically do both?

Jonathan Collier:

Monk did both opened and closed book. And Monk also did a combination of who done, its who was the killer, why done, its, we know who the killer is, but why on earth would they kill someone? And that's how we can prove they did it. And how done its, it's an incredibly, it's a locked room mystery, for instance, where someone was killed inside the locked room, how did the killer get in there and do

Michael Jamin:

It? Interesting. Had

Jonathan Collier:

To figure out how the crime was done.

Michael Jamin:

And so these words are so funny. So as you were breaking the story, you'd break 'em in the room with all the writers, I assume, right? And then throw out ideas, and then someone would say, okay, but let's do this, make it a wide, let's make it a wide done at this week. Is that what it is?

Jonathan Collier:

Well, I think we'd look at the killing and say, what's a really, really ingenious killing? We could do?

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Jonathan Collier:

Say, okay, let's look at the motive. And then we'd say, last, you'd spend probably say you were breaking a story over the course. If it was just us, we probably spent seven to eight days breaking a story. We weren't having a guest writer in. And the first three or four days probably spent just figuring out how the crime was done and why really getting

Michael Jamin:

It seems very hard to me. This seems very hard to me.

Jonathan Collier:

For me, it was somewhat natural way to do it because it was really fun. And for some, I feel like I was using my comedy muscles, even my plotting muscles to figure out why you did it. And then you work backwards once, and this is just us. Other shows do it different ways. There's probably a million different ways to do it.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. But you start work backwards. So first you decide if it's going to be a who, what or why is that what it's,

Jonathan Collier:

First of all, first of all, you can't figure out who kills who and why, who killed who, who kills who. How do they do it, why do they do it, where do they do it? All those things. Then you figure out how do we solve it? And for a show like Monk, he'd also say, well, I have someone who has OCD. I have someone who was painfully shy as someone who was any number of traumas in his life. Also a comic character who happens to be the saddest person on television, and he has a tragedy to his life. And what's the world I can put him in to make him the most uncomfortable?

Michael Jamin:

Right? And that's how you begin. That's where you start. That's

Jonathan Collier:

Often where, that's often where the fun of it comes from. The comedy is from seeing him in the world where he's uncomfortable, because comedy is all about discomfort. The emotional story would often come from how he will relate to the world and what it would bring up in his own life. And then the procedural story is how you solve the crime.

Michael Jamin:

You

Jonathan Collier:

Go ahead. Sorry.

Michael Jamin:

No, no, go ahead.

Jonathan Collier:

The way one could look at it is for us on that show, the procedural story was almost with the armature. It's what you would call the plot, I guess. And the real story was the emotional story that was threaded through the plot.

Michael Jamin:

Right, of course.

Jonathan Collier:

And the two of them dovetail and one comment on the other, like a musical comedy, for instance, where songs are the twists, they provide the transition points in the story. You could say the emotional twists or the procedural twists would provide a transition point for each other.

Michael Jamin:

It still sounds very hard to me. Does it get easier?

Jonathan Collier:

Well, I think it probably sounds hard because I'm probably overcomplicating it.

Michael Jamin:

Well, not really, because you're solving, because see, and I are thinking of writing a procedural, and so we're watching some, and I'm like, I don't know. I don't think I know how to do this.

Jonathan Collier:

Oh, I'll help you with it.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, good. You're hired.

Jonathan Collier:

It is not that hard because it's actually easier I found than writing an episode of King of a Hill where someone buys a new hat and it changes their life and life. You have to make a whole story out of that.

Michael Jamin:

Right. But you still have to figure out, it's a mystery. You're solving a crime and you have to make it so it's smart. I mean, I've watched other ones where they throw in a clue just when you need it, oh good, I dug a new clue so I can figure out another scene.

Jonathan Collier:

And there's shows that do that. And there's shows that I like, if you don't get a show like Merab Town,

Michael Jamin:

Right? I haven't

Jonathan Collier:

Seen it. Okay. That's real lies procedural. And what you realize is it is not about solving the crime. I mean, it's all the crime, but it is really about the emotional drama that's happening. And the crime is, once again, is almost the backdrop

Michael Jamin:

For it. But to me, that's what makes it so that's why I want to get rid of the crime. Can we just focus on the relationship between the mother and the daughter that I get?

Jonathan Collier:

And the one I thought does comment on the other, and they're both of us family, and I felt like that show worked pretty well. It's very much not a show that I would know how to do.

Michael Jamin:

Well, and that takes me to law and your latest, but Okay, bones, and let's talk about what you're doing now. That's very different. Law and order.

Jonathan Collier:

Well, I'm not doing Law and Order now. I stopped after last season.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, you did? Okay. But that must be very procedural. I mean, procedural.

Jonathan Collier:

Procedural, very procedural, very different beast. I mean, it was a challenge to figure it out, but I think I'm much more comfortable in this space where there's more character involved.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, right. I would think

Jonathan Collier:

The part I like best is where I've been most comfortable and enjoyed the most is character driven procedurals.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Which is kind of like what USA does, right?

Jonathan Collier:

Well, back when they existed,

Michael Jamin:

Back when they were doing it.

Jonathan Collier:

So no, in other shows, there's been a lot of character-based procedurals on TV over the years, and that's what Bones was. Keone was a character-based procedural.

Michael Jamin:

And you were the showrunner that you were the executive producer?

Jonathan Collier:

I was the showrunner for a while, yes.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And that was the first time. Was that the first time you ran a show or no?

Jonathan Collier:

No. I've run another show on the CW called As If

Michael Jamin:

Before. Oh. But this is the, I still would imagine now that you're the boss of a procedural, I don't know. I need help. So it seems so hard to me. Wellm hung up on that.

Jonathan Collier:

I took over a show that was already working very

Michael Jamin:

Well.

Jonathan Collier:

Har Hansen, who created, it was a hundred yards away on the Fox lot in his office. I could always go running to him for help if I needed

Michael Jamin:

It. Right. And you had the same staff,

Jonathan Collier:

Sorry.

Michael Jamin:

And you had the staff, the previous same staff.

Jonathan Collier:

We had much of the same staff. And I had a co-Ho Runner, Michael Peterson, who was terrific. And I had Steven Nathan, who I took over the show from and only left because I was still a very close friend, and I could call him up whenever I needed to.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Jonathan Collier:

I think starting from scratch is always much harder, or walking into a situation not immediately comfortable is always much harder too.

Michael Jamin:

But now that you've, I see this as opening a lot of doors for you. Has it? Because now you have two genres under your belt.

Jonathan Collier:

Yes and no. It's always hard. I mean, you have to always be out there in whatever writing. And there's a limited number of jobs that a lot of people want to do, and the people who want to do those jobs tend to be, when you think of it, just in terms of being practical, it's a great profession when you're doing it. But it's one of the stupidest professions to try to do because your competition is really smart, really talented, really talented, really inspired, really wants to do it and works really hard. There's a lot of businesses that aren't like that

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to. What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book. Go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.

How do you know, were you in a lot of businesses?

Jonathan Collier:

I have a side business.

Michael Jamin:

What is your side business? Is it you rent folding shows for parties?

Jonathan Collier:

Well, no. I actually do multifamily housing.

Michael Jamin:

Wait. Oh, I knew about this. Right.

Jonathan Collier:

And believe me, my competition in multifamily housing will be damned if they want to spend 80 bucks to fix the toilet the right way.

Michael Jamin:

Now, do you build or you refurbish? What does that mean?

Jonathan Collier:

I do it with a partner who's also a writer, and we refurbish and build and rent.

Michael Jamin:

And Is it in LA or all over the country?

Jonathan Collier:

It's in Los Angeles.

Michael Jamin:

This is amazing. I remember, but I don't know. That's a whole different skillset. Who told you you were qualified to do that?

Jonathan Collier:

I think we always revert back to who we are,

Michael Jamin:

Which was, you were always a real estate mogul in the beginning.

Jonathan Collier:

Oh, I'm not a mogul by any means. We're mom and pop level of multifamily housing, but whatever. My family had small family businesses probably going back to the Middle Ages and they were butchers and bakers and ran a little in, did all those things. And that's where I immediately felt comfortable doing this.

Michael Jamin:

Really. Was it your idea to get into, how did that idea come up?

Jonathan Collier:

That came up during the 2007 strike also?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, everything comes up during the strike when you're out of work.

Jonathan Collier:

So you're out of work, you're walking around with a picket sign. Yeah. I was thinking, wait a second. I'm walking around with a picket sign with a lot of angry, middle-aged guys. We're all mad at their fathers and taking it out in the studio.

Michael Jamin:

Okay,

Jonathan Collier:

We are at the mercy. We're putting yourself in a position where we're walking around with a sign waiting for a giant multinational corporation to pay us a lot of money to do something that we frankly love to do. And I'm not really in control of my faith here.

Michael Jamin:

No, we're not.

Jonathan Collier:

And so that's where my partner and I decided to do it. And then fortunately for us, I know what happened. I talked about it and I started talking about it with one of my daughter's, babysitters.

Michael Jamin:

How many babysitters does she have?

Jonathan Collier:

We had a hundred babysitters, a hundred best babysitters in all of Los

Michael Jamin:

Angeles. She required a lot of babysitters. Okay,

Jonathan Collier:

Whatever. When we go out, we'd have whatever, five people we call, whatever. And I've all come over at once. This woman was actually getting, I talked to her about it because while she was babysitting for us, she was getting her real estate license.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. Wow.

Jonathan Collier:

And so she called me up and said, I have a building for you, and it is a really good deal, and Washington Mutual Bank is trying to unload it really fast. This is now 2008 or so, and the whole real estate market's falling apart.

Michael Jamin:

And how many units is this building approximately?

Jonathan Collier:

This building has five units.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. So it's small. We

Jonathan Collier:

Did not know what we were doing, but we went and looked at it. We bought it.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. We had to make a company first. You had to do all the legal stuff.

Jonathan Collier:

Yeah. We formed what's called an LLC. We talked to a lawyer who was a cousin of someone, and they told us what to do.

Michael Jamin:

Real estate. As it turned out, a brilliant idea. It was probably the best idea you've ever had in la.

Jonathan Collier:

It was a very, very lucky time to do it. And so people, I found once again, like I was saying earlier, my competition in real estate was not as talented or hardworking or smart as my competition in television writing, but they were a lot luckier. And just by the strange confluence of events where interest rates went down and the economy started to pick up eventually, we all just by good fortune, by luck, it worked out well. It worked. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

This is important because as you mentioned, nothing is guaranteed as a writer, nothing is guaranteed. And so to have something on the side is really helpful. Gives you some breathing. I highly

Jonathan Collier:

Recommend to people. I always tell whatever, when I talk to actors, I'm always thrilled when I hear that they're writing, even though they tend to be very good writers, and I don't like that. Or when they're doing something, when they're going to law school, when they're doing anything else, it's just nice to have a backup. It helps you sleep better at night.

Michael Jamin:

It does. Yeah, it really does. What's that?

Jonathan Collier:

You have your podcast.

Michael Jamin:

This is my empire, as you see. There you

Jonathan Collier:

Go.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. My media empire. Now, you wrote an episode of King of the Hill, because when I talk about King of the Hill, and this is 20 years ago, we were doing it. One episode people often bring up to me is Bobby is the Pygmalion episode, which you wrote.

Jonathan Collier:

Oh,

Michael Jamin:

People want to know about that. And we were just joining the show at that time. I'm

Jonathan Collier:

Glad to hear that. I still think about that episode actually, when I said, I hate writing alone. I don't hate all of writing alone. I love the last two or three days of writing alone, punching up. I feel like face with a blank page. And once I've kind of taken a sledgehammer and beaten that script into shape, actually turning it from serviceable to good is actually fun. That part of it. And I remember the last three days or so on that script were really fun.

Michael Jamin:

But how did it, I mean, that was a departure. I mean, everyone there said, this is the departure. This is the episode, which ended in a really dark place.

Jonathan Collier:

It was a gothic thriller.

Michael Jamin:

How did you sell it to Greg? To the staff? I dunno if he was running the show then How did you sell? It was there. It was a departure.

Jonathan Collier:

Greg was there, so Greg was still there. I don't know if he was officially running the show, but he was there. Greg had to approve everything. He was basically, and Greg, God bless him. Not only did he embrace the gothic nature of it, but he pushed it even more. And some of the really strong gothic elements like killing.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. The guy died at the end

Jonathan Collier:

Who loved. I think that may have been Greg's idea.

Michael Jamin:

Was there a moment though, when you go, wait a minute. Are you sure that this doesn't seem like the tone of the show? I mean, it's mostly Hank watering his lawn.

Jonathan Collier:

Oh, no. Once we were going to do it, I was off full speed ahead. I wanted to embrace it also. Now, there were other people there at the time. It was a big staff and whatever. Everyone had valid opinions or people who did not embrace it the way that they were entitled to that. But I think we pretty much got the episode we wanted up on the screen for

Michael Jamin:

Sure, man. I mean, that got some big, I remember watching the Color in the animation. We watched the color in the Room. That's a big, it was like, whoa.

Jonathan Collier:

Yeah. There were very large twists and turns. Yeah. It is always really fun to push a genre.

Michael Jamin:

It is

Jonathan Collier:

Carefully, closely observed family comedy and turned it into a large scale gothic drill.

Michael Jamin:

I had a conversation with Dave Krinsky. He ran the show at one point that, and the funny thing is, because people on social media, they're still watching King of the Hill. I haven't watched it since we were on it, because that's it. You leave it alone, you're onto the next show, and people really remember it. They remember it. They want to talk about it. And I'm like, I'm sorry. I don't really remember this episode. And Krinsky felt the same way, and he ran it. It's like, I don't really remember this. Do you remember everything? Oh, no. No. It's interesting that I think people have this expectation of the writers that we should still be living in it and we can't because we have to move on to whatever else we're writing.

Jonathan Collier:

Yeah. No, you only have so much room in your

Michael Jamin:

Head. Yeah.

Jonathan Collier:

I mean, part of it is we're too busy hanging on every grudge and slight and moment of shame in our lives to use in our comedy.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Well, okay, so I know you don't have too much time, but what do you writing? What do you want to write next? Do you want to write procedural comedy? What do you want to do? I

Jonathan Collier:

Really like the procedural space. I'm working on a procedural right now with a terrific writer who I was on bones with

Michael Jamin:

To sell as a pitch.

Jonathan Collier:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. I mean, and given your track record, I would assume it'd probably be easier for you to sell a procedural. I don't know. There, no,

Jonathan Collier:

I have no idea. We are in an odd market, so we'll see.

Michael Jamin:

What do you know about the market? I hear just from talking to other writers, I don't think anybody really know. What do you know about the market?

Jonathan Collier:

Oh, nothing. I know what I read in the trades. I know what I read in Deadline Hollywood.

Michael Jamin:

And by that you mean what's getting picked up?

Jonathan Collier:

Yeah, I know what everyone else knows. I have no information. I do know anecdotally, my friends at least have had trouble selling things.

Michael Jamin:

They're having trouble selling right now. That's what I'm telling them, because they don't know how much money they have. Yeah.

Jonathan Collier:

It is an inflection point in the business, and there's been periodic inflection points, whatever, where it's pointed in one direction or another, but no one really knows what they mean while you're in them.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. It's so, so smart about real estate. I'm still hung up on that, and I know this is not a podcast about that, but in a way it is. It's a podcast about having your fingers in many whatever it is, pots or something. Pies. What is it? I don't know what the expression is.

Jonathan Collier:

It is generally pies.

Michael Jamin:

Is it? What about a pot pie, like a chicken pot pie? It's generally pies, you said, man. So, okay. So that's kind of what you're taking out there is you're working on, and how often do you meet and do you work on it?

Jonathan Collier:

Oh, we meet every day really? More or less every day. I like to work for about three or four hours

Michael Jamin:

In person. You meet?

Jonathan Collier:

No, we work on Zoom. And I don't like Zoom rooms, and I've been in some of those, but I like working with just one writer on Zoom, if you know them Well, it's fun. I mean, I found that in a regular room, and I'm sure people have told you this on your podcast and otherwise that, especially when you're No anything character based, any show, if it is not character based, the fun of it really is. And a lot of the creativity comes from what's not going on in the room. It comes from walking to lunch. It comes from Brow Cup coffee. It comes from killing time doing something else on the lot or your office. And that's when the ideas kind of come out of you. And you don't get that on Zoom.

Michael Jamin:

No, you don't. I wonder. Yeah. So was never Back. The rooms never got back. The last show I was on, it was still Zoom. Have you gone back in person?

Jonathan Collier:

No.

Michael Jamin:

No. Isn't that weird?

Jonathan Collier:

Really? I mean, I helped out, I did some punch up on a movie, and that was in person and on some punch up on an HBO series. Really? That didn't go, but that was whatever, a mini room. And those were both in person, but they were small and they were limited duration. So like a full functioning show in person. I have not done since the

Michael Jamin:

Pandemic. I wonder. Yeah, I wonder. They're just trying to save money. I don't think they're about saving lives. I think it's about saving money.

Jonathan Collier:

I think they're saving money. I think that sometimes one thing they found during Zoom is you get to writers in different cities. And so if you have writers in different cities to even the playing field, whatever, everyone's on Zoom rather than someone being in New York and someone being in Seattle and someone being in Los Angeles. But I certainly enjoy and benefit from the physical presence of other writers. It's hard enough to do it much easier and more fun when you're with other people.

Michael Jamin:

For me,

Jonathan Collier:

I have worked with writers who love being alone doing it. They have an entirely different experience and approach to it.

Michael Jamin:

Well, a lot of it's about the commute to work. You're probably central.

Jonathan Collier:

I'm fairly central, but I know people who actually, they don't want to be in a room. I've worked with wonderful writers who would much prefer to be alone and knock it out.

Michael Jamin:

Do you like going, working on set? Do you like being on set?

Jonathan Collier:

Yeah, I do. I mean, I think it depends. Every set has its own character politics, and it's not particularly fun being on set if you have a difficult lead or whatever, if there's something going on there or if there's tension between the stars or if there's, there's any number of ways you can have tension on the set. By and large, I've been very lucky. They've been good sets, and it's been fun. And also, it's the last step and whatever. One thing you realize on the set is when you spend significant time on the set, you realize how many people are really offering the show that you may have ridden,

Michael Jamin:

That you may have, I'm sorry, what?

Jonathan Collier:

Your name is on a script, but everyone on that set, hair and makeup, your whatever, your director, everyone has your camera operators. They're all helping create that show.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Jonathan Collier:

Writers in their own way, and they're adding elements to it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And I know I have to ask this because we have so many fans of The Simpsons, but what was that whole experience like for you? Because you were there in the early days?

Jonathan Collier:

Fairly early days. It was really, first of all, it was a huge break in my career that was good for me. I didn't have my first child until very late in my stay there. And that changed everything where suddenly, oh wait, sitting here with our comedy writers till 1130 at night might not be as energizing and fun when you have a baby to get home

Michael Jamin:

To

Jonathan Collier:

That you want to see. So the hours were fairly brutal back then, but I still wouldn't trade it for anything.

Michael Jamin:

I can't imagine, though, that the hours were like that now, right?

Jonathan Collier:

No, they're fairly from what friends, were still there. And the hours are very sane now. And they're generally home for dinner.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, that's so interesting is that they've made a career that show's been on 30, what, 35 years or something?

Jonathan Collier:

Oh, yeah. And they can still turn out some terrific episodes,

Michael Jamin:

But it's a career. Your career, okay. You might as well be working at Exxon. That's your career. You get a gold watch and then that's you're done.

Jonathan Collier:

When I left, it was after season eight, and I thought they were trying to get me to go to King of the Hill, and I had whatever, I had the chance to stay at Simpson's. And I thought, well, there's no way it goes past season 10

Michael Jamin:

Or any show goes past season 10.

Jonathan Collier:

It just doesn't happen. And so I left. I thought I kind of felt badly leaving, but I thought, what much better do you want to show with some life in it?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But then again, it's also these people that's, they have job security, which is unheard of in Hollywood.

Jonathan Collier:

It is absolutely unheard of. And no, actually, that's one of the great gigs to have right now.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure. I know you got to go. We talked about this earlier, but I want to thank you in person as we want to hang up and then briefly thank you, and then I'll let you leave.

Jonathan Collier:

Oh, thank you for having me. This was really fun.

Michael Jamin:

This is, honestly, it was so interesting catching up and just hearing your perspective on all this. And yeah, you're going to be our, if the show ever goes, you're our first hire to make a procedural. I don't know how to make, I don't know how to do any of this. Oh, thank you. Yeah.

Jonathan Collier:

Are we on air now or are we recording

Michael Jamin:

Still? Not yet. I'll sign off and I'll stop recording. Okay. Okay, everyone, thank you so much. That was John Collier. Great guy. Okay,

Jonathan Collier:

Everyone. He promised me a job on air. You heard it.

Michael Jamin:

I did say that. Yeah, but there's always got to go. That's a bigger, so it's an empty promise. So, all right, everyone, thank you so much. Go. Yeah. A paper orchestra dropped this week, my new collection of True stories@michaeljamin.com. Go check it out. Alright, everyone, thanks so much. Until next week. Keep writing.

Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support this show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved The Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

Show Notes

Paula Marshall on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thepaulamarshall/?hl=en

Paula Marshall IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005191/

Paula Marshall on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Marshall

A Paper Orchestra on Website - https://michaeljamin.com/book

A Paper Orchestra on Audible - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1

A Paper Orchestra on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4

A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Paula Marshall:

But a lot of parents, they go to jobs and then they come home or they don't work at all, and then it's just mom 100% and they're probably exhausted and happy. Some of my friends, I feel like they're like, I'm so glad. Finally I get to whatever. And either they're retiring and they get to go travel and like, no, I'm an actor. I'm looking for a gig, whatever. I don't think actors ever truly retire. I think we don't. I don't.

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations and writing, art and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.

Welcome everyone. My next guest is actress Paula Marshall. She has been, I worked with her years ago on a show called Out of Practice, I think it was like 2005. But Paul, before I let you get a word in edgewise, I got to tell everyone, your credits are crazy long, so your intro may take a long time. So I'm going to just give you some of the highlights to remind you of your incredible body of work here. Really these are just the highlights. She works a ton. So well, let's see. I guess we could start with One Life To Live. That might've been your first one. Grapevine Life goes on. Wonder Years Seinfeld. I heard of that one. Perry Mason diagnosis. Murder Wild Oats. I'm skipping here. Nash Bridges. You did a couple Chicago Suns Spin. City Cupid Snoops Sports Night, the Weber Show. It doesn't end.

Just shoot Me, which I worked on. I didn't even know you were on that. Maybe I wasn't there. Hitting Hills and Out of Practice, which we did together. Veronica Mars, nip Tuck, shark ca Fornication. You did a bunch of Gary Unmarried House friends with Benefits, the exes CSI, the Mentalist, two and a Half Men Murder in the First Major Crimes. What else have we got here? Goer Gibbons, I dunno what that is. You have to tell me what that is. And then Modern Family Euphoria. You did a bunch of them. Walker. Paula, I'm exhausted and I'm going to steal your joke here. You can because I'm going to say you're Paula Marshall, but you may know me as Carla Gina. That's what used to tell me Carla

Paula Marshall:

And I know Carla,

Michael Jamin:

But know

Paula Marshall:

She's like the younger version of me. Slightly shorter,

Michael Jamin:

Bigger, bigger. Boop. But you have done so much. I'm going to jump, I'm going to jump into the hardest part. I'm wondering if this is the hardest part for you is being a guest star on a show because you have to jump in with the cast, you have to know the rules and everything. Is that harder?

Paula Marshall:

Yes, a hundred percent. It's harder when I guest star on any shows, if I haven't seen the show, I watch three or four on YouTube just so I know who's who and the vibe and the energy. When I guest star on Modern Family I their last season and some could say I canceled the show by being there. I've been called a show killer

Michael Jamin:

Before. I remember You don't let Right.

Paula Marshall:

I still have not let that go. I like to say I've just worked on so many different shows at its peak and then it died anyway. It's hard because they're all in a flow and depending on the other actors, how cool they are to kind of throw the ball at you.

Michael Jamin:

But do you have to identify who's the alpha dog on set? Is that what your plan is? It's

Paula Marshall:

Pretty clear right away. Really? Yeah. I mean besides whoever's first on the call sheet, I remember one of the producers of Snoop's, David Kelly's first big bomb. That was me.

Michael Jamin:

It was a sure thing what happened?

Paula Marshall:

You know what? I'm not sure. Well, when it was supposed to be a comedy quickly turned into a drama, it was not great. But as one of the producers of Snoop said, you don't fuck with the first person on the call sheet. You don't fuck with him. And so you identify that person and depending, it's funny because I've worked with so many great people and so many assholes too. Like David Deney. Damn, is he cool? He's so nice. When I worked on fornication with him, he set a tone for just the set, the crew, the actors, this freedom just to try things. And I remember during my, it was like the first day naked throwing up,

Michael Jamin:

Wait, were you nervous? Why were you throwing up?

Paula Marshall:

Hello? Of course. But I

Michael Jamin:

Remember you're never nervous, Paul, let me tell you who you were. I'm totally nervous. No, you're the most self-assured person probably I've ever worked with. You're very confident.

Paula Marshall:

Thank you. I'm acting

Michael Jamin:

Acting.

Paula Marshall:

But California occasion, it was my first day onset naked, fake fucking. And I remember standing there, it was yesterday, and either tweaking you and touching you up. And I say to everyone, what's amazing, what I'll do for $2,900 when a strike is pending? It was the writer's strike way back in the day. And I remember getting this part on fornication and I'm like to all the girls in the audition room, when we used to have auditions in rooms with other people, I looked around, I'm like, we're not going to really have to be naked. We're not those type of actresses. And they're like, no, no, no. And I'm like standing there. Yeah, yeah. I was naked.

Michael Jamin:

Was that your first time in a show being naked? I mean

Paula Marshall:

Topless

Michael Jamin:

Show

Paula Marshall:

On a show?

Michael Jamin:

Yes. Because you were in a model, I'm sure as a model, you're doing wardrobe changes all the time.

Paula Marshall:

I used to model. I was naked a few things back in the day.

Michael Jamin:

So were you really nervous about it? I mean, I imagine you would be, but

Paula Marshall:

Standing there naked is one thing. You just kind of have to dive in the pool, in the cold, cold pool and let it go because you got to put on the confident jacket, I guess I obviously wore a lot around you, but I mean it's more uncomfortable, the fake sex scenes, it's more technical and awkward. It's just but nervous. I dunno. Yeah, you're excited. But I'm also excited when I walk on stage on a sitcom before, if I'm not already in the set, when they start rolling, I'm backstage. How's my hair? Shit, how am I doing? Okay? I get hyped up until you do it once and people laugh and you're like, oh,

Michael Jamin:

Okay. Are you worried about going up on your lines at all? Is that at all you're thinking about?

Paula Marshall:

Yes, especially now. Oh shit, my memory. It's just that prevagen, I'm going to look it up later, but yeah, you do. But if you in a sitcom situation, we run it, we rehearse it all week. Still

Michael Jamin:

The lines are changing all week. That's all I

Paula Marshall:

Know. But they're changing all week. But then you run it and you drill it on TV shows like euphoria or whatever. Yeah, you run it. But then again, they don't really change the lines at all. But yeah, you were a little bit, but then you got a great script supervisor that you're like, I'm up. And then they say it and then you go back and you do it. But yeah, always, I'm always really nervous until maybe the second take

Michael Jamin:

Of any, the hardest thing it seems to me is just like, okay, you're naked and you have to forget that there's all these people there. You have

Paula Marshall:

To

Michael Jamin:

Completely, it's almost like you're crazy to have to be able to forget that,

Paula Marshall:

Michael, when you paid $2,900.

That's right. I was shocked. That's all you get for being naked. Yeah, you do. You are nervous. But I don't know. I was 40 then, so I looked pretty good naked, although I only had four days notice. Back then we didn't have ozempic, so I was like, okay, I can't, no salt, no bread. And I remember in that shot that the camera guy, they decided in the moment, Hey, can you walk over to David? And then bent over, he's on the bed and then kiss him. I'm like, well, that depends. What's your lens there? You got there? And I'm like, how wide is your lens? And he looked at me and I'm like, I'm a photographer. I like taking pictures. So I know. And I'm like, so I'm going to bend over with my white ass and I had four days notice on this and my ass is just going to be in the pretty much. And you're like, okay, I could do it. But you hope for body makeup. I don't know. Don't you think I had any, I should have demanded body

Michael Jamin:

Makeup. And this was probably even before there were, what do they call them now? Intimacy

Paula Marshall:

Coordinators?

Michael Jamin:

Yes. Right.

Paula Marshall:

I mean, here's the thing. I guess it helps when you're not a loud mouth person like me. And even then it's hard to go, Hey dude, keep your tongue in your mouth. You don't want it in your mouth. Sometimes you're like, damn. He's a great kisser. Jason Bateman, I enjoyed the tongue in my mouth. So

Michael Jamin:

It kind of depends

Paula Marshall:

On who's sticking in the tongue. But the intimacy coordinator, I think it's just so people know what's going to kind of happen and get it. But California case, no, we didn't have that. This movie I was naked on with Peter Weller called The New Age. No, I remember in the middle of the scene, I'm on the bed and he's looking down at me and during one take he decides to suck on my nipple. Shocking. I turned bright red, which is what I do when I get nervous. And I'm like, dude, what are you doing? He goes, I dunno, I just thought it'd be fun. I'm like, okay. And I don't think they used it, but if there was an intimacy coordinator back then, I probably would've known.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. So it's

Paula Marshall:

Good I guess. But it's corny and you feel silly.

Michael Jamin:

Oh my God, I'm glad you mentioned the photography thing. That was one of my memories from working together and out of practice. This was before people had camera phones and cell phones and you carried a camera everywhere. And I remember thinking, you're the star of a sitcom. You're the star. I mean, you're an artist doing her craft, and yet it's still not enough that you wanted to work on something. You wanted to do something else as well.

Paula Marshall:

Maybe it's my parents growing up, they always had these really cool black and white pictures of them. And I used to look at them and go, wow, that was your life then. And it was hard to even imagine when they were so young. And so it's like photos are life to me. And I guess I don't want to forget the moments of my life that are important. And so I always would bring a camera with me on set, on location more than sitcom stages aren't as conducive to really cool shots. But yeah, I like capturing life.

Michael Jamin:

And you're still doing it on 35

Paula Marshall:

Millimeter? I still do it, although I did give in and I have a digital now because it's easier. It's easier. Develop film.

Michael Jamin:

Many. You took my headshot from me and for many years I way too long. I used that as my headshot.

Paula Marshall:

Yeah, it was good. I remember

Michael Jamin:

It was great. And I wore Danny's shirt, you go, yeah, put this on. You look terrible. Whatever I was wearing, still

Paula Marshall:

Do that. People still come over my friends and I'm like, you need a headshot. Put Danny's shirt on. He has some nice shirts.

Michael Jamin:

It's so funny.

Paula Marshall:

Yeah, I do. I still like taking pictures.

Michael Jamin:

I got to share another memory I had from out of practice, which I cherish this one. So it was right before it was show night for some reason. I don't know why. I had to run up pages to the cast. And maybe you were in the green room or you were somewhere upstairs. I don't know what the hell dressing. I don't know what was going on. I knock on the door and all of you we're standing in a circle holding hands. And Henry goes, Michael, you're just in inside. Come on in. And then I go in time for what? And then he tapped. This blew my, I love this memory. And you guys were just like, I don't know what you would call it, but you were invoking a good show to be supportive of each other and to be brave and true. And I was like, I can't believe I felt so honored that I was included in, I was like, are you serious,

Paula Marshall:

Henry? I actually forgot that memory and thank you for reminding me of it. Henry's just, he's something special.

Michael Jamin:

He is.

Paula Marshall:

I know there's rumors. Oh, who's the nicest guy in Hollywood? Henry Winkler. It's because it is, is I could text him right now and he would literally text me. Within eight minutes he will text me back. Oh, Paula, it's been so, he's just a dear. And so he is, again, back to the, when you go on set and who creates that energy? Although Chris Gorham, I think was the first on the call sheet, not Henry Winkler, but Henry was our dad. I mean, he was such a pro and yeah, he just created this lovely energy there.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Oh wow. So that's not common then for other shows that you've worked on. People don't do that. That's not a theater thing. It seems like a theater thing

Paula Marshall:

You would think. I think, I don't know, maybe it was a happy days thing.

Michael Jamin:

Why don't you start it on your next show? Why don't you start doing

Paula Marshall:

It? I think I might. I'm going to make it now.

Michael Jamin:

I thought it was so interesting. I was like, wow. But it's getting back to that first point, even the first, the first person on the call sheet technically is the head cheese. But they might not be the most difficult by far at all. I mean, you don't know who's the boss. That's true, right?

Paula Marshall:

I mean sometimes the and character is an asshole. I mean, I think mostly people when they don't really want to be there, they kind of rebel. I've always wanted to be on a sitcom. I

Michael Jamin:

Remember. Did that change? Oh, go ahead, please.

Paula Marshall:

I just remember, I believe my first sitcom was Seinfeld. I may have done a guest spot on some other one that maybe never aired or I can't remember. Or maybe I just think it's cooler to say my first sitcom was Seinfeld. I'm not sure. But that show, I don't know. There's a magic. But they didn't do any of that either. But they kind of really invited me in and I dunno, I'm just thinking,

Michael Jamin:

Do you prefer to do sitcoms, multi-camera sitcoms? Yes. Yes. Because the audience.

Paula Marshall:

Because the audience, because it's a high, I've never gotten anywhere else in my life. Not that I need to be high, but damn. When you go out and you make people laugh with a look or a line or a physical movement, I mean it's magic. And working with the actor, knowing more like theater, which by the way, I've never done

Michael Jamin:

Well, why don't you do theater then?

Paula Marshall:

I don't know. I don't know. I'll call my agent another thing I'll write down.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, do that.

Paula Marshall:

But probably only if it's a comedy. But it's that magic that you don't have to go and do another take and then they turn around and then you got a close up again. I mean, it's boring. Like our television, there's no magic in it

Michael Jamin:

Ever.

Paula Marshall:

Except on euphoria. I have to say there's magic there.

Michael Jamin:

Why do you say that?

Paula Marshall:

Because the writing directing the story level of, I mean, when Marsha is my character, when Marsha actually had a couple things to say. I remember I called or I spoke with Sam Levinson and I was like, dude, it's me, right? You wrote an eight page monologue almost for Marsha to say. And he goes, yeah, I can't wait to see it. And I'm like, oh my God. I was so nervous. I studied for three weeks. There was no rewrites. And then it's me and Jacob all Lorde on set. And we get there and there's no rush, there's no limitation. There's just like, what do you want to do? And he's like, I kind of feel like you're doing this and then you're doing the cookies and a lot of movement. But we did it until it felt good, and then we knew it, and there was a magic there. No one's laughing at me. But there's something special about that show. I mean, I've heard rumors like, oh, and on set. And I'm like, ah, not for me. Not for me at all. Not for you. No, it's amazing.

Michael Jamin:

What do you do though? When you're on set and you have an idea how you want to play or speech, how you want to deliver speech, and your scene partner is just on doing something completely fucking different. How do you handle that?

Paula Marshall:

If you know, don't have a say, meaning you're a guest, darn. You do what they tell you to. How high do you want me to jump? That's what you do. But if you're working together and you're equal parties, you probably have run it before. But I would say if they're not doing something that I want, then I use it and I am frustrated in the scene, or I just use whatever they're giving me because that's all I got. And I try to put that into my character.

Michael Jamin:

How much training have you had though? That's very actor speak.

Paula Marshall:

It really did sound a little actory, and I

Michael Jamin:

Apologize for that. No, it's good. I like it.

Paula Marshall:

I mean, I don't know. I lived in New York City and I took acting class with this guy named Tony Aon and Jennifer Aniston was in my class and Oh wow.

Just a bunch of young people, but not all that much. Not all that much. I think the comedy thing, I didn't even know I was funny with Seinfeld, the guest stars aren't usually funny in sitcoms. The lead, the main characters, the stars of the show are funny guest stars just kind of throw the ball and you know what I mean? But something happened after I was on Seinfeld and then I read for, I guess it was Wild Oats, which was with Paul Rudd and Jan Marie hpp. And Tim Conlin. It was a sitcom on Fox. It was the same year that another show called Friends was coming out. And I remember them. Someone was interviewing us saying, oh, there's another show that NBC is doing with a group of friends. It's kind of like yours. And we're all friends. What's that cut to?

And ours was canceled after one season, but I think the first time I was like, oh shit, I can do this. I know how to deliver a joke. But I never learned that again. It just happened one year in pilot season just kind of happened. And my agents were like, oh, Paul is funny. Okay. And then one time I remember I read for a pilot, after you do so many comedies, then people go, well, she's a comedic actress, she can't do drama. And then you're like, the fuck. Of course I could do drama. I remember one time during this callback, no original, just the first audition. And I had heard the casting director doesn't think or only thinks you're funny, doesn't think you're as good. Dramatic. Wow.

Michael Jamin:

Obviously if you could do comedy, you could do drama.

Paula Marshall:

No, you would think it's the other way around. It never works. It is really hard to do

Michael Jamin:

Comedy.

Paula Marshall:

But literally, I was like, well, I'm so angry that she thinks I can't. Finally, they couldn't find this girl, the character for the pilot. And then they finally, okay, Paula, we'll see her. So I get in there, and it was Davis Guggenheim was the director. I love Davis. After I read, I think it was three scenes. And during the last scene, I broke down and I was in tears over something and I look up with, you couldn't have placed the tear better. And I look up and I ended the scene and Davis goes, my god, Paula Marshall, you are one fine actress. And I do this. I look at the casting drifter and I go, you see, I'm not just funny. And I grabbed my bag and I walked out and I go, well, I just fucked myself for any future director again. There was something that came over me and I was like, I need you to know that I am not just one thing or the other. And then Davis probably three weeks later, texts me, I've been fighting every day for you. And I'm like, what are you talking about when you get these weird texts from people? I'm like, did I get the part? I got the part and they didn't want to see me.

Michael Jamin:

It's so interesting. I mean, obviously you're a working actor, you work a lot. You're successful, and yet you still feel like you're placed in this box and you have to prove yourself and get out of it.

Paula Marshall:

But there's something I really love about, there's part of me that I want to read, and I want everyone to look at that tape and go, fuck, I wish we could hire her. I wish there weren't the limitations and we didn't have to pick Carla at you now or whatever. I wish we could pick Paula. I want them to go, fuck man. She was really good. I want to stick in their brain. I always would cancel auditions if I wasn't ready for it. If I really knew I wasn't going to kill it, I wouldn't go, or I won't put myself on tape. I don't have enough time to prepare for it because that's the last thing they see of you.

Michael Jamin:

I

Paula Marshall:

Want it to be the best thing they see of me. So I only want to leave them with that because they're not going to remember that other stuff.

Michael Jamin:

That's a good point though. Are you doing a lot of self tape now? Is there anything in person?

Paula Marshall:

I have not had any auditions in person yet. Wow. Her actress ever Carradine. I think she's had her third one, and she always posts about it. She's so cute. And I think she booked one. No, I have a room now in my house. It's the tape room. And I've got a nice beauty light and I've got the tripod again. It's kind of easy for me because I have photography stuff.

Michael Jamin:

But who are you acting again or does Danny help you out?

Paula Marshall:

Well, Danny will sometimes read with me. My daughter would read with me. And sometimes when I'm all by myself, I read with myself. I will have a tape of the other voice, which is, or sometimes I leave space and then I put the audio in later. I mean, it's crazy the stuff that happens during Covid. We've got very creative over here.

Michael Jamin:

But in some ways though, because this sometimes a casting director is like, yeah, yeah, there couldn't be more wooden. And so in some ways it's got to be easier for you, right?

Paula Marshall:

Yes and no. Yes, because I get to pick the take I want,

Michael Jamin:

Right?

Paula Marshall:

Two, because two, I didn't even say one a b, I don't get nervous, so there's no nerves to hold me back or Oh man, I should have done it. Or I mess up. I just do another take. But then there's also, there's something about going in and being vulnerable in front of all those people and showing them what you can do. And especially in a comedy, I, it was like a zoom callback for a comedy. And I live in the hills and maybe it was the wifi or that slight timing was off just enough or the reader wasn't funny and I'm trying to connect with this dot. It was hard. There was no magic in it and you couldn't feel the other person. And so I think in a way, it's good in a way. It's really not good. So I'm willing to do whatever to get anything because I pay for college.

Michael Jamin:

But also, there's also the fact the to drive across town, I mean, that's got to get old, right? Driving everywhere.

Paula Marshall:

But when you're an actor, everything stops. You get a script, everything stops. You're not making dinner, you're not going out, you're not watching that movie or the show. You drop everything and then you focus on it. And hopefully, thankfully, because of the strike and the new negotiations that they got for us, I think we don't have to do a self tape over the weekend. We need to have enough time to actually prepare for it, which is amazing. Most of the time. Gary unmarried, I think I got the audition at eight o'clock in the morning. It was to meet producers at 11 o'clock the next day. And you're like, ah, okay, here I go. It's really hard to put all that energy and to them something great. And I never understand why you're casting people or producers. Don't give us more time because we want to give you something great. We don't want to go in there and read. I don't. I want to perform for you. And it's hard to do when I don't have enough time to do it. I also have a life, so I have other things, but you kind of do. You really drop it. You drop everything for an audition.

Michael Jamin:

It's interesting though. I want to get touched on something you said. You said it's hard to be vulnerable on camera, but then you said comedy, and do you feel like it's harder to be vulnerable? Because when I think of vulnerable, I think drama, not comedy.

Paula Marshall:

Yes. But there's nothing funnier. I remember my husband in many situations will say, I'll be upset or crying and I'll say something really funny, but humor comes out of the reality, like your honest to goodness, open soul, like your heart. The funniest stuff I think comes out of me when I'm in a vulnerable position, if I'm angry, if I'm sad when I'm just feeling whatever. So I don't know. I think in many sitcoms I've cried. And how do you

Michael Jamin:

Get past that though? How do you get past that vulnerability thing? I mean, are you a hundred percent past it or is there any reservations?

Paula Marshall:

Ask that again. Sorry.

Michael Jamin:

Very clear saying, well, when you're vulnerable on camera or trying to be, can you go, I don't know. Is there a limit to your vulnerability, do you think on camera or are you willing to go there all the time? As much, as far as you want?

Paula Marshall:

I guess so most of the time it depends on how much tears you have. And I usually, if the writing is good, and that's the big if this thing that I ended up booking with Davis Guggenheim, it was with John Corbett, and I had to cry and it was maybe like a steady cam up the stairs and going, and I break down and I crumbled to my knees, and I swear to God, I did it. Maybe 17 takes. And then we come around and turn around on him and I end up crying again. And John, after we, they yelled cut, he goes, Paula, what are you doing? Why are you crying again? I go, I don't know. The words are making me cry. I'm just tapped in doing it. They wipe it away. But you got to be careful because I'm vain and you got to look like you're not crying, and I'm really crying.

So I get red and my eyes get bloodshot. You look different and the snot and you got to fix the whatever, makeup. But no, but when it's great, when the writing is great, of course, usually you don't have to do it. 17 takes, it was just had a lot to do with the steady cam and whatever. But usually you do it in three takes and you nail it and it's good, and they're like, wow, that was great. Let's move on. So you don't really have to in a movie, if you nail it, you nail it and they move on.

Michael Jamin:

What do you do though when you're in it and you feel like you're slipping out of it?

Paula Marshall:

Okay, so that when I drink this, so

I have at least one of those before every tape night, I've always drink a Coke. If I can't, the writing isn't talking to me. If I can't relate to it, I do that substitute thing. If I have to cry, and this is really not making me cry, the subject and the words I substitute for something else that makes me cry. I'm a freakishly emotional person. I cry a lot. I'm very sensitive. You wouldn't really think that because kind of like Danny calls me bottom line, Marshall, and I'm very tough and whatever and no nonsense. And I say it like it is, and I will always tell you if you look fat in that dress, I like to be honest, but I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

But is there a moment where you feel like you're okay? You're on, you're giving a speech, you're in a scene, and then you're like, oh, I'm acting now.

Paula Marshall:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, every once in a while, I mean, I'll finish the scene. I don't want to stop myself. They might like it and for whatever reason, but I'll always say, can I have another one? Can I please have another one? Or Oh my gosh, I really like the second take. Just can you make a note of that, that the second take was much better. They know it's obvious when you see someone telling the truth, it's obvious which one is better, but you can't just tell the truth once and then move on because you don't know. Maybe there was a sound issue on that take. No. So it's tricky. Every once in a while you think you have it. The crappy thing is when they come around to you or they start on you and then you finally figure something out. I remember Bette Midler, we were doing the scene and they were on us first.

It was a movie, I guess Danny and I did the scene together and it was bet opposite on a table. And they go to her, they turn the camera on her, and then she goes, oh, I just figured it out. We're like, no, the opposite. We did her first. Forgive me. We did her first and then they came on us. And then she goes, oh, I just figured out the scene. Can I do it again? And Carl Reiner's like, no, we got to move. No, we're out of here. So sometimes it takes a while to figure it all out, and she just thought she didn't nail it. It's Bette Midler. She nails every take all the time

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.

Do you have these conversations with them? Do you have conversations with actors with more experience and I don't know, are you still trying to learn from them?

Paula Marshall:

I just pay attention to what they're doing. I don't think I pick their brains like that, but I just watch them and I watch and I see

Michael Jamin:

What are you looking for?

Paula Marshall:

Well, sometimes technically how they do it. I remember my first movie, Hellraiser three, I learned a lot about continuity,

Which is something they don't really teach in acting class. If I'm going to play my drink up and sip it, I have to do that every single time. If I'm going to eat in the scene, I got to do it every single time, and I have to figure that out. And you have to really, if you're really going to eat, you got to really eat. Not teeny little bites, make your choice. But I learned things from different people. I remember Robert Duvall, I played his daughter in a movie and he would act and he kept going until his body knew it was over. And I remember the director had yelled cut at one point and he got really mad. He goes, I wasn't done, but he had finished talking. And he goes, I'm still acting here. It's like, I'm still walking here. But it was like, I'm still acting.

I'm still doing, there's still so much more there. I observe and I see how they deal with issues and problems in their focus. ISHKA Harte guest star on that show of hers, and we auditioned a lot in the beginning. We came up at the same time and just everything was so serious to her. She really so passionate about her show and she threw away nothing. It was really kind of impressive after a hundred seasons now that she cared so much because some people after four Seasons, they're like ready to go. They're like, I got a movie down, I'm ready to go. But there's certain people like Maka who from day one till again, I think it's 25 seasons or 24 or something crazy. I remember when I worked with her and I hadn't seen her in 15 years or something, I just am like, God, how rich is she? And so instead I was like, tacky. I'm not going to say that. So again, I walk up to her and it was emotional that we hadn't seen each other in so long. I hugged her and I said, how big is your house? She goes, I can't complain.

Michael Jamin:

I'm like,

Paula Marshall:

But she's very passionate and so many actors are, and then there's some who are not and who are ready to go

Michael Jamin:

And who are they? Not names, but why are they there? Are they just rock stars who became actors? You don't know. It just falls into a job like that.

Paula Marshall:

There was one person and he just seemed really angry all the time. I don't think he was just a happy person. If you don't like doing this, I'm not sure why you're doing it. I don't know. There's just something inside you. I mean, this is the greatest thing ever to be paid to do what you love. And again, when my daughter said she wanted to be an actress, an actor, sorry, I was so happy. I was like, that's where I found joy in my life. I grew up in Rockville, Maryland, and I didn't know anybody, and I just watched the Mary Tyler Moore show, and I went, yep, that's what I want.

How do I do that? I had no idea, none. And to find joy there. So when a person is coming to set and they're angry, it could be, they don't like the words actors are very particular about. If your dialogue is not great, it's really hard. It's so much easier when you have great dialogue and the scene makes sense and the relationships you buy them. It's so easy to do it. It's effortless and it's so real and it's so honest. And then when you've got this other stuff and you have to say the name of the person to remember that it's very cookie cutter network television, which you would think at this point would look at streaming and go, yeah, there's always something right over there because the quality is just beyond Well,

Michael Jamin:

How did you figure it out then? Okay, you're in Maryland. How did you figure out you stopped in New York first. What was that about?

Paula Marshall:

Did I moved to New York? I modeled in Georgetown as a local model there, doing little ads for Montgomery reward. And I didn't really want to go to college. My parents didn't make me go to college. I think I had two grand in my pocket from doing things here and there. I started doing commercials locally. And this woman by the name of Jay Sumner, who was the booker at this modeling agency called Panache, she said, we were at Champions. It was a bar called Champions. And though how I was there drinking at the bar, I don't know, I think I was 18. She said, Paula, you're so much more interesting in person than you are in a piece of paper, meaning I'm pretty, I'm good enough on paper, but you're so much more interesting in real life. And she goes, I think you should be an actress.

And I'm like, okay, really? And I'm like, well, I always used to watch Mary Taylor Moore and all of that, but I'm from Maryland, how am I going to do? And she goes, I know somebody. I know someone in New York named Dian Littlefield, who's a manager, and I can set you up with a meeting. I'm like, what? So I ended up moving to New York City. Modeling was my waitressing job. I got a lot of money. It didn't take a lot of time. It was really easy. I love photography. So there was that connection that I wasn't just sitting there like an idiot with bathing suits or lingerie or junior wardrobe or whatever. So that was kind of my waitressing job to allow me to pay for rent and acting classes. And then I was like, you know what? I think I really like it. It's true. Just a piece of paper. And it's funny, I love taking pictures. I love stopping life, but there was just, I guess more to me than just the piece of paper. So I guess that's kind of how it happened.

Michael Jamin:

How did LA happen then?

Paula Marshall:

So I would audition test for a lot of things. I would fly to LA for different pilot projects. I would read in New York, and then most of the things were shooting in la, not New York at all back then. So I would fly to LA and I think it was just one of my agents said, look, Paul, if you really want to do this, you got to live in la,

Michael Jamin:

Right?

Paula Marshall:

I was like, ah, okay. So I moved to LA and yeah, and I was young and 20, I think I was 25 when I moved here, kind of old to kind of start, but I looked really young. And when you read for enough things and enough people are interested, the head of my agency said to me after a pilot, I, or I tested for something and I didn't get it. And he told me back when we didn't have computers, we had to go pick up our scripts and there would be a box outside the script, their office, after hours, he would look through and go, these are my scripts. In the middle envelopes, it says Paula Marshall on it. Anyway, I was kind of sad and I'm like, I don't know. I'm not booking anything. And he goes, but you're testing a lot. You're very close. And I'm like, what does it take? What am I lacking? What am I missing that I'm not booking the thing? He goes, I believe in you and you need to keep doing this. And then I did. I slowly would start booking things.

Michael Jamin:

What were you lacking? Do you know?

Paula Marshall:

Maybe it was the confidence, maybe I was really nervous. I remember one time, I think it was during the Flash, it was a pilot called The Flash with John Wesley ship, and Amanda pays Amanda Paynes. Anyway, ended up booking it. But I remember in the audition room, I think it was at NBC or I don't know, one of the big three, the scene, I put my hand on my knee and I was shaking so much from being nervous that I was like, oh, stop doing that. I don't want them to know. I'm nervous because they want everyone to be fearless and confident.

And I get that because it takes a lot to go stand in front of a bunch of people and say stuff over and over, or stand there and be naked and do it over and over. There's got to be part of you that's kind of cocky and confident, and not that you think that you could do that over and over with someone else's words. I mean, it's kind of crazy that I do this, but I don't know what tipped me over the scale. I never gave up. And I kept doing it and trying to figure it out and asking and asking the casting directors, and they always say nice things. They never say, well, you messed this thing. No, it's just there's a magic. If I don't book something now, I don't take it personally. Someone else just had a little bit more magic that day, and they tapped into the character and the writer saw that person that they wrote down and spent so many hours writing that Blonde Girl or Carla Gino just got it better than I did. Okay. I

Michael Jamin:

Know. To me, one of the hardest parts of acting, aside from the acting part is the fact that you really don't, don't have agency over your, you have to wait often. You have to wait. So what do you do in that time?

Paula Marshall:

Well, you find hobbies. I learned very early on to save money. You live under your means. So even if you get a gig and you're the lead in a show, you're making a lot of money per week. And like me, most of the shows, they did not go more than a season. So you have to take that and live under your means, and you can't spend money and buy fancy things. I invested my money in my house, I think maybe three or four houses now. I try to invest my money and I fill my days with other things.

Michael Jamin:

Do you stress about it at all or no?

Paula Marshall:

Yeah. Yeah. I think in the beginning, early on I was very busy all the time. There wasn't a lull. And when you do have a job on, if you're a series regular on a show, you love your weekends, you love your time off. If you're working crazy hours sitcom's, not crazy hours, you know that those are

Michael Jamin:

Great for writers.

Paula Marshall:

I mean, yes, that's true, but if you're a director, Jimmy Burroughs would be like, I got a tea time at three 30. We got to get out of here. It's a dream. And maybe that's why I love the sitcom so much, because you got to to act and have a real life. When I had my daughter, I remember going, how would I be a mom and work on a single camera show? I would never see the kid. So when I was pregnant or when I read for Out of practice, I had just had my daughter a week before I went in to test for the show over at CBS. There was a script on my doorstep when I brought her up on the baby thing. And I'm like, I'm a mom and oh, right, I'm an actress and I'm 20 pounds overweight. And oh, I thought I was going to push the, I'm not going to work for a year button.

That was the plan. Then I saw the script and I read it and I'm like, oh man, it's a sitcom. I'm not going to work very many hours. I'm going to work three weeks on one week off. I'm like, maybe I'll just do it. Maybe I'll just read for it and we'll see. And I really liked it. I really liked the character. And then when I got it, I was like, oh shit, I don't even have a nanny. How do I do this? So Danny went with me tape night. He was my nanny. I remember them going home because the baby, they were cool. Once we got picked up, they allowed me to have a little trailer outside for my nanny, Mariella and Maya, and I was breastfeeding at the time. She was just born. And it allowed me to do that. And I remember Henry, Henry Winkler still was like, how's Maya? And it was just a great thing. I had my baby. You couldn't ask for a better job for a mom. I was living my dream and I was having a baby when I was 40 years old.

Sitcom is the greatest thing in the world, and I'm still trying to get back on one. There's just not that many of them now. It's really sad. Multicam, I've written like three of them. Speaking of writing. Yeah, go on. The writer. So I remember, I think it was when the pilot that I did with John Corbett, when I cried 17 takes in a row, when that didn't get picked up, I remember I was dropping off my daughter at elementary school and Dave Grohl, yes, that Dave Grohl sees me. And I had just found out that the pilot wasn't picked up. It's called Murder in the First, no, sorry, different thing called something different. That was another show that I did. But anyway, so Dave Girl's like Paula Marshall, what's up? You look sad. And I'm like, oh, another pilot wasn't picked up. It just sucks.

And he goes, Paula, when either his studio or something, they didn't like the music or whatever, and he goes, you know what? I did put his arm around me. We're walking down that hallway. And he goes, I just did it myself. I got this set up and I just did it myself. And he goes, you should do it yourself. Why don't you write something? And I'm like, yeah, why don't I? And I'm like, well, because one, I'm not a writer, but he goes, who cares? So because of Dave Grohl, that opened the door to getting ideas out, writing something for me. One thing actually, I mean it went kind of far an idea went very far that I ended up producing with Paul Riser and Betsy Thomas wrote it. This was a little bit before, but it's an outlet for me. I'm still not great at Final Draft. I'm still like, oh, how do I get the thing and the thing and the page? I can't even figure it out half the time. So I've written a few sitcoms, mostly from my point of view, because I want the job, because I want

Michael Jamin:

To. So you wrote a single camera sitcom and then you showed it to Paul, and then

Paula Marshall:

What happened? The Paul and Betsy one, I met Paul's, I believe his name was Alex, but I can't really remember. I met this guy at a wedding and he was like, oh, you're really funny and blah, blah, blah. I'm a big fan. I'm like, oh, that's nice. Thank you very much. And he goes, do you have any ideas? Do you write? And I go, no, I don't write. I go, I have this idea for a show. And he goes, really? Why don't you come pitch it to me? And my partner? I'm like, great. Okay. He goes, Hollywood. I'm like, who's your partner? He goes, who's your partner? And he goes, Paul Riser. I'm like, what? Okay. So I literally got his number and I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to go meet with Paul Riser. I go meet with Paul Riser. I give him my pitch.

He really liked it. And he goes, I like it. I think let's do it. Let's work together. I was like, you couldn't have given me anything that would've made me happier than the fact that Paul Riser liked an idea of mine. It's almost like when I made Diane Keaton laugh in an audition. I literally called my agents and I was like, I'm good. I could die now. So the Paul Riser thing, it was just my idea. I had a lot of say. So I got to produce, I got to make a lot of decisions. It was probably one of the

Michael Jamin:

Greatest. So you shot it then.

Paula Marshall:

So we shot it and it wasn't picked up, but

Michael Jamin:

You sold it to a studio.

Paula Marshall:

All of them wanted it. This is great. Everyone but Fox, wow.

Michael Jamin:

Wanted it. That's amazing.

Paula Marshall:

It was crazy. But you have Paul Riser, I matter your stuff, but when you have someone like a Paul Riser or someone who is respected in Hollywood and has produced before, of course people are going to give them a shot,

Michael Jamin:

But not necessarily. I mean, they must've really liked it. So you wrote it and you started it?

Paula Marshall:

I started in it. It was my idea, but I did not write it. Later on, I ended up writing things and pitching, and a lot of people like my stuff, but I really mean should go out a little more aggressively than I do. But I have one right now that we're kind of sending around me and my buddy Jeff Melnick, that he really likes this story. And it was, I won't tell you what it is,

Michael Jamin:

But that's not nothing. I mean, that's a big achievement, honestly,

Paula Marshall:

For me. Yeah, I don't write. I still am a terrible speller. I have a reading disorder. I've got this thing where reading is hard for me because the font and the text is very contrasty, so I'm a terrible speller. Thank God for spell check, because otherwise,

Michael Jamin:

Well, so you're working on another piece for yourself as well then? Yes. I'm impressed.

Paula Marshall:

I have about three scripts that I've worked on here and there, and I remember I thought, oh, well, this is when I'm going to kill it. I'm going to knock these things out. I'm What happened with Covid? We were so scared. And my daughter was home going to now, whatever, ninth grade or 10th grade. And so it became, that whole time became about helping her find joy. I always said, every day, I'm going to help her get through this. And I really pushed all my stuff back. Any good mom does let everyone eat before you eat. Maybe the way I grew up. So I took care of her and all of that stuff before I focused on me. And then she went to college this year, and you would still think I'm like, Paula, I got to finish these things, which I did. I'm back. I'm back doing it, and I like it. I really like it. There's something about the story, but no one ever taught me to write. So I'm writing from my experience, the years of reading sitcom scripts, I

Michael Jamin:

Have

Paula Marshall:

'em in my closet. I have almost every single script, especially the ones that I loved, and I go back to it and I refer back. I'm like, how did they do this? Even setting it up, I'll go back and sneak a peek.

Michael Jamin:

That's really smart. Was it hard for you when she left the house?

Paula Marshall:

Jesus. Oh, here's the thing.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, make up touching up

Paula Marshall:

Makeup break

Michael Jamin:

Last looks.

Paula Marshall:

I mean, because she's not in Boston,

She's down the road. It feels like if something bad happened, I could be there. I don't have to get on a plane and only one direct flight. There's one school in Connecticut that she got into, and it was a great school, and there's one direct flight at 6:00 AM I'm like, this is never going to happen. And she chose, I was like, whatever you want, wherever you want to go to college, it's your decision. I mean, I'll tell you what I, but it's all up to you. And she chose and it was something that's not too far away. And it's great. I get to see her and it's worked out. It's a win.

Michael Jamin:

What about the emptiness of the house? I'm going to make you cry now. That's what I feel like. The house is so empty. You

Paula Marshall:

Know what? And I think though, Michael, I think if she was in anywhere else, I think if I couldn't get to her, and that's a weird thing as a mom, it's about protecting your child. But yeah, I could cry when I think about certain things. Thanks, Michael. It's about protecting them. And I think that the distance, because we are close, she's still in. She's still here. I don't like cooking dinner as much. I'm sorry, Danny, because I don't really have to. The big change is just her presence, her energy, the thought about, well, what's Maya doing? Or what does she got to do? Now it's not, and one of my scripts is, well, I'll tell you one of my scripts is about what happens when your kid goes away to college? What happens to a woman?

Michael Jamin:

And go ahead. Can you tell me a little bit?

Paula Marshall:

So it started a while ago, just like my fear of who am I? What do I do? I mean, yes, I'm an actress, but then I pulled from that and I'm like, well, if I'm not an actress and I don't have a job and everything has been bombed, there's so many places to go. Okay, you've just got to, it's like reinventing yourself, which almost every mom that I know who doesn't have a job, it's very true. I was so fortunate that I could have my cake, my baby, and also work. But a lot of parents, they go to jobs and then they come home and or they don't work at all. And then it's just mom, 100%. And they're probably exhausted and happy. Some of my friends, I feel like they're like, oh, I'm so glad. Finally I get to whatever. And either they're retiring and they get to go travel, and I'm like, no, I'm an actor. I'm looking for a gig, whatever. I don't think actors ever truly retire. I think we don't do.

Michael Jamin:

I guess it depends on how much you love it and how much it must come on. It's got a wear on you. The downs have to be, I don't know.

Paula Marshall:

Well, I think probably just like a writer,

You have to be able to fill your day when you're not going to be working and making money again. It's why it's smart to save your money and invest it and not buy that fricking mansion. If you got that check. Remember one time I went to the bank and I was depositing, it was before they had the picture phone deposits, a really big check. And it was the biggest check I think I've ever gotten. The first time I got that kind of money on a show and the teller, and again, I looked very young, the teller who didn't look much older than me and took the check,

And he looked at the check and he looked at me and he goes, what do you do? What do you do? And I laughed. I go, I'm an actor. I go, but trust me, this thing, this isn't forever. I know it's not forever. So I have to live my life. It's not forever. Because my goal is I never want to lose my house. I always want to be able to afford things. You hear these horror stories about these, you think you got it, and then it shows canceled, and then you can't do that. I've always been kind of smart when it comes to money, but it's hard. It's really hard. We

Michael Jamin:

Spoke a little about this because your daughter's interested in acting and you were, this is before we started taping, and what's your advice for her?

Paula Marshall:

My advice is find a way to tap in and find the truth in anything. And if you can't, then again, you substitute. If it's not connecting, you got to figure out a way to connect to it. It's about being truthful In imaginary circumstances, it's really hard to walk into a room and pretend the thing and crying. You just really have to practice going there. I remember one time, and even in my life, life situations, I will take note of them. One time I was in San Francisco drunker than I've ever been before for whatever reason. And I remember the hotel I was, I think it was during Nash Bridges, and I was like, oh, I'm so wasted. I want to remember what I look like when I'm this wasted. So I, my, I guess I did have a cell phone then. So I took my cell phone or my camera, no cell phone, and I recorded myself being drunk.

And it's like that one actor, he would always, Michael, he's an English guy, Michael, I forget his name. He would be like, you can't overdo the acting, but you're trying not to be drunk. Yes. To try to make sure that the words are coming out. And so that's what I did. I literally was like, this is me talking at my, it was the craziest thing. So in life, take advantage again, back to the advice to my daughter. Live these experiences and remember them. And if you cry, if you're sensitive and emotional, fucking use it. There's plenty of people who can't cry at the drop of a hat. I can cry. You give me something to people always know Paula can cry in a scene and even if I don't connect to it again, I substitute and I find a way. I'm an emotional person and the thing I think I have trouble doing is the angry part.

I'm not great at being super angry. I don't think I play a lot of those roles like I was doing, I've worked with Steven Weber on his new Chicago Med. I was going to say new show, it is like year nine, but I play his ex-wife. I think it's airing tomorrow as a matter of fact. And there was a scene where I had to come in and I'm yelling at him and I'm like, God, this is so not me. I'm not a yeller. I don't yell even in the middle of a fight. If I'm fighting, I try to get it out and then I cry because I get frustrated because I can't say, I'm not one of those bitchy women wives who are like, I'm just not. Anyway, back to the advice from my daughter, you take life's experiences and you put a little marker on them and you remember them.

So when you need them, and I didn't even think I was going to have any children because I started so late and as the actress in me, I just never thought, I dunno, mom and my mom material. I don't know. I was like, you know what? I could really learn a lot as an actress by tapping into that love. I remember you'd see my friends who had kids way, way early and I'm like, God, they love these things. What did that feel like? I never knew what that was and so I took that experience and without it, I don't think I would truly ever be able to play a mom as genuinely as I am. Love because man, I love my kid and I didn't think I'd be like a great mom. I am the best mom I am and I love her and I love being a mom and all of it. So I tell my daughter to practice. Practice, learn your lines very easy and don't go in if you're not prepared. That's kind of a big one. You're not really,

Michael Jamin:

Just because you said mom was there, that fear the first time you decided to play mom, they say once you play mom like, oh, now she's a mom.

Paula Marshall:

Well, it's just an age thing, so that was never a thing for me. I'm going to play whatever I look like for sure. So I don't care. I don't care about that at all.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. Paula, this has been such a great conversation, so thank you so much. You're

Paula Marshall:

Welcome. I had so much fun talking with you.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I mean, I just love talking the craft with people like you. You're a pro and you're just, I don't know, so much wisdom to share, so thank you so much. You're

Paula Marshall:

Welcome.

Michael Jamin:

Thank you.

Paula Marshall:

I'm enjoying your Instagram posts.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, we'll talk about that, but alright, well thank you. That's it. That's you're released, but don't go anywhere now we are going to talk some more here. Alright everyone, thank you so much. What a great conversation. Paul. Should they follow you somewhere? Did they do anything or just watch you on something? What do they want 'em to do?

Paula Marshall:

Depends on when you get this.

Michael Jamin:

Venmo you the most. What do you want? Venmo? Me

Paula Marshall:

Cash is great. I mean, my Instagram is the Paula Marshall. I guess I'm not really great at all that stuff.

Michael Jamin:

Are you supposed to be though? Do your agents tell you?

Paula Marshall:

No, agents don't. But if you have so many followers, then it used to be this thing called a TV Q, which is your TV quotes, how many people know who you are? And that's just, social media has kind of taken that over, really. So people, I think people care how many followers you have. I do not

Michael Jamin:

Again, but Tbq is not a thing anymore, you're saying?

Paula Marshall:

I don't think it is. Wow. No. I mean maybe they call it something else, but I know an actress friend of mine was early on in the Instagram thing. She's like, yeah, I got to join Instagram. Yuck. I'm like, yeah, the thing. She's like, I was told I have to have it and you got to pitch. I'm not that self-promoting and I'll say things that are inappropriate and crude and get kicked off of Twitter for it, but whatever. That's who I'm,

Michael Jamin:

Thank you again. Really, it was such an honor to have you on. Alright everyone, more conversations coming. Thank you so much for tuning in. Until next week, keep creating. You're an actor. Tell your friends about this. You're other actor friends. Alright, everyone, thanks so much.

Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamon talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most. Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

Show Notes

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

A Paper Orchestra on Audible - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1

A Paper Orchestra on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4

A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestra

A Paper Orchestra on Website - https://michaeljamin.com/book

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is because you sold 'em the rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving them any creative input at all when the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book now on with the show. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to What the Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about the podcast where we explore art, creativity, and writing. Oh, it's a big announcement today, Phil. Phil's back, big day

Phil Hudson:

Back. Happy to be back. Thank you for having me.

Michael Jamin:

Big day. We're finally building up. This has been a long project. Phil book, my book, A Paper Orchestra Drops or dropped if you're hearing this. It's available, it's, it's already

Phil Hudson:

Dropped. It's available yesterday, so go get it now.

Michael Jamin:

It's called a paper orchestra and it's a collection of personal essays. If you're a fan of David Sedaris, I think of it as David Sedaris meets Neil Simon. And this has been my passion project for years. I've been working on this and I'm very excited to put it out in the world. As you can get it on print, you can get it on audiobook, you can get it as ebook, however you consume your books, and you can get it everywhere. You can go get it on michael jamin.com. You can find it on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble or Audible for the audio audiobook. Anywhere, anywhere you get Apple. If you want to get the ebook, it's everywhere, Phil. It's everywhere.

Phil Hudson:

It's like you got a real publishing deal except you didn't.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I'm doing it myself,

Phil Hudson:

And we'll go into that. I want people to understand you chose to self-publish this at this point, but that's not how we started. And we've talked a bit about that when we changed the podcast title and we talked a bit about it. We're talking about your live shows, but I think this is like, let's celebrate Michael Jamin a little bit today because you're always talking to people to build the mountain, to climb. You are now at the top of that mountain, and I imagine you're looking over and saying, oh crap, look, that other peak there I've got to get to now.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I already am. Yeah, for sure. Lot of it. And I hope this inspires a lot of you. There's so many people who are like, I want to sell my screenplay, or I want to help me break in, help me, help me. But there's so much that you can do. So unempowering disempowering, you're basically hoping that someone else is going to make your career, buy my script, make my movie. But there's so much that you can do on your own, and you may think it's more work because you're doing it yourself, but it's actually less work because now you don't have to count on someone else to do it for you. You can stop begging, you can stop worrying about all the rejection because when you're selling your scripts or trying to, you're going to get rejected by 99 out of a hundred people. But if you just build it yourself, there's so much you can do. The year we live in, it's so empowering. Everyone has a phone and you can shoot on your phone, you can make a movie. Everyone has a miniature movie studio. There's so much we all can do and on our own. And so I'm just going to share a little bit about the journey that I've been on when I started writing this book.

So basically this started well over four years ago, maybe five years ago. I told my wife that I was just at a point in my life where I felt a little disheartened by, a little bored by what I was writing in television because when I write for tv, and I'm very grateful to have a job and a career, but I'm always writing what someone is paying me to write. And I'm very rarely writing what I want to write. I'm paying what someone pays me to write or what I can sell, but that's not how I started writing when I was in college and in high school. I just wanted to write what I wanted to write. And so I went for a walk with my wife one day and I was like, I have a really bad idea. I'm thinking of writing a collection of personal essays, which is what David Seras writes. And I love his writing. I've read everything. He's written multiple times. You show him your card, you got a card back there, don't you? Oh yeah. Yeah. He actually, I sent him a piece of fan letter, a fan mail three years ago. But I've read him so much. I knew that he would respond. He talks about, I knew he would respond. It just took him three years to respond, but it was very kind of him.

So yeah, so I started writing. I wanted to write this project. I wanted to write what I want to write. I wanted to tell stories the way I wanted to tell them without network notes, without a partner, without. I just wanted to see what I can do on my own without having someone telling me what to do or breathing down my back or saying, no, it should be this or that. What can I do? And so I told that to Cynthia and she said, that's a great idea. And I said, but you don't understand even if I sell it, I'm not going to make a lot of money from it and it's going to take me years and years to do. She goes, you got to do it anyway, because if you do, you will find yourself in the process. And I was like, okay.

And at the time, I was really in a bad place. I was just very upset about stuff mentally. I was in a bad place. I was like, okay, I'll start writing. And that's what I did. I remember I had listened to a lot of David C's audio books, but I had never read him. So I was like, I better read him. And then I bought a bunch of books and I read the first one. I remember I was lying in bed. I was reading the first book and I'm about halfway through and I'm thinking, where's this guy going? What's he doing here? Where's he going with this? And then I got to the end of the piece and the ending was such a wonderful ending. I was like, oh my God. And I almost threw the book across the room. I was, I was so mad.

I was like, this is going to be so much harder than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be easy or natural, not easy, but just considering I'm a writer, I didn't think it would be that difficult. So then I just started studying him and I got all his books and I read them multiple times over and over again, and the more I read, I was just trying to look for patterns and trying to learn from him. And that kind of just began, that was the beginning of this journey just to study, study what I wanted to do.

Phil Hudson:

You're constantly telling people to study their craft, and you talk about story and story structure. You have a course on that. Most of your content you put on social media is dedicated to helping people understand that your webinars are often about resetting people's expectations about what a writing career looks like and helping them focus on what really matters. And the undertone that I've witnessed over the last two, two and a half years of this process with you of at least starting the podcast and helping with social media and that stuff, it's all based under the reality or the realization that creativity is worth doing just to be creative and that there's value in that process beyond monetary pay or paychecks.

Michael Jamin:

Well, yeah, for sure. When I first started writing these stories, the first two, first several were not very good. I was writing in David Sari's voice because I didn't know how else to do it. The ironic thing, as a TV writer, I'm always writing in someone else's voice. I'm writing in the character's voice or the voice of the show, but this is my voice, and this is the first time I actually had to do that. And so because I'm a good mimic and because I had just read so much of him, I was kind of writing, I was kind of the writer like him, and I thought the first two stories were good. And then I set it down for a couple of weeks and I read it with fresh eyes and I thought, oh, this is terrible. It felt like a cheap knockoff. It felt like me pretending I was him and I hated it.

I threw all those stories out and then I had to figure out, okay, what's my voice? And that was a long discovery. But the reason why, this is a long way of saying this, those first several stories I wrote, I don't know, maybe six or seven stories, and it just take months and months. At one point, I reach out to my agent. I'm at a very big prestigious Hollywood agency. They do. They represent me in film and tv, and I reached out to my agent. I told him what I was working on. I said, Hey, do we have a book agency, a book department? He said, of course we do. What do I know? I tell him what I was doing. I said, can you hook me up with one of your agents? He goes, sure. So I reach out to their agents. This guy's in New York now, he doesn't have to take, just so people know, I told 'em what I was doing. He doesn't have to take me on as a client, but he has to take the call.

I'm banging them. They got to take the call. He doesn't have to bring me on to represent him in books though. And so I told him what I was doing. He goes, oh, that sounds interesting. Send me what you have. I go, well, I only have a handful of stories, but I'll send you what I have. So I emailed them to him. I never heard back. I didn't hear back for probably six months at this point. And I'm still writing more stories. It doesn't matter, whatever. I'm thinking maybe he read it, he didn't read it, he doesn't like it, whatever. I'm not going to stop writing them though. And I just kept on writing all these stories. Finally, six months later, he reaches out to me. He goes, I'm so sorry it took me so long to read these. I love them. Let's get on the phone and talk about them.

I was like, sure. He goes, and he was like, when we spoke, he said, he said, do you have any more? Because he only read whatever. I sent him maybe six stories, and I go, as a matter of fact, yeah, I'm almost done with the collection. Give me another couple of weeks and I'll send you the entire collection. So at that point, but again, I'm writing it because I want to write it. I want to do this. I'm not thinking about how much money I'm going to make. I'm thinking about the process of writing and figuring out how to learn. I had to relearn how to write because I'm a TV writer who now is writing books. There's a little difference. There's some difference to it.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. A couple things here. I love the narrative, and I don't want to interrupt the narrative, but I think there's some topics that are coming up here. Is it okay if we just dive into those for a second? Yeah, please. Okay. You talked about David Sedaris and you were reading this and you're like, where is this going? And then it ended in this way. That was almost upsetting because it was so beautiful and so well done. What I'm hearing you say is something you talk about regularly on the podcast and in your social media content, which is the way you unpack your story is the job of being a writer. And that's almost effectively what I'm hearing is that's your craft and your tone and your style. You still have to understand story structure and you understand these things. But the unpacking, would you say that that's an example of what you're talking about when you say how you unpack something matters?

Michael Jamin:

Yes, and the thing is, I've really tried to study him. I think he's the gold standard. I think he's a master, a beautiful writer. There's certain things I was able to learn and certain things I was not able to unpack. And so I learned a lot from him for sure. But some things still remain a mystery to me from how he writes. I can't see through it, and I'm good at seeing through some stuff. So take that for what it's worth. I do remember thinking, I had long conversations with my wife when we were about this. I didn't want people to think that the book was written by a sitcom writer. I wanted it to be funny and dramatic, but I didn't want people to say, oh, this guy's, I wanted it to be a little smarter than just a sitcom, I guess. And so I was very self-conscious about that.

And we had long conversations of Is this art? How do I make art? What is art? How do I do this? So it feels like art and what I really came, it was a really eye-opening moment for me, and it came from much of what I learned about how to do this. I learned not from writers, David is probably the only writer who I really studied a lot for this book, but I learned a lot from watching interviews with musicians, ironically, about how they approached their art. And I found that to be more helpful than listening to other writers. And one of the really interesting things, I was like, well, we know there's a market for what David Sedera says. We know people like what he does, so why am I trying to reinvent things? Why not just kind of do what he's doing? And there's two reasons why not.

One, I'm not him. I can't be him ever. And that's almost the tragedy of the whole thing is I want to write, this guy can write, but I never ever will. So you're going to have to let go of that, which is almost tragic. But the other thing is, it's my responsibility not to, as an artist, if you want to make art, then add, you have to bring new to the equation. You have to bring new, and that actually, I picked up, I believe I picked up from an interview with watching Pharrell talk about music.

Phil Hudson:

That's awesome.

Michael Jamin:

Which is basically he's saying, listen, your job is to bring something new to the conversation, is to put the youness into it. Whatever is you, that's what you have to put into it. And that was very reassuring to hear it from him. I was like, oh, okay, now I can lean into me.

Phil Hudson:

This resonates with me. And what I wrote down here is that you can look outside of your space for inspiration. And I think this again ties to the fact that creativity is self, it's for the self. Rick Rubin, the producer, you're familiar with him. I think most people are at this point. I was just watched a clip of him in an interview and he said, I have never made music for a fan. When you do, it's bad when I make it for myself or when I do it because it's something that I like that resonates with the listener. And would you say that's what you're doing here is you're writing this for you in your tone because it's the best pure expression of your art?

Michael Jamin:

Well, yes, yes and no. Some of it, it's very truthful. It's very painfully truthful. It's very intimate. I go there. I think that's what makes it interesting. I think that's my job as a writer. It's my obligation as a writer is to figure out what the truth is and figure out how to tell it. But I also keep the audience in mind, and maybe that's just because of my background as a team writer.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, you're an entertainer to a degree because that's what you do, is you want people to tune in for 23, 25 minutes per week, have a good time, forget their worries, and then leave having gotten something from what you've done. Well,

Michael Jamin:

It's also,

Phil Hudson:

But I don't know, that negates what Rick Rubin's talking about because it's like when you read, when you're putting out here, do you feel like you are getting the same value out of it that you would hope a reader would, or are you hoping the reader gets more value out of it than what you're getting out of it?

Michael Jamin:

Well, I don't know. I mean, first I keep them in mind. I picture my reader with a remote control in their hand. That's just become from me, a TV writer. So how do I make sure this story is compelling so that they want to turn the page? But I do keep them in mind in terms of how do I make this story not about me, but about all of us. And I think that's important because this has the danger of becoming very self-indulgent. These are true stories from my life, but I tell them in a way with art, so that you really feel like you're reading a character in a book. I am a character. The character of Michael is in this story, so it's not like, and then this happened, then this happened. I'm not telling you how I broke into Hollywood, although there are stories about that. I'm really telling you about the stories. These are stories of rejection. These are stories of triumph. There are stories there meant to be, the details are mine, but the stories are all of ours. So that's how I feel I'm telling them is like, okay, so that you can totally relate to this so you can feel, okay, I had something very similar and me explaining it to you helps you understand it, hopefully.

Phil Hudson:

And not to jump ahead, I saw you last year for my birthday, do a performance. My wife and I came out and there's a story, was it, is that what it's called?

Michael Jamin:

The Goul? Yeah, the

Phil Hudson:

Goul. Still a year later, 13 months later, still thinking about that goul because as a new father and then hearing your perspective as a father with children leaving the home, yeah, there's a lot of beauty and regret in that story that is paralleling the decisions I'm making now with my children who are young and what I want my life and my relationship to be like with them. So yeah, I think you absolutely check that box. You said, I've heard you say before, you want people to leave and sit there and think about it, have been impacted by what's happening. And I can tell you that that's been very true for me.

Michael Jamin:

That's been my, because, so Phil came to, I performed this, and if you want to see me perform, you can go to In Your Town if I travel with it, michael jamin.com/upcoming. But that's one of the stories. That's actually one of the stories I gave out to reviewers to review the book and people, they like that story. But yeah, my goal when I write any story, and hopefully I achieve this, is people say, I couldn't put it down. That seems to be the nicest thing you could say about a book. I couldn't put it down. I want you to put the book down. I want you to get to a chapter and just be so moved at the end of it that you're not ready to move forward. You just want to sit in that emotion for however long it takes you, whatever it is, just sit in it.

I don't want you to, it's not meant to be consumed that way. And one of the things that I tried to achieve, I made, we did an audio book and I hired whatever. I partnered with Anthony Rizzo, who's the composer I worked with on Marin. He's a really talented writer composer. And so for the audio book, I would send him each chapter. And then I said to him, he's like, what do you want? I go, no, no, no. I want you to read this piece, interpret it. Tell me what it sounds like to you in music. What's your version of, he's an artist. What does this sound like to you in music? And that's what he came back with. And so at the end in the audiobook, if you prefer to consume it that way, at the end of the story, we go right into the music and it forces you, or not forces you, but allows you to sit in it. It allows you to sit in whatever motion it is. The music carries you out for 30 seconds or however long it is, just so now you can experience it in music, which I love that I just love. I thought he brought so much to the audiobook. I'm so grateful he hopped on board.

Phil Hudson:

I normally listen to audiobooks at 1.5 to 1.75 speed, and then the music kind of throws that off. This is one I would absolutely listen to in real time. Just

Michael Jamin:

Slow it down. Yeah, down,

Phil Hudson:

Slow it down and just sit in it and give yourself the treat and the opportunity to sit in that. I think very often we are constantly looking for the next thing or to get ahead or checking off stuff on our list. And that's not what this book is. This book is a sit in it, allow yourself to feel it. Think about how you can apply it. There's just some beautiful life lessons in here as well.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I hope so. That was my goal.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, I think it's achieved. And I've talked to several people in your advanced reader group who feel the same way.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

And you've got fans in there, but these are people who are very sincere with their compliments as well. And there's some great compliments coming your way from that advanced group.

Michael Jamin:

And so thank you. Honestly, I like to do more of this kind of writing, and this is, to me is very fulfilling at this stage of my career. To me, it's more exciting doing this than writing a TV show that might be seen by millions of people writing something that can make someone just make you laugh, but then feel something. It's funny, I have sort of a recipe and I'm wondering, people can see through it at some point, but I don't really care. My recipe is if I can get you to laugh in the beginning, I just want you to open up. Let's just start laughing about stuff and it start, most of my stories start out very fun and light, and then you kind of relax into, oh, this is going to be fun. And you let your guard down, and as soon as your guard comes down, then I hit you as really hard, as hard as I can with something emotional where I talk about, and because you're in my writing course, you'll know where this happens, where this happens structurally. And then at that point, once I hit him in the heart, there's no point in being funny anymore. The humor has already achieved its goal, which is to you to get your guard down. And so

Phil Hudson:

Engaged, paying attention, it's something, some advice, I know it's standard advice, but it advice used specifically gave me a long time ago, which is it's easy to kill people. It's hard to make them laugh, and so you're almost checking the box on the humor part, so they're completely engaged and engrossed in what's going on, which is why the emotional impact of the reality of this story hits so hard later. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

There were times I thought maybe I'm being too funny here in the beginning, I'm not even sure, but because I didn't want any of this to feel silly, I just wanted it to be fun until, but yeah, tonally, there's, I guess some stories are a little lighter than others for sure.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, it's good stuff. Going back to what you're telling though, in this narrative of how we got to where you are, you said that you reached out to your agent who got you in touch with the literary agent effectively for books and publishing, and a lot of people, myself included, might be tempted to submit to the agent and then wait and do nothing. And you made a point of saying you continued to write. And the question when he came back is, do you have more? So a lot of people, I think the mistake is that they're putting all their eggs in the basket. And we see this all the time with the questions on the webinars for the podcast, for your live q and as, when you do them on social media, whatever it is, how do I get an agent? How do I get a representative? How do I get a showrunner attached? How do I do this? And it's like you say you're putting all the power in the hands of somebody else and you're saying that's the wrong thing to do. And because you didn't, because you're writing for yourself to do the job, and you didn't wait for one person to make your career, you were even more successful

Michael Jamin:

In getting, and he doesn't care. I mean, he's a good guy and everything, but he doesn't care if I achieve this. What does he care? All he wants is, is he going to make money from this? And that's fair enough. He has to make money, so my dream is my dream. I have to make my dream happen. And so yes, then turned it into him. We sent it out, and then the feedback I got was, Hey, this is really great, but platform drives acquisition. I said, well, what does that mean? It means you need to have a social media following. I said, really? It's not good enough that it's well written. No, not anymore. Maybe 30 years ago. But today the industry publishing has changed as much as Hollywood has changed, it's really can they sell it? And now it's sold on social media. You're expected to have that.

And I was a little upset about that. I was like, why can't it just be good enough? Everyone loved it, but platform drives acquisition. I said, all right, well, how big of a social media following do I need? This is two and a half years ago. And I couldn't get a straight answer that no one really knew, but especially in the space of They had a good point, Phil. They really did. It's not like this is not a novel. These are personal essays. But like I said, they're told story-wise, not if you didn't know me. You'd be like, oh, this is a nice story. But it just so happens that it's true. But the point that they made was, or maybe I made it with myself. I think that's what it was. I was like, if you were to go to Barnes and Noble and my book was on the shelf, why would someone buy it if they don't know who I am?

Because there's true stories. Who cares if you don't know who I am? And that's a fair thing to ask. Why would someone pick it off the shelf? Now, here's the thing, as I was arguing with myself, but here's the thing. No one goes to Barnes and Nobles anymore. That's not where people get books. I mean, they exist, but most people just get it online. Most of the books are sold online. So why do I need to be in Barnes and no, I don't. I need, I mean, I can be, but it's not necessary. And so I was like, okay. And then I was like, well, if I build the platform, if I get a big following and people want to support me and buy the book curious and they like what I have to say and they think I'm talented, great. But then why do I need a publisher?

What do they bring to the equation, honestly? Oh, they can get your book in barge. Oh, well, great, but no one goes there anymore. So what exactly did they do? And by the way, they get most of the money. I'm like, okay, well, they help you design the book cover, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is. You sold 'em the Rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving any creative input at all? When the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? I remember at one point, because I had talked to other people in the publishing world and they thought your title could be better. It's called the Paper Orchestra. I was like, yeah, but I think I like the title, but no one really knows what it means. And I'm like, yeah, you got a good point. No one knows what it means until

Phil Hudson:

I remember this conversation,

Michael Jamin:

And then it was ironically, I had a long talk with my daughter. It was on my birthday, and we went for a long walk, and she's so smart, and she says, well, why are she said to me, I thought the whole point of the book was for you to just write what you wanted to write without anyone giving you No. I said, yeah. She goes, well, why are you changing the title? I said, yeah, why am I changing the title? Why am I second guessing myself? So I did it my way. I did a hundred percent my way, and this is my book.

This is my expression without having anyone telling me it's wrong, it's different. It should be this or that. Along the way. I got to say, Phil, it's so frustrating for, it's so frustrating to hear this kind of stuff, I think, but it's like I understand what people want. I want this. I want a complete creative expression. And to me, that's the satisfaction. Whether I sell a hundred copies or one copy or a million copies, it's the process that I got so much joy out of. And I think that's what people will enjoy. I mean, it's like I had so many agents, even afterwards, they find me on social media, they reach out to me, go, and I tell 'em what my book is, and they go, oh, that sounds nice, but if you write a young adult novel, I can sell that for you. Or if you write a how to book, we can sell that. I'm like, if I don't want to write those, this is what I want to write. This is exactly what I wanted to write. You got to do it yourself.

Phil Hudson:

That's right. And that's what you tell people. You got to basically make your mountain, create your mountain, and then climb your mountain.

Michael Jamin:

And all of it's doable. It's just going to take a long time, but it's going to take less time to build your mountain and climb it than it's for you to beg someone to make your life.

Phil Hudson:

And begging someone to make your life means you owe them and they have power over you.

Michael Jamin:

And it's also, but you're going to hear no so many times you're going to get so much rejection. Who needs it? Why not just put all that creative energy into what you want to achieve instead of why are you wasting your energy hitting people up on LinkedIn? What's the point of that?

Phil Hudson:

This is something in business I'm bad about because we've talked about it before. I own a digital marketing agency. That was my career path before I moved to LA, and I still operate that agency, and we do nothing on LinkedIn. And I was like, well, you got to be on LinkedIn. That's where the businesses are. And I was like, I get that Our business is almost purely word of mouth, and it's because I'm not out shaking my can, asking people to put money in it. We stand on the value of the work that we do, and then that's referral work that goes out to other people. And that's not the way to grow to a business that's going to end up on the New York Stock Exchange or end up something you can trade. But what it is, it's a lifestyle business that creates a way for me to do what you're doing, which is to make my art, to be creative, to live my life the way I want without having to be beholden to somebody else dictating what I do with my time and my hours. And what I'm hearing you say is it's effectively the same thing for your book is had you gone with an agent who sold your book to a big publisher, you would now be mandated to do things in a certain way and you would've lost all of the same creative control. And it almost sounds like it would spoil the whole experience for you.

Michael Jamin:

It's hard to say. I mean, in the beginning, that's how I thought I had to do it. And then I realized I didn't have to who it could have been a great experience. I don't know. I mean, we'll never know, but I also know it's not necessary even a little bit, not in today's world. And if I do another book, maybe I will use a publisher, maybe not. I don't know. But the point is, if I do, they're going to pay me for it. You know what I'm saying? This first one's on me. I have to prove myself. Sure. If they want in on Michael Jamin, they're going to have to pay me or else, because now the power has shifted.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I can't remember if we've ever talked about this, but this came up in conversation this week's Kevin Hart, where he worked, traveling, doing standup comedy, getting names, getting emails after shows, building a fan base. And then when he got his first big deal, they were like, all right, and then we'll need you to send this out to your email list. And he said, it's a million dollars. And they said, what? He says, you didn't work to build that list. You don't get my people and mine. I put in the blood, sweat and tears on this. You did not. You're going to pay me for that blood, sweat and tears.

Michael Jamin:

And what happened?

Phil Hudson:

They paid him every

Michael Jamin:

Time they paid him. Yeah. Pay the man and a lot of this, and you've helped out as well with enormously, just in terms of the podcast and help me with marketing and all that stuff and the website. Yeah, but it's still one of these things. Build it first. This is the order in which you need to do things when you make it first and then people will join in. People will want a piece of that. They either want to help you or they'll want part of your success or whatever. It's not the other way around. It's not, Hey, help me make my dream. No one wants to help you make your dream. No one cares about your dream. You build it first and then they'll come out of the woodwork and decide whether they want a piece of you or not, because they can make some money off of it.

But it's so much more empowering when you look at it that way. It's like, Hey, I have something to offer here. I have something great. I'm not even offering it. I have something great here. Do you want a piece of it or not? And the answer, they know, okay, that's fine. I will do it without you. But it's the other, you know what I'm saying? It's not like, Hey, help me make it out. Hey, help me. Then you're begging. It's the other way around. I have something great and I'm going there. I'm doing it with or without you. Up to you, you can decide

Phil Hudson:

It's field of dreams, right? If you build it, they will come. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

You got to build it first though.

Phil Hudson:

You got to build it first. You have to do the crazy thing. You have the lofty idea. You got to go make the baseball field in the middle of your corn field in Nebraska or

Michael Jamin:

Wherever. And people say, though, I don't know how to do that. But if you are a creative person and you want to get into a creative field, writing or screenwriting, whatever, be creative, prove how creative you are, you'll figure it out.

Phil Hudson:

Figure it out. Yeah, go cut your teeth. I think it's this metaphor for life though, which is we have to do things that are difficult and hard and things that we don't enjoy because that's how we learn and grow and get better. And redefining failure I think was a big deal for me because failure was something I just tried to avoid at all costs, to the point that I would do nothing if I thought I wasn't going to be 100% successful. So imagine doing that, trying to be a writer when writing is rewriting, you're not going to be okay the first 10, 15 drafts or whatever. Oh, god. And so if you have this fear of failure and what is failure? So redefining what these things means is very important. And when you start looking at failure, a lot of very smart people have said that failure is just the fastest way to get to success. You just have to fail as fast as possible so that you can achieve your goal. And it's just learning what not to do. And so many quotes about that.

Michael Jamin:

That's one of the things. Another thing that I picked up from another musician, David Bowie, as I was trying to figure out what art is, and he said something very similar. He said, art is basically is taking something from within yourself and figuring out a way how to express it so that you can help understand yourself and the world around you. And he goes, but to make something really great, you have to swim in water. That's just a little too deep to stand in. And that's when something great can happen. When you're in a little over your head, that's when the art is made. And it's the same thing what you're saying. It's like you got to do things that are out of your comfort zone, and that's how you achieve things.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. So social media, being a public persona, subjecting yourself to just some of the most crazy things you've told me people say to you and your comments and your dms and just horrible things. Horrible

Michael Jamin:

Internet is horrible. I don't get a ton of hate, but I do get hate. But that's a double-edged sword of doing this. But also then it was also, okay, I put myself on social media as a screenwriter, as a TV writer, and here I'm sharing my expertise working in the business for 27 years, but I also have show you that I have to show you that I'm actually good at what I do, so that I try to make my posts funny. Or sometimes I just do a post. It's all funny so that you feel like, okay, maybe this guy can write as opposed to just me saying, I can write, showing you that I can write. So there's that kind of bridge I have to cross.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. The exercise of putting yourself out there though is just something you were hesitant to for years and years and years. I think since I met you, I've been telling you, you need to be on social media. You need to grow a social media following, and it was just not your thing. And what I appreciate about your story with this book is you care so much about this book and doing this thing for yourself that you're willing to do the uncomfortable, which is be public facing person who is willing to put yourself out there almost every single day for two and a half years despite what anybody says, because that is what is required for you to make sure that you are able to have the maximum impact as you can with this thing that's so important to you. And that is something most people aren't willing to do.

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a Collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book. Go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book.

Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show. I mean, I have people who go on social and things. I go on social media. There's a lot of influencers that I follow or whatever, usually experts in their field, but many of them, or most of them don't use their real name. They don't because they want that anonymity, and I don't blame them, but I can't do that. If I'm talking about my book, you got to know what my name is. And so I end everything is Michael Jamon writer. That's scary to put your real name out there. And so there's that as well.

Phil Hudson:

This is scary in a real way too. I'm aware of at least two police reports we've had to file for people who've been insane.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, there's some insane people out there, but really insane and nothing too dangerous. I had to report,

Phil Hudson:

But its hate

Michael Jamin:

Speech. You still have to report

Phil Hudson:

It. It speech, it's hate speech. It's threatening. It's angry language, and the things that you're talking about are wild. They're not invoking it. One of the compliments I think you get for people is how you respond to criticism. It's like you could destroy people because you have that capacity.

Michael Jamin:

I could do that with my words. You're

Phil Hudson:

The definition of a good man, and the fact that you are dangerous with your words and you choose not to use it,

Michael Jamin:

I would believe me, I would tear them apart and make them look silly, but it doesn't help me any. It doesn't actually help me. So I just, I'm getting there rolling in the dirt with them, and then we both get dirty. So for the most part, I just ignore, but I also talk to other creators how they handle the same thing. It's this new internet fame. It's a strange territory.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Well, we were just talking earlier today about how you went. Did you go into a Kinko's or something to Prince

Michael Jamin:

And stuff? Yeah, I went to a Kinko's. I got spotted in the wild.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, somebody knew who you were and it was more common. Shout out Chris. Chris on the podcast, but it's like the first time, I remember the first time that really happened to you. I remember you told me You'll never believe what happened. I was out in this place and somebody shotted Michael Jamon Ry from their car. It's just a weird thing.

Michael Jamin:

It's just odd. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

I've had a taste of that through association, and I've talked about it on the podcast as well, where we went to our wrap party for Tacoma FD season four, and one of the assistant editors comes up and he goes, dude, I got to tell you, my wife works in the industry and she's an accountant, and she brought over her accountant friend, and they were like, oh, what Jody do you work on? And he was like, I work on Tacoma Dean. And she's like, oh, I listen to Phil Hudson's podcast.

Michael Jamin:

Oh,

Phil Hudson:

Wow. And he's like, I didn't even know you had a podcast. I was like, ah. It's a strange feeling. And then later that night, one of our accountants, it must be accountants who listened to our podcast, they brought someone over to the party's like, yeah, listen to your podcast. I was like, it feels weird. And I'm not even Michael Jammin. I'm just a guy who's on there.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's strange to put yourself out there like that, but you're doing it,

Phil Hudson:

But you're doing it.

Michael Jamin:

I'm doing it, but I also, yeah. And also, listen, if you want to know more about me, then you'll definitely read the book. The book is very vulnerable, but it's still weird. I don't know. I felt like, well, David Sedaris can do it. I can do it. But I also, I think that's interesting about, I do think that's interesting about this kind of writing is that as opposed to writing a novel that you're making up and you are making up these characters, I feel like the stakes are higher when you're reading something like my book, because you, oh, this character's real, and he's really going through, it's not like when you're reading a fake a movie or watching a movie or reading a book, a novel and the character dies or whatever gets injured or something. Part of you can still say, okay, it's still made up. It's not real. That's just an actor going through something and the actor's pretending. But when you read this, you go, oh, this is real. This is a real person. This is not made up. And I do feel like it raises the stakes, and in some way, I feel like this is my answer to ai, to what if everyone's worried that AI is going to take writer's jobs? This is my answer to that, which is, AI cannot do this. AI is not capable of telling a story about me. That's real. I have to do that.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Someone just yesterday I saw someone posted that asking AI to write about, to write about something is having them listen to a thousand hours of people talking about pizza and then asking it to make a pizza is just like, it's not going to come out. It's just not going to come out.

Michael Jamin:

I get a lot of people in my comments and they'll say things when I talk about ai, you clearly don't understand ai, and I want to say, you clearly don't understand writing. That's what you don't understand. Yep.

Phil Hudson:

It's the human condition. I mean, we've been talking about this forever. That's what Star Trek is, right? It's data figuring out what it means to be human. The thing that comes to mind for me is this, for random clip, I saw probably when it was airing real time in the early nineties, and my dad was watching it and it's data talking about how, oh, boy, time flies. And he couldn't understand the expression, time flies. And so he sat and watched an egg boil over and over and over again. He's like, it takes exactly eight minutes and 32 seconds or egg to boil because he couldn't understand or comprehend it from the machine side. And so it's all about that. Even machines want to be more human. And rioting is exploring the human condition. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

That's right. That's right. So if you want to understand yourself and you write, and then to me getting back to the book, that's what this process was figuring out who I am, figuring out who I, and it's so interesting because all these patterns kept on emerging. I got write a story and I'd get halfway through it, and I'm thinking, why would this character, and let's say this story is something that I did when I was 11 or whatever, why would this character do that? Why would I have done that? And a lot of times I just didn't know, why would I do that? It didn't make sense. Then I'd write something, I'd go, no, that doesn't feel true. That feels like the TV version. What's the real version? And then I'd have to think of another memory from that time. And I think, oh, I wonder if those two are related. And now I'm figuring out who I am. And I'm like, oh, that's why I would do that. That makes sense. Which is so interesting to finally be able to understand yourself at the end of this book. I'm like, oh, I know who I am.

Phil Hudson:

In some of my research for one of the pilots I wrote about special operators in the Seal team, six Delta fours, green Berets, army Rangers. I was listening to a bunch of podcasts, and one of 'em was talking about this principle that your level of trauma or your level of struggle is the same as mine. Even if something I've been through has been more horrific. From an objective perspective, our perception of my worst trauma and your worst trauma are equally impactful. And I'm wondering, we had very different childhoods, and we've talked a bit about mine and a little bit about yours, but does that process of exploring, why would you do things as a child? Is that healing for you?

Michael Jamin:

And it was healing and helpful. A lot of these stories, I feel, are apologies to various people I've heard over my life, and it's not written to be an apology, but when you're telling the truth, it's an apology. When you're acknowledging your end of it, it's an apology. And so I'm not writing it, Hey, please forgive me. It's just about the truth. And so, yeah, I really, it's so helpful, and hopefully this is what people will respond to. When you read the book, you go, oh, man, yeah, thank you for that. Thank you for putting to words what I couldn't do because I'm not a writer. Yeah,

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. That's the stuff that stays with us, right? It's a metaphor for things we're going through. And I think one of the most impactful lessons I learned in film school was the cool job effect.

Michael Jamin:

What is that?

Phil Hudson:

So it was this Russian director who showed the same shot of a man, and then he put it against a starving child or a child in a casket or food, or a beautiful woman. And at the end, everyone came up. And that actor was incredible. When he looked at the food, I could feel his desire for food. When he looked at that girl, I could see the pain of her death. And when he saw the woman, I could feel the lust. It's the exact same shot of the same man. And it's the subjective projection that one puts onto art that allows you, it's an unconscious way for you to make sense of your world and import what your experience is in on something, which is why art has always been a part of humanity. It's why it's something that we have always, I think, sought after. It's not entertainment from a sedation perspective where we're trying to avoid it. Sometimes it's that, but very often the things that impact us and mean something, they are things that we need to experience because they make sense. They allow us to make sense of our world.

Michael Jamin:

Right. That's a good point that you point that out. Yeah. It's like I feel like I've played a part of that in writing sitcoms sometimes, and there's a place for it. You'll come home after a long day, you just want to thrown out and laugh and really not be challenged and not go there, but for this piece. And there's nothing wrong with that. People want to be entertained. But for this,

Phil Hudson:

People still learn from that too, that people need that, and it serves a role too.

Michael Jamin:

They need that. But for this, I didn't want that. I wanted to go way deeper than that. I wanted to because I wanted to feel something. Because my contention as a comedy writer, and I know this is true, is that when you write that humor, write something funny. Or if you go, sometimes you'll go see a standup who's hilarious, but then you leave and you are hard pressed to remember one joke that you liked, or you're hard pressed to remember what you even liked about it. You go, I just spent an hour laughing, but I don't really remember any of it. I know I enjoyed myself, but I can't, it's not with me anymore. And what I really wanted to do was write something that would stay with you after this. So you were still feeling like we talked about, you're still feeling it. And you can't just do that with comedy. You have to mix drama into it. Because comedy, that's not what comedy does.

Phil Hudson:

Well, I mean, your course and what I've seen you do in your craft and sitcoms as well, this is really key point, is why do we care about this thing? The reason we don't care. That's the story. And that's the personal, and that's the people. And so, I mean, this has been your point, and what you've been teaching for years and years anyway is none of it matters unless it means something. And that is the drama part of the comedy. That comedy can break things and it can move us and give us that ebb and flow and that roller coaster effective emotions. And those are beautiful experiences to have in sitcoms or dramas or dramedies. But it's the, why are we watching this? It's the human thing. It's that human piece. That's what you're saying. That's what I'm hearing.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. What's at stake here? What's really at stake? And again, I studied other writers. Some I thought did it great, and some I didn't think did it well at all. And so I was trying to hold myself to that higher standard of the ones who did it really well, because I knew what I, what I wanted out of this.

Phil Hudson:

And again, we've started by saying, you've climbed this mountain, and there's another mountain.

Michael Jamin:

There's another mountain. Sometimes people have said to me like, well, are you going to turn this into a TV show? It's so odd. It's so odd. Or a movie that somehow I was even watching, what was I watching, American Fiction, that movie. And there's a line in it where this author, she had a book that was a bestseller, and then she's giving an interview and someone said, oh, maybe they'll a hear. They're making a movie out of it. And she's like, well, I can't tell you anymore as if a movie is better than a book or a TV show is better than a book. A book could be a book, a book. What's wrong with a book? Just being a book.

So I don't either have any plans to turn this in TV show. If anyone, could it be me? I am a TV writer. I could have very specific ideas on how I would want to do it, and whether a buyer would want to do that or not, I don't know. But I wouldn't compromise how I'd want to do it. But the best way to make it happen, if it did happen, I would have to sell a lot of books first. So if anyone wants to see it happen, then get a book. And then I would actually make content behind the scenes on TikTok, Hey, look at me now I'm meeting with this studio. And now if that's the ride you want to go on, then in order to go on that ride, I have to sell a lot of copies. But again, that's not my goal. Show support. You can if you're curious, but again, that's not my goal. The goal of this was only one thing. I want to write a book that moves people was never a TV show. I can write a TV show. I write TV shows. That's not what I wanted to do.

Phil Hudson:

And if you want to be moved, you have to buy a copy of the book because if you're listening to this and you want to experience what Michael has put together, you have to buy a copy of the book because that is, I know the number you've invested significantly into just making this happen for yourself. This is not some random cousin who's like, Hey, I wrote a book and I put it on Amazon publishing. This is the real deal. I mean, lift your book up if you don't mind, so people can see the cover. This has been out for a minute, but even just the story of this cover and how you got this cover and found this artist and license, it is a beautiful story in and of itself.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Okay. That's another thing. So I wanted to cover,

Phil Hudson:

Before we dive into this, I just wanted to point out too, when you were talking about, you looked at all these other writers and people and you said, that's who I want. That's the level I want to be at. You've done this one. Whatever you do next, you're still going to be saying the same thing. All right. What's the next level of professionalism or craft that I can get to? And that's because you are a pro, and that's what you tell people to be a professional, which is constantly striving to be better than the last time.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. There are a lot of writers or authors, maybe indie authors, they're cranking out books. I'm like, Jesus, I cranked this out. This took four years. I didn't crank this out. This was worked on really, I really worked on it.

Phil Hudson:

But talk about your cover. I apologize for interjecting there. I just wanted to get that point across that you're still going to be pursuing that. Excellent. And that's what makes people stand out. Excellence stands out in a world, I hope so.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, make something good and people will, okay, so for the cover, I wanted a good cover, but the book is funny and it's also very poignant. And so I looked at other books that I thought were really good, and so I found this one guy who had actually designed some of David Sari's early covers. I didn't know this guy, but obviously he gets comedy. So I read, his name is Steve Snyder. I just found him on Instagram. I don't know him from a hole in the wall. And I DMed him. I slid into his dms and I told him what I was working on, and I told him, I noticed how weird it's for me to reach out to him. And he goes, oh, well, send me your manuscript. So I did. And then a couple weeks went by, he wrote back. He goes, I love it. I'm in. And now this guy, he's like 80 or something, but he was retired. He goes, I'll come back out of retirement to make the cover for you. I go, great, but just so you know, I don't know what my budget is. He goes, oh, I'll do it for free. I want to be part of it. I love it. I want to be part of it.

Phil Hudson:

Wow, Michael, just let that sit. I know you've internalized that, but we talk about to everybody. You got to own the wins and you got to celebrate the victory. He's like, what does that mean to you that this accomplished

Michael Jamin:

Desire? It was very validating. It was very, and then I was like, alright, well, I'll just figure out what I'm going to pay you later, but, but then as we were moving down the line, he's retired, so he was getting, I just made plans. I'm going to be traveling from, he goes, I want to do this, but I don't think I can get it done on time. He goes, I was like, okay, I don't want to, okay, maybe you can refer somebody. So he recommended one of these accolades, one of the people he trained under him. And so I reached out to her same deal. And so I want hiring her, Jenny Carro. She did a wonderful job with the cover, but getting the cover. And then when we finally got the cover and I reached out to Steve again, I go, here's the cover.

You want to see it? And he goes, oh, damn. I love it. I wish I didn't drop out. That's awesome. But what happened with Jenny? So she came back with a bunch of covers that were good, but they didn't feel right. There was something about it didn't feel right. It was like almost, and then she had one cover, and I hate to keep going back and forth with her. I was like, I don't want to discourage her. So one was almost good, almost like right, but not quite right. And then I was intent. I was going to use it. And then for some reason I happened to see an ad on Facebook. It was an article about artists or whatever. So I click on this article and I'm reading the article, and then there's other, I see the cover that she was going to license for my, she was going to license some artwork for my cover, and I recognize it.

I go, that's it. And I click on it to discover more about what this artist had done. And then, which took me to his website or his Instagram page, I don't remember. And then I discover all his other work and I go, that's the one. So this is a licensed piece of art from this Dutch artist named Tune Juin. And I reached out to him, I want to license this art for your book, for my book. And he goes, great. It was just a boy sitting on words. And the title is a paper orchestra. And so it's not, what does it mean? It's just a boy struggling with words. That's all it is. And that's what the book is. It's about a boy who grew up to be a man who struggled with words.

Phil Hudson:

Do you remember what I told you when you told me that story? You remember what I called

Michael Jamin:

It? What did you

Phil Hudson:

I said, that's Providence.

Michael Jamin:

Providence, yeah. There was a lot of that. There was a lot of just, Hey, that's the universe telling me this is what your cover should be. And once I saw it, I go, that's it. We're done. We're done. We could stop looking.

Phil Hudson:

And then here's an artist who is putting art out that I would consider to not be standard, normal art that you would think about in a normal way. And then here he is featured in this article, and then here, now you're reaching out and his art is now supporting and improving your art. It's a beautiful thing.

Michael Jamin:

And then the same thing with Anthony Rizzo, who did the music. When I got him aboard, I go, listen, Anthony, I'm making this audiobook. I don't know how much I can pay you. He goes, I don't care. I want to be part of it. So I was like, okay. And then I had a small budget for him, but then I got this brand deal from Final Draft. I go, oh, good. I can give him whatever I was going to pay him. Now I can pay him additional money from this brand deal. It doesn't come really out of my pocket. Its money. It's kind of found money. So I just give it right to him. That's great. That's

Phil Hudson:

Great. I love that, man. Your network will pay in spades if the work you do is quality and you're a good person. I've seen that for you. I've seen that for myself. I've seen it in lots of other people. People want to be a part of your project if what you're doing means something and you're kind. And if you were Dick, imagine you were the showrunner and you were throwing tantrums and going on Tirades on Marin. Do you think anybody, I would want to work with you on this.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But there's that. And like I said, there's also build it for, if I started this by saying, reaching out to these people on Instagram or whatever, Hey, I have this idea that I want to make. Will you be part? No, come back to me when you're done, basically. And so for everyone who has a movie they want to make or a scene, alright, shoot a scene on a park bench with your phones. They're like, you don't need to spend $10,000. You could do it for 50. Whatever you need.

Phil Hudson:

Jamie Kaler, who I think you're going to have on the podcast, he just Captain Polonsky on Taco D and a bunch of other stuff. I had a long running series as well. He's got a series that he did with another known actor called Dad's in a Park, I think is what it's called. It's him on a bench with another dad just talking about dad stuff.

Michael Jamin:

And where's that on YouTube?

Phil Hudson:

I'll find it. I think it's on YouTube and Instagram. But it's so real and funny. It's like, yeah, this makes sense. And it's two great actors who are just doing their thing. And it plays and it plays really well. It's very funny.

Michael Jamin:

And when you look at people doing interesting things, this is what I say, people who are just popping, who just broke onto the Hollywood scene somehow. Somehow they have a special on Netflix or somehow they're a star of a show or a movie, whatever. Look how they did it. They did it themselves. And then Hollywood discovered them because Hollywood was like, oh, we can make money off this person.

Phil Hudson:

It's the fable. It wasn't

Michael Jamin:

The other way around.

Phil Hudson:

It's a fable of overnight success that is never overnight success. There was always something before that. Every

Michael Jamin:

Time, these are people who are already building it, people like me, people like you who are already building it, and then people see go, oh, what's that fool over there building? I want in on it. And that fool's going to say, well, you can be in or you can either way. I'm doing it without you. So come along for the ride if you want

Phil Hudson:

Going to happen. I had love to talk about some of the endorsements of your book, if that's okay. I don't want to embarrass you with some of this stuff. How do you feel about telling the John Mayer story?

Michael Jamin:

Oh my God. That's another

Phil Hudson:

Thing. I think it's a great story. And I'll just say this. Michael will always be very hesitant about bringing in friends or colleagues to talk about his stuff. And he's made it very clear as we're talking about how to help him market his book, how are we doing this in a way that's not going to ever feel like I am using these people? And so what we have on your site that are published are reviews that people have given you of your book. And there are sincere, honest reviews of your book. And these are people you've worked with and some of them are people you've not worked with. And Mark and John Mayer I think is just this amazing story of someone you've never worked with, but because of this mountain that you've built and that you've climbed, now there's this relationship or connection with John, the John Mayer. Yeah. And I think it's worth talking about, and John May and John Mayer has this great TV show that was on VH one. It's called John Mayer has a TV show, by the way. It's one of the funniest things I have ever seen. Oh, really? And you talk about you ever gone to a standup comedy show or something and you laughed. And I remember bits from this thing. Oh, funny. It is that funny. I'll send it to you after.

Michael Jamin:

But yeah, I want to see that. Yeah, I just noticed that he was following me on Instagram or I think on, I

Phil Hudson:

Think Mark Hoppel in the course, if I recall, tagged, commented and said, Hey, did anyone see? Is that the John Mayer? I think he kind of shouted it out in your

Michael Jamin:

Comments. Yeah, I had forgotten that. John. Every once in a while, someone famous would follow me. I'm like, look at that. Look at that. That's odd. Which is nice. And then so yeah, so he was been following me, and then I needed to get a blurb. I'm like, why not reach out to John Mayer? What do I got to lose? And he is a fabulous musician and guitarist. He really can play. That guy can play. So I just sent him a dm. Hey John Mayer. I know this is weird. I got a book coming out. I'd love a blurb from you. I can just send you one chapter if you want, just one chapter. That way you don't have to, whatever you want. And so he goes, yeah, yeah. He writes back, I just finished. I'm on way back to the hotel. He just finished a concert, right? It was by 10 at night. It was, I don't know what time it was. It was late where he was

Phil Hudson:

Just putting Michael Jam in late night sliding into John Mayer's dms. Everybody just keep that in mind.

Michael Jamin:

So he's in his car going back to the hotel, and I'm like, all right. So I sent him one story, and I think it was the Ghoul, the one we were just talking about. And he was great. I'll read it. He's just unwinding from his show. And so about a half hour later, he writes back to me, and this is the quote I put on the book he wrote, it's fantastic multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time, his knockout punches are stinging sincerity, which is exactly what a musician would write. Yeah,

Phil Hudson:

Multi.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I go, this is perfect because I can write more. And I'm like, this is perfect. And so we spent, I don't know, an hour or so just DMing each other and I'm asking him questions about art, and he's just DMing back. I'm like, holy shit. I'm DMing John Mayer. And it was getting late, and it was later where he was. He was on the East Coast, and my wife's like, I'm lying in bed. Are you still talking to John Mayer? Yeah, I'm

Phil Hudson:

Still

Michael Jamin:

Talking to John Mayer

Phil Hudson:

Was hilarious. You can't write that. It's a beautiful little thing. But he was so gracious. You're lying in bed next to your wife, DMing someone. And it's John Mayer. It's John Mayer. It's not some floozy. It's not some random girl on the internet. It's John Mayer. And she's like,

Michael Jamin:

He had so many interesting things to say and I'll continue sharing with another podcast. But I was asking him about art, about his, like I said, I learned from musicians, for some reason, what they do resonates with me and was, I dunno. He was so gracious and he did it right away. And what he wrote was beautiful. And then I was asking him about some of the songs he wrote, and he had some really good advice that applies to writing as well that I thought was just this guy's, when you talk to him, you go, oh, this guy's an artist. He's not phoning any of this in. He gives a lot of thought to what he's doing and it's super important to him. And I just thought, I just have so much respect for people like that. It was like he not a guy trying to be famous. He's a guy trying to make really good music.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, his blue stuff is beautiful. Love it. That's great. Obviously you got quotes from Mark Marin. He said some really kind things about you. He said, Michael was essential in helping me portray myself. Honestly. Michael did a beautiful job of it with a paper orchestra portraying your authentic self.

Michael Jamin:

And that was something I learned actually from running his TV show. Mark was very vulnerable on the show and very, we break stories in the room and I'm like, boy, I can't believe you're admitting to that. And he almost looked, well, of course. Of course. Why wouldn't I? And so learning how to write for him actually was very helpful. Learning how to write this,

Phil Hudson:

Kevin and Steve, I picked that up in Tacoma of D too. They, there's no shame in the life that they've led. They will just tell you,

Michael Jamin:

Especially Steve. Steve will tell you everything you want to know.

Phil Hudson:

Shameless, love it. Love Steve. There you go. Steve called me out on his podcast and said, he said, not that Phil Hudson's not an actor, but he's not. And I was like, oh, Steve, that hurts. Oh yeah. He told me that my acting went to my head. I was like, it did a little, that's, there you go, Steve. Shots fired. Yeah. But it's like not having pride of that. And it allows you to be vulnerable enough to get to the things. It is what you've told me before, though, nobody cares.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

No one cares. You think other people care. They don't care. They're too busy thinking about themselves

Michael Jamin:

And they're not. I've said this before, is that I think one of the worries people had when I was writing this book, they go, well, this is pretty personal, pretty vulnerable. Are you worried about being judged? And I've responded, I'm more worried about people judging me to be a bad writer. And so because of that, I will go there. I will give it to you because that's more concerning to me that you think I'm a bad writer. And so ironically, if you're worried about being judged, the course of action you should take is allow yourself to be judged and then you won't be judged.

Phil Hudson:

You and I were talking to another writer once and they said that they didn't want to go there, and you told me, we had a conversation. Did you hear what they said? And it's like, this is someone who has lived a life and has a story to tell and they won't go there.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I'm like, well, you signed up for the wrong job. That's the job. Sorry.

Phil Hudson:

It was beautiful. Laura Sanoma left me a beautiful Barb beer.

Michael Jamin:

She's so sweet. I worked with her on Jas Shoot Me. It was my first job. And so I reached out to her and if you want to read, but she wrote,

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, it's hard to see the letters I'm typing because my eyes are still Misty. Michael was a writer on a show I did, and I know he's funny. That's his gift and profession. I did laugh out loud that I expected, but what I appreciated the most was being led into Thoughts down the path to his deepest confessions and deepest Loves Good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved The Journey. And Michael, I don't know that there's any more fitting way to cap off the conversation we've had today than that quote.

Michael Jamin:

And she's an artist as well. I mean, she's an actor. I remember working with her. Laura's with the material. She's an artist. So I think she appreciated my journey as well.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Not to take away from that, I just thought if we could just talk about some of the other people who've read your book and Left Blurbs, and you guys can go see this@michaeljamon.com slash book. You've got Steve Levitan, who co-created Modern Family. He's the creator of Just Shoot Me Your First Real Boss, right?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Judy Greer, the infamous Judy Greer. John Schuller, who co-created Silicon Valley. He worked with you on King of the Hill.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, king of the Hill and Lopez as well.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Max Mutchnick, the co-creator, will and Grace, Dave Krinsky. He was a showrunner in King of the Hill. John Abel, who was a writer on Kung Fu Panda, who wrote Kung Fu Panda, the infamous Steve Lemmy from Broken Lizard Lemmy, Kevin Heffernan from Super Drew Beers Beer, fast to Co FD and Broken Lizard, and David Litt, who was a co-creator of King of Queens. And you have many more that are not listed here, but it seems to me like the people who've read your book at a high level, people that we look up to or know are having the same experience that Phil Hudson's having in 2022, sitting in a small theater in Glendale, California, watching you perform your craft and seeing your vulnerability on stage. And so it really does feel transcendent and something that we will speak to everybody who listens to it on audio or reads it on digital or in paperback.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. So I hope all of you will enjoy it. And if you are writers yourselves, I hope it inspires you to mine your own life for stories. And that's actually the last chapter I talk about that how I turn is a little behind the scenes of how I actually turn this idea into a story like my thought process while, so if that interests you as well, that's also a part of the book as a bonus little part.

Phil Hudson:

That's great. Now, I am one who will buy almost all formats of a book. I can put on audio while I'm, audio is better for me. I can remember most of that tones and things like that. But often when I'm trying to study something, I will read it while I'm listening to it. This feels almost like a performance, getting to see you live in the audio book format here, and I think there's a bonus. Is that right? With your wife, Cynthia, who directed this?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. That's on the audio book. We had a little, again, a different behind the scenes as well. Some people, at the end of the day, it is very visual because I still write it as if like, okay, what are we watching in the scene? I am still a screenwriter at heart. So you're like, okay, it's not very, so I try to make these scenes, I go, so you can picture it. So in your head, I think it's part of the enjoyment. You get to see it in your head. Although, like I said, I didn't want you to think I was a TV writer, but parts of it I think you have to embrace.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Well, all formats available right now@michaeljamon.com. Anywhere books are found at this stage right through set up. So if you're interested, go pick it up. You're doing sign copies on your website, so can sign copy. You can go to michael jamon.com/book and you can get it there. Anything else you want to talk about your book?

Michael Jamin:

That's it. We got some merch as well. We got some accompanying merch. That's another thing. I hope this works out by the time I have to make merch. So I have a friend who is, I hope this works out. We're talking on Monday. He does the bumpers. He used to do the bumpers for the Conan O'Brien show. So he's helped me with design some of the merch, and this is how it works. If people out, Hey, I want to be part of that.

Phil Hudson:

Well, it's been a pleasure and I just want say, and I'm so proud of you as your friend and someone I look up to is beyond just a mentor, really, someone I look to as a dear friend, I am so proud of you for the work you've put in for putting yourself out there. I have seen, and again, you're older than me and have lived more life than I have, but in the time I've known you, I've seen your growth as you've put yourself out there to be more vulnerable, to share your art, and you're reaping the rewards of that through other people wanting to participate and the ability to impact other people. And I think you're a great example to people of why you should be putting yourself out there. Because imagine all of the lives you've touched over the last two and a half years through the podcast, through your videos, through your social media content, and how many of them you would've never, ever been able to impact had you not started down this journey that you didn't want to go down, but needed to. Because as we've heard in stoicism say, the obstacle is the way, right. Your path, this obstacle of growing, your following and putting yourself out there is the path. That journey is the path you needed to go down to have the fulfillment of getting this out.

Michael Jamin:

And thank you for all your help and your help marketing this and all that stuff, the website, all that stuff.

Phil Hudson:

Of course, happy to support you in anything you're doing here. And likewise, it's so mutual too. And for everybody, this isn't something I'm getting paid to do. I'm doing it, and I've been doing it because it's mutually beneficial. I want to be a part of what you're doing, and I've been begging for this for years of knowing you get this type of stuff. So it's mutually beneficial. And everybody who knows me because of Michael, thank you for that trust. But Michael, thank you for having the life experience to say what you need to say in a way that is impactful.

Michael Jamin:

Well, thank you. That's beautifully said. That's because you're a writer. Thank

Phil Hudson:

You. Working on it.

Michael Jamin:

Working on it.

Phil Hudson:

Thank you, sir. Lots of stuff to talk about. Obviously the book is the most important thing right now. There's webinars, there's of courses, there's free stuff. But right now, now's the time to go support on the book and do something for yourself. Get the book and give yourself time to breathe and sit with it and feel it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, feel it. Go get it. Michael jamen.com. Thank you guys so

Phil Hudson:

Much. Until next time. Keep reading.

Michael Jamin:

Keep reading. Thank you, Phil.

Phil Hudson:

Catch you guys later. Bye.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asked the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

Show Notes

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you better figure that out because your story needs to be about one thing everyone wants to throw in the kitchen sink. And it's about this, but it's also about this, but it also has elements of this. It's like, no, no, you don't know what your story is. You got a hot mess. You can't kitchen sink it. Your story's about one thing. And if you think it's about two things, congratulations. Now you have a sequel or you have another episode, but your story's about one thing. And if you think I'm making it up, read stories that you've enjoyed and ask yourself the same question. What is this about you're listening to? What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts. Hey everyone, welcome back to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? And today I am answering your questions and I'm back here with Phil. Welcome back, Phil,

Phil Hudson:

Good to be here. Thank you for

Michael Jamin:

Having me. We had a delay because I borrowed some of Phil's mic equipment for a few weeks and then I gave it back to him with the wrong card. And then Phil, you learned a lesson. The lesson is no good deed goes unpunished.

Phil Hudson:

Oh man, I feel like's. I'm

Michael Jamin:

Happy to have taught you that lesson. Thank

Phil Hudson:

You for teaching me that lesson. I feel like the theme of every story I've ever written is that you get screwed either way. Just so everyone knows. Sometimes high tech is low tech and we have these awesome zoom recorders and they only allow you to have a 32 megabyte SD card. And then the American way of gluttony. We bought massive SD cards for the podcast, missed an SD card somewhere. So

Michael Jamin:

Here we're won't run, but we're back and we made it work. We had a little delay. And so today I have these webinars every three weeks or so where I talk to people about writing. And anyone's welcome to join. It's free, go to michaeljamn.com/webinar for the next one. And we have a rotating list of topics that I cover and they're all writing related. And so these are some of the questions I didn't have time to answer during these webinars.

Phil Hudson:

And you are often testing new subjects too, so if you've attended them in the past, make sure you come sign up so you can get into those.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Alright, well, we've got several topics and as we do, I tend to group these together based on subject matter, and these are raw questions just ask during the podcast. So I apologize in advance for ruining people's names and mispronouncing everything, but let's start with craft. I think that's the thing people care a lot about is how do they get better at writing? And s sl junk indie author asks, how does the story structure fluctuate depending on genre, I should say too, this is from your podcast, how to Write a Great Story, which is one of your My

Michael Jamin:

Webinar. My webinar. Your

Phil Hudson:

Webinar, yeah, yeah. Excuse me. Your webinar, how to Write a Great Story, which is one of your most popular webinars that we have. So if you haven't signed up for that, go do that the next time it's up. So how does the story structure fluctuate? Depending on genre, if I'm writing a horror, but I'm used to fantasy, what are some things I need to consider when structuring my story?

Michael Jamin:

I really don't think there's that much of a difference, to be honest. I think if you're writing a mystery that's different, and I think writing mysteries, people do it wrong all the time. Rich are a little harder to do, but you're just telling the story structure is very similar. You're telling a scary story. A horror story is just a scary story. A fantasy is just, it is a fantastical story, but they're just stories. I mean, everyone gets hung up on these genres. You get to decide the tone and the tone of your story is scary or fantastical, but it's still a story.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Something that you told me privately that I think is interesting for everybody listening, you were approached by a publisher who said, we want to make you the next Save the Cat. We want you to publish this book series, and you've never read any of those things. But for those of us who have, this is commonly taught, what are the tropes of your genre? What are the things in your genre? What is the story structure of your genre? And it's like you read between the lines and it's like what you've said many times. You're taking something apart and reassembling that and it's not the right way. You need to start with structure and then move forward. It's the same reason you do a foundation and then a frame, and then you do the rest of the house.

Michael Jamin:

You can paint the house any color you want, and that's whether it's scary or funny or dramatic or whatever. That's just color of paint. But the house still looks the same for the framing, still looks the same regardless of what paint you want to put on it.

Phil Hudson:

Awesome. Just Mason May. How does someone overcome the concern that our work won't live up to its potential?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, it never does. To get over it, you'll never be happy. You'll never be, oh, I should have done it. This. When you're done, you're always going to look at it and go, I wonder if this could have been better. I think any artist is going to feel that way, but if the question is how do I make sure it's good enough to even share, well, then you can just give it to your friend or your mother or whoever and have them look at it and read it. Take your name off the cover and ask them, did you enjoy reading this? When you got to the bottom of the page, did you want to turn the page or not? And if you wanted to turn the page, you did a good job. And if you didn't, something's wrong.

Phil Hudson:

Right. Aside from that, what would you recommend people do to overcome the fear of rejection or the fear of someone hating their work?

Michael Jamin:

I get over it. I mean, that's the job you're signing up for this. Hopefully no one's going to be too mean to you, but just know that when I was starting off, I was no good. No one's good when they start off. I mean, no one starts every single artist you admire, musician, actor, writer, whatever, performer, they were not good when they started. Listen to them in interviews. They'll say as much, so you get better. The more you do, the better you get.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. We watch these kids shows now that I've got small children, and one of our favorite shows is Bluey, which I've talked about before. And they just dropped a bunch of new episodes yesterday, and one of the episodes is about drawing. And the daughter bluey is not good at drawing, but the dad's not good at drawing, but the mom's really good at drawing, and then the little sister doesn't care at all. She's just a kid and she's just drawing whatever she wants. And so the dad's super conscientious, self-conscious of what he's drawing. And so bluey the protagonist becomes a little self-conscious of her drawing, and they tell the story that the dad made fun of when he was a kid. So he stopped and the mom, just, her mom incentivized her, encouraged her, you're doing great for a 7-year-old. And she was like, oh, and that was enough. And then she became a wonderful artist. So at the end, bluey and the dad are both freed up to draw the things that they got made fun of or were worried about. And it's this beautiful allegory of just, Hey, just let it go. Who cares? That person's just being a jerk and it's because they envy what you do. That's

Michael Jamin:

A good lesson. That's a good lesson from that show.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, it's a great show. I bet we should watch it with your kids, Michael.

Michael Jamin:

My kids are too old to watch TV with me now.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, that's scary. It's so sad to hear that. Rachel Zoo, I would like to get my motivation for riding back and for everybody. You have this other webinar you just put out, which is about how professional writers overcome writer's block. And I think that kind of addresses this, but this was before that. But what general thoughts do you have about getting motivation back to write?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, I can't motivate anyone. I mean, if you don't have the motivation in you, then it's not going to get done. So you have to be self-driven. But probably what you're experiencing is the fact that you just don't know how to do it. And so when you don't know how to do something or you think you're bad at it, it's not fun. Why would you want to do anything when you feel like you're horrible at it? But once you learn how to do it and story structure can be taught and it doesn't make writing easier, it makes it easier. It doesn't make it easy, but it makes it easier. So I think the problem that you're facing is you just dunno how to do it yet. So come to some of my webinars and that'll help you a lot just to learn. You're flailing. I don't blame you. It's no fun. When you're flailing

Phil Hudson:

For everybody who is unaware, you also give away the first lesson of your online course for free @michaeljamin.com/free. And you teach this beautiful lesson about what is story. That alone is worth its weight in gold because it's just something we all miss or forget. And you've even said you forget sometimes.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I mean, I was watching a movie that I got a screener the other, and I'm getting halfway through, I go, there's no story here. I'm bored. And now my wife was bored by it too, but she didn't know why. I knew why because I'm a writer. I'm like, what's the story you're telling? No one knew. And yet the movie got made. I dunno, I got to tell you.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. The other thing that comes to mind is many people have heard this guy, and you've heard me talk about him before, this guy, Jocko Willink, former Navy Seal leadership consultant, multiple New York Times bestsellers, a huge podcast, and he has this motto that says, discipline equals freedom. And he's like, it's a little bit counterintuitive because you think if you're disciplined, then you don't have choice and you can't do things. And his point is, if you are disciplined, you don't have to rely on motivation. And that's what I hear from you and I've heard from other professional writers is being a professional is doing it When you don't feel like it, motivation doesn't matter.

Michael Jamin:

You know what? I'll tell you as well, I post every day on TikTok or at least five or six days a week. I find, and I've talked to other creators who feel the same way. If I take too many days off, it gets harder to get back on. So two is the max, and you got to, because I know people think it's easy to, it's not easy posting on social media. It's like I got to think about what I'm going to say. I got to rehearse it, I got to shoot it, then I got to tag it, upload it, make all the meta tags. I don't do it in two seconds. And yeah, it's like brushing your teeth. You have to do it,

Phil Hudson:

And that's like any habit they say you can mess up once, don't mess up twice. It's like dieting, don't make two bad choices. If you made one, that's okay. Now continue to get back on track, but it's discipline, discipline, discipline. You just need to sit down and do the work because that is what is required. And if you're not willing to do that, this is not the career for you. It might be fun for you to do on your own, but even then I imagine that's going to be pretty brutal if you don't have the discipline and the habit of just sitting down and doing

Michael Jamin:

It. Oh, even if it's a hobby, it'll still be more fun if you know how to do it. I mean, golf is a hobby for most people. The better you get, the more fun it is to play.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, I don't like being bad at things. That's very true. Great. Stephanie Anthony, what are daily writing exercise exercises that are invaluable to helping to build stronger storytelling muscles?

Michael Jamin:

Well, I don't do exercises, but would certainly have. Keeping a journal or a diary and writing it, knowing that no one will read it is very freeing. When I was in high school, I wrote, I had a creative writing class and our assignment was to write daily entries in this journal and we gave it to him at the end of every class and then he would read it and he was always so kind. He always said such nice things about what I wrote. He was looking forward to reading it. I thought that was really nice of him to do. I'm sure it wasn't very good, but I was trying to entertain him and he appreciated it. Yeah, just write and read how those are your exercises. Write and read.

Phil Hudson:

I've talked before about some of my experiences translating for the Sundance Labs and some of the things I got to do with the scholarship I had through Robert Redford and this woman Joan, who runs these workshops at the labs for whether you're a writer, a director, whether you're doing editing, whatever it is, everyone goes through this basic storytelling lab with her, these workshops almost every day. And it's about taking, basically it's what you talk about in your course, mining your life for stories. And I remember that one time I went and she saw me and she recognized me from doing this Redford scholarship stuff, and she was like, it's so good to see you here. And I told her what I was doing and she was introducing everybody in the room and I introduced myself and she was kind enough to say, and Phil is a very talented writer, and I made the mistake of saying, well, that's why I'm here translating. And I've been thinking about that literally today as doing the work and practicing and getting better and then getting acknowledgement from other people is important. The practice of doing it every single day is the exercise. And then I think the other exercise is accepting people's praise when it's earned and deserved.

Michael Jamin:

Take the compliment because you know why it's insulting not to. It insults the person, not if you shit on it, then they gave you a gift

Phil Hudson:

And I did.

Michael Jamin:

I see people do it all the time. You're not the only one. It's normal. You also feel like, well, I'm not good enough.

Phil Hudson:

My thought was like, well, I'm not in the labs, so I'm here translating, but I did it in front of people and I did apologize to her after, and she was very kind and we had a good chat about it, but that was ringing in my head today.

Michael Jamin:

It's hard to take a compliment for a lot, a lot of time I feel the same way. I feel the same way,

Phil Hudson:

But if you say no or you shoot it down, then it's all going to be harder because you're reinforcing unconsciously that you are not good or it isn't good enough

Michael Jamin:

And

Phil Hudson:

You got to take the wins. Take the wins.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, right.

Phil Hudson:

Awesome. A couple of questions related to the topic, and you're online screenwriting course, so they're kind of bundled together, Joel Riedel regarding execution of an idea in a script. How do you know when you've taken a script far enough? In other words, how do you know if it's ready?

Michael Jamin:

Well, kind of the same. I kind of touched on this earlier, but basically give it to someone and take the title sheet off. If so, they don't know you wrote it and then give 'em a week or so to read it. And if they get to page 20 and they ask, they're going to say, what do I know? I'm not a Hollywood director. How do I know if your script is any good? You say, well, no. When you get to 20, do you want to read more? Does it feel like I gave you a gift or a homework assignment? That's it. You don't even, because your reader is your audience, they don't have to be a Hollywood insider to know whether they like something or not. Do they want to turn the page or not? And if they do, it's good. If it's not, if they don't, that's a problem.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, there's levels of that too, because I've written things that I've given to friends and they said this was great and then given 'em to you and you've given me good praise, but solid feedback and things that I could improve, and it's the quality of the feedback is also important, but what I'm hearing you say is regardless of that, if you have a show on tv, whoever's going to sit down and invest their time to watch your story, they need to all understand there's a story here and it's worth the hour of my time, the 27 minutes of my time, whatever it is that they're doing.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, because no one's obligated to watch your show. They'll turn the channel now. So that's how you judge things.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Are you ever at a point when you write things where you feel you've done enough, I'm happy with that one, that one's good to go, or is it always like, I can make that better. I just got to turn it in?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I always feel that way. Even with my book coming out, I always feel like I could have done that a little differently, but it's like, no, you got to let it go. You got to let, but I saw an interview with Frank Geary and he was looking at, I think it was 60 minutes, and he was staring at the Disney Concert Hall, which he designed, and he's a fantastic architect. I think he was with Leslie Stall, and they're admiring his work and she goes, when you see this building and it is one of the most beautiful buildings in la, yeah, it's

Phil Hudson:

Great. It's gorgeous. If you guys have seen Iron Man, I want to say Iron Man one, they go to it,

Michael Jamin:

They do. It's very sculptural. It looks like a piece of sculpture, and she said, when you look at this building, what do you see? He goes, I see all the things I would do differently now, and he's a master, so you just never get past that stage,

Phil Hudson:

But that's not the job of a pro, which is what you teach. The job of a professional is you do the work, you turn it in, you move on.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you move on to something else and make the next one better if you can.

Phil Hudson:

Well, you always do the best you can with the time you have. Is that accurate to say?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That's definitely what with tv, we got to turn on an episode of TV and at the end of the week, so we do the best we can.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Awesome. Camika Hartford in creating a story with structure in mind first, is it ever useful to organically write or figure it out, then go back and pick out the pieces you want to create a solid narrative, or is that just wasted time? This is in regards to Greta Gerwig process. That's a little bit different than most people. That's

Michael Jamin:

A great question, and if you were writing a movie on your own time, sure, you can write it. You don't have time to schedule. You could take four years to write your movie, and if you want to discover it organically and if you understand how to do that, if you understand what that means, it means you have to write and write and then you figure out what the story is. Then once you finally find the story, you can go back and rewrite all the other stuff that's not the story and then fix it. But you still have to understand what story structure is to know what you're fixing. If you were to on a TV show though, you don't have that luxury. You're on staff with a bunch of other writers in a room, and before one word is written, you break the story on the whiteboard and then you outline it. Just don't discovering the story. Everyone agrees on what the story is in the writer's room, so it's a very different process. One is more organic, the other is definitely more efficient.

Phil Hudson:

You said everyone agrees, and I've been in the room, or I've seen people not agree with the showrunner.

Michael Jamin:

When I say everyone agrees, I mean the showrunner agrees. Yeah,

Phil Hudson:

So just for a point of clarification for people, it is not your job to approve every decision in a writer's room, but like you said, when you're writing something for yourself, you have the luxury of doing that. So yeah, fascinating question and answer. Thank you, cam. Gleb, Lin, how can I bring my vision to life through a screenplay?

Michael Jamin:

How can I bring my vision to life? I'm not really sure. Are they asking how do I sell it or

Phil Hudson:

How do I think? What I'm hearing from this question based on the topic is, alright, so I've got this vision for what I want my story to be, and I've chosen screenplay as my medium. How do I get what's in my head on the page

Michael Jamin:

And justice?

Phil Hudson:

You know

Michael Jamin:

What? I saw this short by Wes Anderson last night, God, I can't remember what it was called, damnit, I don't remember what it was called. It was with Ray Fines and Ben Kingsley. It was a half hour long and it was typical Wes Anderson only, it wasn't shot like a movie, it was shot like a stage play, and so the character would talk and behind the character, the sets would move and would fly in this different set. Then he'd pretend to walk and then he'd be in a different set, and it was wonderful to watch. It was so creative, but on paper, it's the most boring thing in the world. There's no magic on paper. You have to see it. So if that's what you want to do, you're going to have to just build that yourself. You're going to have to got a phone, you got a camera, you got friends, make it yourself and don't spend a lot of money. Whatever you think it's going to cost, I guarantee you I can shoot it for much less because it's not about the money. It's always about the words and the more creative you are. I did a bunch of commercials that I wrote for,

Phil Hudson:

It's just about to talk about, were

Michael Jamin:

You going to say that?

Phil Hudson:

I was, yeah.

Michael Jamin:

For Twirly Girl, my wife had a company called Twirly Girl, and we shot all these commercials and I wrote and produced them and I hired a bunch of high school kids to shoot it as my crew and the sets, I built the sets out of cardboard, literally I got cardboard boxes and I built everything. And the fact that it was made out of a cardboard made it funnier. It made it silly,

Phil Hudson:

But tonally on point too because it's a children's clothing line, right? Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

But it was magical, but it had the same, Wes Anderson has that same kind of magical thing about him. It doesn't exist so cool about it.

Phil Hudson:

For those of you who haven't seen them, are those published anywhere? Are they on Twirly Girl YouTube? I know we have in your Vimeo account. I've seen them.

Michael Jamin:

I know there, I mean, I think you could see some of them. If you go to twirly girl shop.com,

Phil Hudson:

Would you ever want those published on your site just as examples?

Michael Jamin:

We can do that. Do you think someone is interested? We should put some there.

Phil Hudson:

Why don't you guys, if you guys are listening to this, just go comment on Instagram and just put hashtag twirly girl in the comments, and so we know if you guys want to see 'em, we can load 'em up on your side. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

We can make a page for that, but it's probably a good idea, Phil. I think it should be inspiring. Each of those commercials, they're about three to five minutes long, whatever. Maybe they're five minutes, but I cut 'em down to three and each one costs, the first one I think was 1200 bucks. You can do it cheap. You can do it cheap.

Phil Hudson:

My business partner Rich, he was one of my professors in film school, actually he's teaching at Grand Canyon University in Arizona. He's teaching film right now. And so for the final project last semester, he had them shoot a video, basically that kind of commercial for pickleball brand. And the thing looks incredible. There's amazing camera, there's crane movement, there's drones, it looks good, and $128.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Oh, that's great. That's great.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, it looks like it was 10 grand. Now there's, it got to perform as an ad. I dunno, but the quality was definitely there and what I'm getting to is when you talk about getting your vision to life, it is the job of the writer. It is the job of the writer to get the vision on the page so that anyone who reads it can see that vision. But it is the director's job to take that and work with the art department and everyone else to expand it. Or in tv, the writer is typically the showrunner. That showrunner has that same capacity to get the vision made beyond doing it yourself. I think the other piece of advice that I might give would be you need to understand your craft. You need to understand what a screenplay looks like, and your formatting and your own style and tone are going to influence your ability to do that on the page. If you're not going to produce your own stuff, and I don't mean that to counter what or contrast with what you're saying, it's just the person who's not going to go shoot those things. If you're just talking about it from a writer's perspective, you got to have your story there. The structure has to be sound, and then you need to be able to use the words and the style and format of screenwriting to get the job done to convey that vision.

Michael Jamin:

And as you were talking, I forgot to tell you this morning on TikTok, someone tagged me and they said they're in law school and that they're taking an entertainment law class and their professor assigned them to watch my channel.

Phil Hudson:

That's awesome. Why?

Michael Jamin:

I don't know why. What a weird homework assignment.

Phil Hudson:

Love it. Love it. Maybe he's going to just call out all the things that you could be sued for. Yeah, maybe. That's wild, man. The world's shifted in the Michael Jamin sphere over here. You got Michael's got his own Wikipedia page too. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

I'm on Kpia. Yeah,

Phil Hudson:

A couple of years ago you would've never wanted any of this attention, right?

Michael Jamin:

No, I still struggle with it a little bit. I still struggle

Phil Hudson:

Just highlighting that for everybody here who's struggling to put their stuff out there, what a lot of these questions are about, you wanted to do something, just publish this book and you said, what do I need to make that happen? It's been over two years in that process. And your book will be coming out pretty soon.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, we'll do a special episode on that. But yeah, when I'm yelling at you guys to build the damn mountain to build it yourself, I just want you to know everything I recommend, either I have done or I'm currently doing, so I'm not talking out of my ass. So

Phil Hudson:

Zero hypocrisy here with the recommendations and I will defend you on that because I see it happening. Yeah. Alright. Sucks to suck has a question. Great. Great. Username story build finding, planning the path of the characters. This is a statement, it's not a question, but when you're story building, how do you find or plan the path for your characters? What are their arcs?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I mean, that's something I teach in my course, my screenwriting course. Come sign up michael jammin.com/course, but that's not a 32nd answer. That's a 14 hour course. So yeah, come to my webinars. I did a webinar a couple weeks ago where I literally gave away part of the course. Not a lot of it, just a small part of it.

Phil Hudson:

I was surprised. It's a lot though. It's a lot of nuggets in there of,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff in that. I was like, I kind of felt like, guys, if you don't hit the whole thing, you're missing out because this is pretty good stuff.

Phil Hudson:

What was that? How professional writers create great characters? Is that

Michael Jamin:

What it meant? No, it was, I don't know. It was not. It might've been getting past writer's block or what was the one

Phil Hudson:

After that? Both of those are pretty good, and I think you've given a lot of new context and a lot of context in there for that. I think it was a great characters was one specifically on this subject, and you talk about this, I don't want to spoil it for people who are going to miss it, but you talk about the principle of how to put the right character in a story and it is worth watching. I don't want to steal the opportunity for you to learn that lesson by listening to Michael.

Michael Jamin:

Come to my talk on characters that it'll help you a lot and it's free.

Phil Hudson:

Awesome. Sammy Cisneros, how strict should we follow conventional story structure?

Michael Jamin:

I would say don't break the rules until you understand them. So I would say very strict, and just so you know, I don't break the rules and I've been doing it for a long time. If it ain't broke, why fix it? Honestly, once you're in that story structure, there's still so much creative freedom that you can have once you understand, it's not like I don't feel handcuffed when I'm writing a story that way. I feel liberated. I understand how to do it. There's the roadmap that'll help.

Phil Hudson:

You discussed this principle of Picasso in your free lesson, which I think everyone should go pick up or rewatch if you've signed up for it in the past, but you talk about what it means to become a master and it's visually apparent when you look at the way you display that in that lesson.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, go watch. Yeah, that was in the free lesson,

Phil Hudson:

Michael jamon.com/free.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, go watch that. That'll help.

Phil Hudson:

Great. Leoni Bennett, when breaking a story, do you keep track of both plot and story?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's all yes, all yes. And if you don't know what that means, there's a difference between plot and story, and I talk about this in I think the free lesson, but yeah, you have to keep both in mind. You don't do one without the other. It's the same time. You can have a plot if you have a good plot, but no story. You got nothing. If you've got a good story but no plot, you also have nothing. So you need both.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, I think lesson two in the course is heavily dedicated to this, and you do touch on it on the free one, but second year in the course and you get to lesson two, it's like, oh, okay, this makes a lot more sense. And I've always said this since we started the podcast and doing this stuff together. You're the only writer I know online who talks about story and not plot everyone else's. What are your plot points? What is this plot? What is this beat? How does this beat build to this? What is your inciting incident to this thing? To crossing the threshold to the Boone? And they're mixing all this jargon from all of it's youngian, it's Joseph Campbell. It's like all this stuff. It's very hard to even wrap your head around. And I'm egotistically. I consider myself to be a pretty intelligent person who's capable of learning. And very often when I started studying screenwriting, I was just beating my head against the wall because it's like I don't even understand what subtext is, and you're telling me to use it, but no one's teaching how to use subtext, which you talk about, but it's that. Yeah, it's the story. It's story, story, story. And then the plot is, to me, it is the painting of the story. It's what makes the story matter.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I watched a movie the other day and there was plenty of plot. Things were moving along, things were clipping, things were happening, but the whole time I'm like, so what? Who cares? Why do I, this is so who cares? And so the story is really the who cares part. Why should

Phil Hudson:

Write that down? Write

Michael Jamin:

That down. Yeah, write that down. It's the who cares. It's what to me as the viewer or the listener or the reader, it's all the same. Why do I care what happens to the main character? And if you don't, I won't say it on camera, I won't say which one it was, but it was a big movie, big budget, big director who's done some great stuff. You should

Phil Hudson:

Just text me so I know what it

Michael Jamin:

Is. I'll tell you later, but I was like, who cares? Why do I care about any of this?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Dave Crossman, who is pretty active in the course we've talked about before. He has said that I have a coined phrase now when I read someone's script. It's a lot of things happen, a lot of people doing things and nothing's happening.

Michael Jamin:

Okay, yeah,

Phil Hudson:

That's good. Lots of stuff. Just

Michael Jamin:

Plot is so boring.

Phil Hudson:

Cool. Yeah. Alright. David Campbell, how do we determine which contestants, which content to reveal in what order?

Michael Jamin:

Oh yeah. I have a whole analogy that I go through in one of my free webinars about the order in which you unpack the details of your story is really important, and that's what I teach in the course. But for sure, yeah, a lot of times you'll read new writers and they just do a dump. They just dump everything out. But that's not how you tell a story. The story is like you as the author, you get to decide when your reader learns this, and that's how you keep people turning the page.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I have bought a lot of self-published books from friends and people I went to film school with and some are good and some are like, wow, what you just put in a chapter could have been a whole book and you ended this chapter in a place that makes zero sense. And it's because of the way they're laying out the story. They have so much they want to say they're just rushing through it or they have so little they want to say it's dragging on. And to me, I think that's what we're talking about, story structure. If you understand structure, then the artistic way you unfold that sort of unravel that story is your craft and your voice and that the person who comes to mind for me is Guy Richie. I think Guy Richie does that masterfully in his stories.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I'm working on a story right now, which I'm writing, and there's one of two ways I want to write it. And so I'm not sure which way I'm supposed to do it, but I'll choose one and I'll go down that path and if I find it halfway through, it doesn't work, I'll go back and do the other way.

Phil Hudson:

So you're saying you're not married to the words you wrote. They're not precious written in stone and can never be changed.

Michael Jamin:

No. It's all about, yeah, exactly. I've tossed out so many stories that weren't working, but I am always thinking about what's the best way to compel the reader to turn the page.

Phil Hudson:

High level note there, guys, write that one down too. Write

Michael Jamin:

It down.

Phil Hudson:

Paul Gomez, seven 90 Should a story center around subject or a character, is there a different approach for each? What I'm hearing with this question is should I focus on theme or character when I write my story?

Michael Jamin:

Honestly, I think you focus on a character and then theme comes a little bit later, but I've seen some movies, the very interesting setting, very interesting subject matter, very interesting. But because I don't care about what the character wants and I'm not invested in the character, I was very unsatisfied with the movie, even though the subject matter was really interesting.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Previous podcast episode we've done, we talked about basically picking a word. There's a word that's going to color my story then to me is theme. What is the theme of this that might help shape the character that I'm telling to convey that theme, but the character has to matter or it doesn't matter what the theme is.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. When my partner and I are writing, often we pretend there's a drinking game. That theme will keep on appearing, and often you'll see a word recurring over and over in a script, and we always will drink, drink, and then when we're done, we go back and change those words. So it's not so obvious we disguise it. But if you're doing it right, that theme will reappear many times and throughout your script, but you just have to hide it a little better.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff. Guys. I know some of you are advanced enough to know how much gold Michael's just dumping his pockets right now. Just gold nuggets. For those of you who are newer, this is worth re-listening to so that you can pick up that gold. This is stuff that will shape you, and I would come back and listen to this one six months from now because you're going to be a different place as a writer at different things. I've definitely seen that even just listening to our podcast with questions I've asked you. The answer is that I got two years ago apply very differently to me. Now. I'm a father of two kids now I am dealing with all these other different life issues than I was two years ago, and that affects the way I tell my stories and what things I want to talk about.

Michael Jamin:

And I'm still learning, guys, just, I mean, you're never done learning when you're writing, so I don't know everything. I just pretend to

Phil Hudson:

More than he gives himself credit for, but he's going to take credit like we talked about, right?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michael jamon.com/and now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?

Phil Hudson:

Alright, is that my voice asks the beats? Is that what we are referencing here when we talk about story structure are the beats?

Michael Jamin:

The question is what? What's

Phil Hudson:

The question? Yeah, so the context of this is from the webinar, how to write a great story. And when you're asking the question, what is a story or what is story structure? They're asking, are you referencing beats? Is that what you mean when you say story structure? They're

Michael Jamin:

Beats, so they're about seven or eight beats in every story, and it doesn't matter whether you're writing a half hour, an hour and a half feature, whatever that you must hit, in my opinion, in order for a story to feel fulfilling. And so those are the beats I talk about. And one is at the bottom of act one, bottom of act two, these are all important beats and I teach that. But yeah, and there's still some creativity you can have. Well, a lot of creativity you can have once those beats.

Phil Hudson:

I want to highlight something because I know you don't read any of the other advice that people are giving. And again, a lot of these people are not riders. In my intro to storytelling class, which is writing 1 0 1 in college, my professor asked this question, how many beats, beats are in this thing? And he'd have us watch a movie and count the number of beats. And then he put up this image on the board and it was 40 beats. And he says that every feature should have about 40 beats. Now, that's the difference between sequences and beats, and you already can tell this is again very confusing, right? But this is the formulaic approach that is very confusing and shackling to people who are starting out and what you're saying, I don't want people to misconstrue what you're saying by saying there should only be eight moments in a script or eight scenes, but he was describing scenes as beats and how you progress through things. And that comes from a book, and I can't remember which book, but it lays that out.

Michael Jamin:

That's just too many. How are you going to keep all that in your head? I feel like eight is manageable. Eight not eight scenes, but eight moments that you have to hit. And then it just like when you go from A to B2C to D, you can take a little side trip from A to B, but you still got to get to B.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. And I think that USC and UCLA, I think they use what they call eight beat story structure, which mirrors pretty close to what you teach, but you'd expect that because they're proper film schools taught by professional writers, directors, producers, editors who are just doing that now because they've moved out of their first career. So yeah, I just want to make sure people are not misconstruing the two or conflating 'em. NRS creates How can a series pilot with more than eight main characters work without story overload?

Michael Jamin:

You wouldn't want to have that many go back and watch some of these old pilots or any pilot even towards whatever season five or eight. They may introduce a lot of new characters, but in the pilot, how many characters were in the pilot? And if it's a sitcom, you're talking probably five or six. It's if an hour long, you're going to have a few more. You might be eight, but you should be able to service eight characters in an hour long story. So it shouldn't be a problem. It's when you start growing the cast, it gets more complicated.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, I think lost is a great example of this. Tons of people, plane crash, there's mayhem happening all around you, and we're looking at four or five people. And then as the series goes along, they introduce more people and the stories become more complex and there's side things happening. But in the pilot, which is two hours, I think JJ Abrams and Damon Lindelof did that masterfully.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, great pilot.

Phil Hudson:

Richard Monroy, life, death Rebirth. These themes are found in art. How can this be applied to screenwriting?

Michael Jamin:

Well, I mean, what else are you going to write about when you're going to write about all events that happen to you in life? Jealousy, anger, love, betrayal, vengeance, whatever. That's what you're going to write about. So you're going to you life mirrors art and art mirrors life.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I think that ties back to our theme as well, right? You pick your theme and then that's the thing you're deciding to talk about, and then your characters and the story and the plot all play to paint that picture. Yeah. David Campbell, another question here. Do you have to write a log line for every episode or story?

Michael Jamin:

Yes. One of the things, when my partner and I run a TV show, what we make all the writers do, including ourselves, is we write after the story is broken on the whiteboard and one writer is chosen or a team is chosen to write that script, the first thing they got to do is write what we call a book report, which is a one page summary of what we just discussed in the writer's room for past week. And this is not as easy as it looks. We need to make sure everyone's on the, were you paying attention? Did you understand what we finally agreed to? And at the top of that book report, we make them write a log line. What is it about? What is this episode about? And it's amazing how that one simple thing can really, really be beneficial. I never assume anyone understands what it's about.

And sometimes I tell a story that a couple of years ago, I think it was on Tacoma, my partner and I were writing an episode, we're writing the outline and we're figuring out these scenes. We start arguing over what the scene should be. And I was like, I'm right. And he's like, he's right. And I'm like, wait a minute, what do you think the story's about? And we didn't agree on what the story was about. We literally didn't agree. So we stopped and went back to the whiteboard to figure out what the story was about. Even though we had spent a week working on it, we couldn't agree.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, that's how much it matters. I don't know that there's anything to add to that. That's great. Henry Wind, as an audience member, I'm really trying to catch the details and the dialogue so I can understand what is happening in this scene between two actors. How do you deepen subtext?

Michael Jamin:

Well, characters often don't say what they're actually thinking. And so that's the difference between writing directly and writing indirectly. And again, I talk about this in the course to greater detail, but writing directly is, I'm really mad at you. You hurt my feelings. The other day when you said this about that's writing directly, writing indirectly might be just me ignoring you or me telling you that your hat is stupid. So you know what I'm saying? Who cares about your hat? I'm really mad about you for what you did. And so that's the difference. And the more indirect you can write your writing, the better the smarter it seems.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, it's amazing how this is human nature though. Just last night, my daughter, she just turned three, and so she's throwing a little bit of the terrible three tantrums. I've heard terrible twos, but it's really the threes is what every parent says. And she wanted to do something and we said, no, it's time for bed. And so her lovey, her stuffy Is Cob the Cow? And she's like, I don't want cob in my bed. And my wife who's wonderful, says, just because you're mad at us doesn't mean you should take it out on other people. And she said, okay. And then she cuddled her little stuffed animal, but it's human nature to do this. She didn't say, I'm mad at you. She's like, I don't want COB in here. I don't want to sing songs. I don't want to read a book. She's mad at

Michael Jamin:

Me. She's writing indirectly. She's a writer.

Phil Hudson:

Yep. She's human nature. The beautiful things you learn from kids, man. All right. Moving on to breaking in the Broken Breaking Seas. That's an apt name. Can you talk about working with a writing partner a bit? I'm very curious what that process is like.

Michael Jamin:

Well, it's sort of a marriage and you get to decide who you want to marry. I've been working with my partner Seaver for close to 30 years. And at this point there's a lot of trust and there's a lot of, we try to argue as little as possible. The truth is I don't really care if it's his idea or my idea. I really don't. If it's his idea, great. That's one less idea I have to come up with. It's not about my ego and it's really about what's best for the work. And then great. I mean, it helps to have one, it helps have one bounce idea. We can bounce ideas off each other and often he'll shoot down my idea, say whatever. I don't really care. It's really about getting the work done.

Phil Hudson:

We did a whole episode about writing with partners on the podcast, so go check that out as well.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Alright, moving on to miscellaneous questions. We got about 10 left, Michael, does that sound good? Sure. We hit those in the next 17 minutes and wrap this up in an hour. Sounds great. Lisa J. Robinson, for a beginning writer, what program do you recommend to write a script that is very user-friendly? Imagine that

Michael Jamin:

Right

Phil Hudson:

In my mouth. Didn't even know, didn't even know Michael. This question in October would serving today. So

Michael Jamin:

Every single television show, movie, everything I've sold, every single one of them have been written in a program called Final Draft. And that is considered to be the industry standard now. So it's the best as far as I'm concerned. Now. They offered me a brand deal a couple months ago, and so I've since done some spots for them and I had no problem doing it because it's not like it's a product that I have. I use the product, so Sure.

Phil Hudson:

And you've turned down so many deals from people with different writing software. Even when we first started doing this, people were reaching out. It's like, Hey, we'd love to pay you to talk about our screenwriting software, and you turn them all down.

Michael Jamin:

No. So this

Phil Hudson:

Is a big

Michael Jamin:

Deal, but if you want to use Final Draft, we do have, they gave me a brand deal, so if get on my newsletter, we said, well, there'll be a link on my newsletter and you can click on that link and you can get a discount 25% off on final

Phil Hudson:

Draft. Do you want to give them the code? Do you want to

Michael Jamin:

Give the I think so we could do the code. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

It's M jamming 25 I think, right?

Michael Jamin:

24 I think.

Phil Hudson:

Correct. For it's 24 M jamming 24, but it gives you 25% off your purchase. And I used it and it worked on my upgrade from vinyl draft 12. So you saved me 25 bucks on something I was going to buy anyway.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you can upgrade. You can upgrade at some point you have to continue, you got to upgrade your, so it doesn't fall out of surface and

Phil Hudson:

And there's new stuff that come in. There's all kinds of stuff that comes

Michael Jamin:

That, yeah, there's bells and whistles, but honestly I've been using Final draft since final draft five. They don't update it every day, every couple of years they improve it.

Phil Hudson:

We used a final draft for the collaboration mode in the writer's room.

Michael Jamin:

The collaboration is a good feature.

Phil Hudson:

And while I was doing this yesterday, this is totally unprompted, I was looking for this. You sent me a bunch of stuff and in 2016, just as I was going to move out here, you were asking me for my resume, like, Hey, there's somebody out here who was interested in getting your resume. And I sent it over and you told me in here, and I'm trying to find the exact words, but it was basically study final draft and know it like the back of your hand. And that was 2016, so that you've been preaching this for a long time.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it helps to know that program. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Great. Alright, Mimi, how to find the main idea from a lot of ideas you have in your book. So I'm assuming she's writing a book and she wants to know what the main idea. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

You better figure that out because your story needs to be about one thing everyone wants to throw in the kitchen sink. And it's about this, but it's also about this, but it also has elements of this. It's like, no, no, no, you don't know what your story is. You got a hot mess. You can't kitchen sink it. Your story's about one thing. And if you think it's about two things, congratulations. Now you have a sequel or you have another episode, but your story's about one thing. And if you think I'm making it up, read stories that you've enjoyed and ask yourself the same question. What is this about?

Phil Hudson:

What's the difference between an A plot B plot C plot though, if it's only about one thing,

Michael Jamin:

Right? So an APL will occupy two or three characters, and that's a story that has the most emotional weight, and that's the one that has the most time on screen. You

Phil Hudson:

Have, it's usually the leads too though, right? It's your main character.

Michael Jamin:

But if you have five leads on your show, then two of them will be in the A story. And then you have to occupy your other characters. So you give them a B story and maybe a C story if you still have to occupy some of them. But they don't carry as much emotional weight often they're just lighter.

Phil Hudson:

You don't want 'em sitting in their trailers cashing a check, right?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you got to pay these people. The audience wants to see them too. So you want to give the audience what they want.

Phil Hudson:

Great mental pictures. Love to know an example of a log line on a whiteboard in the writer's room.

Michael Jamin:

So a log line might be, okay, we wrote an episode called Fire Choir, and I think the log line was Eddie joins a male

Phil Hudson:

Choir acapella group. It was like firefighters, acapella choir

Michael Jamin:

To basically recapture the lost fame of his youth. It was something like that. So you knew what the plot was and you also knew what the story was. Oh, he's there to recapture his law. He was famous, whatever. He was in a garage band when he was a kid, and here's the chance to feel like a star again. So that's what it's really about. It's about the fame part

Phil Hudson:

And a great episode with one of our favorite characters. Wolf Boykins

Michael Jamin:

Wolf. Yes. So played by Paul Soder.

Phil Hudson:

Paul Soder says, hi, by the way. Oh, you should have him on the podcast.

Michael Jamin:

I should. I'll get him on. That's a good question. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Richard Monroy, can you describe this Greta Gerwig style in more detail? It seems more unstructured and organic.

Michael Jamin:

It's not unstructured, it's just the fact that it's definitely not unstructured. It's just that how she comes about finding the structure. So I believe she still hits the same eight points that I'm talking about, but whereas in TV or even in movies, for the most part, you'll think about this before you're ever writing a word. You're figuring out what those story points are. And you might spend weeks or months if it's a movie before you're actually writing. But she doesn't do it that way. But she's Greta Gerwig until you become her, you may want to rethink how you do this, but what she does is she starts writing, oh, I think this is what it's about. And she starts typing the script and she'll say the same thing. I've heard her talk about it. Alright, now I have an 800 page script. Well, we can't shoot an 800 page script. Now she has to go back and throw out 700 pages and figure out what the story is. So it's very inefficient, but it's organic. But again, she can do it. She knows what story is. And by the way, that movie made a billion dollars. It's not for me to say that she's doing it wrong, she's doing it right. It's just that it's just inefficient. And unless you really have a good grasp upon what story structure is like she does, you're probably going to screw it up.

Phil Hudson:

This just popped into my mind, one of the best tiktoks I've ever seen was this story. And you've seen 'em before. And it's like everyone told me that I was a loser and I would never make it as an artist. And over the years I've practiced and honed my craft and it shows all these different art. You see their art evolving year over year, and now here I am and look what I've done. And then they show the worst drawing of a horse you've ever seen. And it brought me to tears because mocking this thing, which is the reality, is you can't be a one year in rider or a four year in rider and think that you can write the way someone's been running for 20 years will, you also can't do it, but think you're going to paint or draw the way in one year or two years. The way that Picasso or Van Gogh or anybody else has done who's devoted their life to that craft. It's effectively, I'm hearing you say, is she's earned the right to do things her way and it shows in the box office, and that is not an excuse for you to do it that way, and that's not to say you won't do it that way, but you have to learn structure and process and all of those things form light balance. You have to learn those things before you can make art

Michael Jamin:

And it's not easy for her. I saw an interview where she was saying, look, every time I sit down, I'm like, I don't know how to do this it, you're starting from scratch. I feel the same way. It's like, ah, I don't really know how to do this. I do, but I still feel like I don't, it's hard.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Yep. I saw that interview too. And that's going back to what we talked about earlier. That's the discipline. It's hard, but she sits down and does it and then she's able to get billion box office

Michael Jamin:

And sometimes I'm writing, I'm like, am I saying too much or am I saying too little? Am I taking my audience? Am I insulting their intelligence by saying too much or am I taking their intelligence for granted? That's a hard question.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. EG wants to know what if the notes you receive from the higher ups make the story worse?

Michael Jamin:

Often it does. Your goal is to try to give them what they want without making the story too much worse. And what can I tell you? Sometimes they're not writers so often that's the give and take. Often you'll argue with them, you're almost never going to win the argument, and so you have to give them what they want. They're the buyer. And so sometimes people say, sometimes it makes it better too, but people often say, why does TV suck? Well, there's a lot of people involved and a lot of people have opinions and they all want to be heard. I've worked with actors who've had notes who make the story worse. What are you going to do? That's the job. It's it's life.

Phil Hudson:

I've talked about this documentary before, but showrunners, which you can find it in a bunch of places, they talk about an interview, a pretty well known actor. I'm blanking on his name, but he talks about how at a certain point, the first year, the showrunner, it's the showrunner story. The second year, it's the showrunner story, the third year, it's kind of a balance between the actors and the showrunner, and then the fourth, it's kind of the actors because they are the characters. And his whole opinion here was, I think famously he got an argument and a heated battle with the showrunner who created the show, and the showrunner got fired because he was the star of the show. And he said, it's my job to protect my character because that's me and who I'm playing. And I was like, yeah, that's just the reality of this. It's none of it's yours.

Michael Jamin:

You can't, the funny thing is, yeah, the showrunner hires all the actors. It's their show. They sold it, they created it, but at some point, if there's an argument between the actor, the star and the showrunner, you can always get a new showrunner. The star is on camera, and so the star is going to win that fight nine times out of 10.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Pretty interesting. Go check that out guys. Yeah. Richard Roy asks, if you're an independent writer, do you ever reveal what you're working on in early stages?

Michael Jamin:

Some people tell you no. I mean, some people will say, don't reveal your dreams to anybody because people will tell you how stupid it is for you to dream. So why keep it to yourself? That's a personal choice whether you want to share it or not.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. My opinion is screw the haters.

Michael Jamin:

Screw the haters. But also, I mean, you can also put it out there and maybe they hold you accountable. Well, now that I went on record saying I'm going to do this, I better do it

Phil Hudson:

For a lot of people, a lot of people, that's some strong accountability saying, I'm going to do something. Eagle Boy, 7 1 0 9 0. How strict should we expect prospective studios to be about the page length of a historical drama limited series? I've seen some episode ones that are nearly 80 pages for an hour long show.

Michael Jamin:

Listen, the question is who do you think you are? I mean, when you write your script, your script is a writing sample and that's it. Stop thinking about what I'm going to sell it for, how much money I'm going to make. Some people ask me, how much money can you make as a first? Now you're spending the money. Your job first is to write a great script. That's it. One episode. Don't worry about episode 12, writing that one first. Great script is damn hard enough. And it's a calling card. And it's a writing sample. So some of these questions are for people like me, this is a question I might ask a fellow showrunner. I might ask them that question because we are doing, this is stuff that we have to worry about, but you don't have to worry about this.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Big note there too, that this is the big takeaway I've gotten from doing this work with you over the podcast is everything is a writing sample. If it sells, great. If it's good enough to sell, great. But right now, I need to be good enough to give me a job.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, get me a job.

Phil Hudson:

Yep. Matt Sharpe, with the changes to TV writing rooms during the pandemic, do you see Zoom rooms still being a thing post the WGA strike? More to the point, do you still have to live in LA to write in tv?

Michael Jamin:

A lot of these rooms are still on Zoom. That's probably going to go the way at some point. I don't know. Maybe it's going to get back in person probably sooner than later, but someone made that point. I was going to do a TikTok on social media. What are you talking about? Everything's on Zoom. Okay. But how do you get the job? How do you get the job so that you can be on a show that's on Zoom. Tell me how you do that. Unless you live in la, there's no answer for that because you have to live in la. Sorry. There's a handful of screenwriters who work mostly in features who get to live other places. Maybe they have to fly to LA or maybe they live in New York. I follow Julia York from New York. She lives in York or Yorks, but she's in New York and she's able to make a living out of it somehow, but it's definitely harder. You made a hard career. You're making a hard career. Harder.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Tacoma FD is now streaming on Netflix, so everybody go watch

Michael Jamin:

That. Go watch that

Phil Hudson:

Talk. Tacoma fd, which is the companion podcast that Kevin and Steve the showrunners do that dropped. And in episode four, I actually was in the cold open and I got put in the cold open. They talk about it on Sarco fna. It was very kind of them to mock me a little bit and poke fun. But what they said is basically what you have said to me all along is if you want to make it in Hollywood, you have to be in LA because they need you Now. It's not two a week from now. And evidence of this is I got cast in the cold open because the actor tested positive for Covid that day. And they said, well, this is a guy protesting pornography, and Phil is a religious dude. Let's get him out here. And then they were like, he came out and he gave this tirade of just Christian anti pornographic stuff. It's like he'd rehearsed it, you could tell. And it was like I'd done acting classes with Jill and with Cynthia. I've done prep work. I've been on set. I've seen how it's done, and I was just able to go and perform in this moment because of all of that prep work. And I only got it because I was on set standing next to the showrunner when he heard that this guy got covid.

Michael Jamin:

So two things, half of life is about showing up and two, but also being prepared for your

Phil Hudson:

Could imagine, because you could have choked shot the bed. Imagine you could choked shot the bed. And to be fair, I'd been in three other things. I'd been on Tacoma twice as background with no lines, and then they put me on the spot and made me the butt of a joke in the movie quasi. And that was not something I knew about, but they shot three other people just in case, and they picked the funniest person. I just happened to be the funniest person. So had I not done that, I would've not been given this hat back. But they called me in and I pinch hit and I swung and they said I nailed it. Right?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It was funny. I was there. I got a huge laugh at the premiere. You're

Phil Hudson:

Scene. So yeah, I had no idea. But the point I'm trying to make is you have to be here and then that's how that stuff comes. If you're not, look, it's not going to happen.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Aaron Vaughn Busick looking to develop my understanding of the process of landing the ending of a limited series.

Michael Jamin:

Wait a minute, hold on. You mean you got a show picked up to series and you want to know how to wrap it up? Is that what the question is?

Phil Hudson:

I think the question is, I'm writing a limited series and I'm going to write the whole thing and I don't know how to end it.

Michael Jamin:

Don't worry about it. Can you write a great pilot? And then when they bring it to series, they'll hire people like me and we'll figure it out in the room. Don't worry about it. You're not selling your limited series, you're writing a writing sample.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, I think, again, go back and listen to it. I think it was episode 32 or 34 fractals, which we've talked about recently where you talk about how this all kind of mirrors things and then learn story structure and man, I can't imagine writing something without knowing the ending. That seems incredibly

Michael Jamin:

Painful, but that's four years. I dunno how long his series is, but I wouldn't know how to end it.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Rick Bean, I've been watching Star Trek, Voyager Lost in Space, et cetera. I do stories that take place in space get leniency because they take place in space.

Michael Jamin:

I don't think so. If it's boring, it's boring. What difference? When these chefs take face in space, it just means the set is a spaceship, right? So what if it was a boat? Same thing. Is it that much of a difference? No. Is

Phil Hudson:

Hamlet on the Holodeck? This is a required book from one of my digital media classes, and it talks about basically the future of narrative in cyberspace, and it's basically just saying it's a medium. The story still has to be there. It's Hamlet on the holodeck. It's not whatever on the holodeck.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. So

Phil Hudson:

Story, story, story, story. Richard Monroy. Again, a lot of movies and TV shows are based on franchises and ips that want to sell product. Is it the screenwriter's job to include ad placement in the script?

Michael Jamin:

No, and I disagree that I disagree with that contention. I've never worked on a show where we got a note where, Hey, we're selling products. That's never, no,

Phil Hudson:

That's a production thing. It's after. It's like I've seen it in the production office where it's like, okay, the call just came in transpo picking up some Acura's, and we got to feature those in this week's episode because the sales guys in the corporate side are doing

Michael Jamin:

That fine. Throw in the background. I don't think about it at all. And Barbie, when that movie Mattel, to their great credit, I bet they saw a lot of Barbies after that, but it was never an infomercial for Barbie. I mean, Greta Gerber got to write it her way, and much of it was anti Barbie.

Phil Hudson:

Well, that's a whole thing going on right now. They came out with women in cinema film and TV Barbie set, and now a bunch of people are like, Hey, you missed the mark here, Barbie, you missed the mark.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, they're always going to try to figure out ways to make money, but to me it's never about the product placement. It's always about the story. And if they want to find, you want to throw Pepsi in the background, I don't care.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Fire department coffee is one of those sponsors we have on the show and because it fits in the firehouse and that's who they're selling to, our firefighters who watched the show, and that's something that was worked out well after. We're not writing episodes about fire department coffee. Right, Rob?

Michael Jamin:

Because that's not entertaining people. People are not going to be entertaining. People would turn off the show if that were the case.

Phil Hudson:

Yep, yep. And you see it too. I see it a lot on broadcast TV where it's like, oh, we have to use this feature in the new Toyota to get to where we're going. And it's like, look at us talk and the camera sweeps there and it's so distracting.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you're not fooling anybody, so no,

Phil Hudson:

It's like we know what's going on. As you've always said, we got to sell more toilet paper.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I jokingly say that. Yeah, we're here to sell toilet paper, but we don't literally have toilet paper on their show.

Phil Hudson:

Rob Gully, how does David Mamet tell a good story when most of his plays are just people talking?

Michael Jamin:

Well, but it's not just people talking, it's things happening. But anytime you have a stage play, it's not just people talking. Things have to happen. Things have to develop. A character walks on with new information, changes a dynamic. It's not just people talking and that's the problem that people mistake. They think it's just people talking.

Phil Hudson:

I've got his bio over here that I read, and it's worth checking out if you think that's what's going. Yeah, you got

Michael Jamin:

A good library over there.

Phil Hudson:

It's not, yeah, I'm a hoarder. I think that's the problem. Thanks dad. Dad gave me those tendencies. Yeah, as Jim, I would say money in the bank, right?

Michael Jamin:

Money in the bank.

Phil Hudson:

My trauma. My trauma is my money. I lots of checks. Yeah, my hoarding tendencies for my father

Michael Jamin:

For sure.

Phil Hudson:

Is there a percentage to follow for dialogue or scene description while writing a script? What percentage should be what?

Michael Jamin:

Well just know that no one likes reading action lines. No one. People often glance over that. I've heard. It's so funny, I happen to just catch another screenwriter say the same exact thing. No one wants to read it. So that's why if you write your script and you could describe a card chase, okay, no one read it because the dialogue is what you want to read. So on paper, it's going to be really boring if you focus on that. If you're going to shoot your movie or your short or whatever, fine. Do it any way you want to do it, but just know you're, if you want it as a writing sample, no one's going to be impressed with your action lines. No one's going to read it.

Phil Hudson:

Anyone who's ever done pros before and is getting into screenwriting, which is me, you start off by describing the room and what's in the room. It's almost like a DD Dungeon master, so unnecessary. It's more confusing. It's the brevity of your style is what will help with this. And that's why I said you need to understand the craft. You need to understand structure, but you need to understand your format and

Michael Jamin:

Your style. I literally keep action lines like that as short as possible. When we're writing, if we have four words, we try to get it down to three. I mean, because it's literally shorter as better. No one wants to read it.

Phil Hudson:

You don't want big blocks of text. And I think Drive is a great script to check out. He barely talks

Michael Jamin:

In it,

Phil Hudson:

But masterfully done, but he wrote it, directed it. He did the whole thing. It was effectively he was being paid to make his own short film because he'd earned it in the age of streaming. The last question, by the way, just Mason May in the age of streaming and new media, how has the new WGA deal changed the writer's room process?

Michael Jamin:

I don't think it's changed the writer's room process, but there's some minimums in place in terms of the staff size and the staff makeup in the term, the employment terms. But we'll see how that unfolds. I haven't been on a show since the strike ended, so we'll see literally what that means. But yeah, too soon to say.

Phil Hudson:

Awesome. Michael, anything you want to add to that one? It's a pretty robust long q and a.

Michael Jamin:

Thank you. Yeah, it was. Thank you all for all the questions. Please keep coming to those webinars. You'll get a lot out of it. And thank you for listening.

Phil Hudson:

Michael, anything we want to talk about coming up with the book coming up?

Michael Jamin:

We got stuff coming up. Phil, my book is dropping very soon, a paper orchestra. I don't know when this episode's going to air may already be out. No, probably not. Probably not. But it's coming to soon. If you want to learn more about my book, go to michael jamin.com/book and sign up and it'll be a great read. It's called The Paper Orchestra, and we're going to do a whole podcast episode. We're going to talk about that coming up next, I think.

Phil Hudson:

Yep. So we've got that. You've got your course, which we've talked about@michaeljamin.com slash course. You've got your free lesson, michael jamin.com/free. You've got your webinars, which people can sign up for at michael jamin.com/webinar. You only need to sign up once. We'll continue to invite you to them as long as you want to stay on that list. That's all it's used for. Yeah. Anything else you can think of?

Michael Jamin:

That's it. Get on my newsletter. Lots of good stuff on the newsletter. Michael jamon.com/newsletter. Just go to my website, poke around. There's a lot of free stuff. There's a lot of really good stuff there. Phil built the website so we have him to thank for it.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, me for any problems you have. And then I think hashtag twirly girl on this post. Just if we want to hear, if people want to know about seeing those videos on there, I think

Michael Jamin:

That'd be helpful. Yeah, maybe we'll slap up a special page for my commercial work.

Phil Hudson:

I think it's worth doing. People need to see you do this because you tell people to do it. Yeah, that's a good idea. Well, Michael, thank you so much.

Michael Jamin:

Thank you, Phil, for more, what do we say

Phil Hudson:

For more like subscribe,

Michael Jamin:

But also, I dunno, keep writing. Keep

Phil Hudson:

Writing everything. Keep writing. That's what we want you to do. Keep

Michael Jamin:

Writing. Okay. Thanks everyone.

So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin ISS talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars@michaeljamin.com slash webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media at Michael Jamin writer. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media at Phil a Hudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

Show Notes

Mackenzie Barmen on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mackenziebarmen/

Mackenzie Barmen on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mackenziebarmen?lang=en

Mackenzie Barmen on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAP_cFPc2fqGTe50YhOlkDg/videos

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Mackenzie Barman:

There's a part of me that worries on some level all the time, but then there's a stronger part of me. I think that's pretty delusional in a good way, that I'm like, no, I am certain that I'm supposed to do this, and I just can't falter. I just, I'm doing,

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.

Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, I'll tell you what I've been talking about. If you've been listening to any number of my podcasts or by social media, I've been saying the same thing a lot. I've been saying, if you are an aspiring whatever, if you're an actor or a writer or performer, put your work out there. Just start doing it, and the more you do it, the better you get. And then my next guest is someone who did just that and is doing that, and I discovered her maybe a year or two ago, and we're going to talk, and she's big. We're going to talk to her about her journey here. Mackenzie Barman, thank you so much for coming here. Lemme tell you when I first found you, and then you'll Yes, please. Then we'll tell you were doing a bit, it was a piece on you were reciting nursery rhymes, and you playing two characters.

You generally will talk about this, but you generally do two characters have, and you're both, and usually it's kind of a sweet and naive version of you. And then there's kind of a meaner more, not sinister, but cynical. And I guess she puts you in your place. She's a little, and she wants up making you cry a lot. And so the sweet one was talking about nursery rhyme, and the other one was telling you, you're so naive, you have no idea what these nursery rhymes are about. And so that blew up and that's how I found you, and it was really funny. I love

Mackenzie Barman:

It. Thank you.

Michael Jamin:

Well, tell me, what is this? So you're huge on TikTok, you have almost 3 million followers, which is

Mackenzie Barman:

Almost

Michael Jamin:

Huge. I've written for shows that haven't been seen by anywhere near 3 million people. So you have a giant following, but tell me, so why did you start doing this?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, I was an actor in the pandemic, and I didn't really know what to do with myself. And so everyone was on TikTok for fun. That was when TikTok was really blowing up, and I kind of just decided to start making videos and then not taking it seriously at all. But then I was like, well, it gives me a kind of a platform. And no one was really using it like that yet. But I started to see some sketches pop up and I was like, huh, or viral videos, whatever. And then I ended up just at random seeing somebody write about a nursery rhyme in a Facebook status. And I was still using Facebook, which I don't, and I was like, oh. And I learned in that moment what that nursery rhyme meant. So I just on a whim made that first

Michael Jamin:

Video. So that was one of your first videos?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, it was one. I did a whole series of those ones. So I did it and I just kind of improvised it. And the next morning I woke up and it had gone kind of viral, and so I made another one, and then I made another one and they kind of just blew up. And so, yeah, it was kind of random.

Michael Jamin:

But your intention, it was boredom or was it, you said you wanted to have a platform. What was your goal?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, it was a little bit out of boredom, but it was more so like, well, let me put myself out there. And I used to go to a lot of casting director workshops and when I lived in New York City, and they would always say the same thing when YouTube was really big, make your own web series, put yourself out there, all that stuff. And so that's always been in the back of my mind, and I've always kind of considered myself a multihyphenate. I also shoot and direct and all that stuff, so I was like, I need to do that. So that's why I've always kind of focused on acting, being the primary thing in my videos. Let's get to that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I was going to say, it's really smart. You show a range. I mean, you have, like I said, the sweet side, and then the other side is, and sometimes you play well, you're always playing characters, but to me it's smart. You're showing your range as an actor.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

What do your reps have to say about all this?

Mackenzie Barman:

They love it. I actually got my managers through TikTok, they found me and oh my

Michael Jamin:

God, really?

Mackenzie Barman:

I had already had voiceover representation through my agency, but I didn't have a manager or anything. And I met my manager, Rachel. I loved her right away. And they love it, and they love the content and that it's acting first and the series and all that.

Michael Jamin:

So they give you any feedback or No, they just like, we love it.

Mackenzie Barman:

No, not really. They just let me roll with it. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. And then what other opportunities have come from all this?

Mackenzie Barman:

Gosh, well, one of the coolest things is the relationships that I've built with other creators, especially actor creators. And you just kind of know when you vibe with some people or when I watch certain people, I'm like, I know our brains work the same way. So I seek those people out to become, I love getting to know the people that I admire. It's cool to meet people talent first, and then it's doing a play with somebody. I

Michael Jamin:

Know you collaborate with people sometimes. I've seen some of those videos you've done.

Mackenzie Barman:

I've done a couple. I'm going to be doing more now that I'm in LA and with a lot more people. But that's been a really cool thing that's come from this. Did

Michael Jamin:

You start this in New York your first three years? Yeah. Oh, really?

Mackenzie Barman:

Okay. Yeah, I just moved to LA a few weeks ago. I was in New York

Michael Jamin:

City. Oh, when you said you changed your apartments, I assumed you were moved, okay. From in la, but you're Oh, you're, well, welcome to la. Okay. Thank you. Wow, this is a big adjustment for you. So what prompted you to move to LA then?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, my managers are out here, and since TikTok, I've really, it's funny. I was always kind of like, I wanted to really be such a chameleon and not hone in on any one thing. I didn't want to just do comedy. I didn't want to just do drama. But now with TikTok, it's really pushed me more into comedy, and I've found that I really do love it. So out here, there's so many comedy opportunities, and I'm going to be doing part of a live show on December 10th, and just being, I just needed to be out here.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. So how did you get, you've only been here for three minutes, so how did you get this live show already?

Mackenzie Barman:

Through a friend of mine, actually, through social media. Someone you, oh

Michael Jamin:

My God, so smart. I'm always yelling at people. They're like, do I have to be in la? I'm like, well, this is where everyone is. I mean, why would you know? What were you doing? Were you doing a lot of theater in New York?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, so I did a lot of regional theater. I did an off-Broadway musical, and then when the pandemic happened, I was really trying to shift into more TV and film work. I really wanted to be on tv. I still do. That's really my big focus is to be on tv, be in movies. But I was kind of transitioning and doing the casting director workshops and doing all those things, and then the pandemic hit. But yeah, mostly theater. I'm a theater girl

Michael Jamin:

Now. Did you study, where have you studied? Did you study in college? Where did, yeah,

Mackenzie Barman:

I went to a SUNY school and I loved it. I went to SUNY Potsdam in upstate New York, and I studied theater and theater education. I didn't really start doing plays until high school and in high school. So

Michael Jamin:

You're from New York?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'm from New York. From

Michael Jamin:

New York, okay.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, born and raised, upstate New York, near Albany. And then, yeah, I moved down to the city to be an actor and do all that. Right.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. You've only been here three weeks and so much has already happened for you already.

Mackenzie Barman:

What do you think? Yeah, I'm trying.

Michael Jamin:

What do you think It's a culture shock. What do you think?

Mackenzie Barman:

Right now, I'm in my lust for life extrovert phase where I'm like, because a homebody pretty much, I'm an extroverted homebody, so I like to be home a lot. But right now I'm just trying to be out a lot, meet people that I've, and just kind of be really social,

Michael Jamin:

Been amazing. How did you get into play? Okay, you moved here. Did you stay with a friend when you found your, how did, because I'm telling people come out. How did you do it? How did

Mackenzie Barman:

It was a pain? So I visited last August, and I stayed with one of my managers. Actually, I crashed at her place. I went a couple different places, but she's the best. I love her. And they're in the West Hollywood area, so it's really the only place I know. So that's where I am now. I'm in West Hollywood. And then I looked at a couple apartments when I was here, but I really didn't know where I was. I kind of did, but I don't really know. And then, so I just, Zillow and Trulia, and I ended up finding this apartment on Trulia, and I had a couple of friends come look at it and FaceTime me,

Michael Jamin:

And it was good enough.

Mackenzie Barman:

I was like,

Michael Jamin:

And then Did you drive here? You

Mackenzie Barman:

Flew here? I drove,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That's how you do it. Did your car. Wow. Now tell me, when you start posting, these are thought out, these videos you make, how much time do you spend a day making, and how many times do you post a day?

Mackenzie Barman:

It's really funny. I usually post once a day at most. I really should try to post once a day at least. It's usually every two or three days. Oh, really? Yeah. But I've been kind of busy, but it was once a day when I was doing the nursery rhymes, but I kind of got a little burned out, I think.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you do get burned out. It's

Mackenzie Barman:

A lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. But I don't write anything beforehand. I improvise everything, but I kind of write it in my head as I go, and I have a loose idea going into it of if it was a nursery rhyme or something, I would have to research and have the facts ready. I would do that research beforehand and then kind of reference it as I improvised it. But for the character stuff, it's all kind of, they kind of just take over. I take a backseat,

Michael Jamin:

But you must edit some stuff out, or no, is everything what you say goes in?

Mackenzie Barman:

Sometimes if I say something and then I'm like, even if it's improvised, I'm like, huh, you know what? I think I want to tweak that and put the intonation somewhere else, or put a micro look or an eyebrow raise kind of somewhere else. I'll redo it. But most of the time it's my first take, honestly.

Michael Jamin:

So, okay. I was going to ask you where you're editing it because you're like this, you're holding it, and you do your one line, and then you turn around and do the other line, and then

Mackenzie Barman:

I swap. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So you're not even editing it?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, because I shoot in the app, unless it's Snapchat filters, which a couple of my characters are Snapchat filters, in which case I'll film them. It used to be that if I was doing the Snapchat filters, I would just shoot one character as a monologue and then post that. But then with my Danny and Bab series, this new, these characters, I have

Michael Jamin:

The ugly babies that you post.

Mackenzie Barman:

They're adults. Okay. I just, I'll pull up his filter, shoot his line, save the video, switch the filter, do her response.

Michael Jamin:

I'm surprised you can't even remember what you just said. You know what I'm saying? With the last character just said,

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I don't know. It's just kind of alive in that moment. But

Michael Jamin:

Are you thinking in advance, okay, this is going to do well, or this is just what I want to do today? Do you care?

Mackenzie Barman:

I do care only because I kind of have to care. I feel like it influences so much. Now your numbers and all that stuff, but I also care because I want people to like it. I want people to genuinely have a response to it that's a little deeper maybe than normal. On TikTok scrolling, which I do get a lot. I'll get people being like, wait, this is actually, so people

Michael Jamin:

Are, well, your fans really loved you. I've read some of these comments, and what surprises me is that you interact with pretty much everyone.

Mackenzie Barman:

I try. I try and they're smart. Okay.

Michael Jamin:

Why do you try?

Mackenzie Barman:

Because it, it's weird. It's like this weird, I don't really ever go to anyone's profile or whatever, but I can almost hear the comment in my head, and it almost in that brief moment feels like a conversation's actively happening. So I'm bantering with this person, or I don't know. It's just, it's fun to be engaging. And I've had people respond when I do engage and they're like, oh my God, I can't believe you applied. And that to me is just so lovely.

Michael Jamin:

It is lovely, but it's so much work on your part.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know, but I sit and scroll a lot. So it's like part of the package. It's like part of producing the video almost is then the engagement after. And I don't do it as much as I used to, but I do. It depends on what mood I'm in.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder though. I wonder what you're supposed to do when I started, are you supposed to, I'm not even sure when I get, my page is very different from yours. They have questions for me. They want, as opposed to you. I think they're like your fans, they just want to, and so they're

Mackenzie Barman:

Just making a commentary on it

Michael Jamin:

Or something. Well, they really like your show. They like what? You're the fans. And so I just don't know what the rules are. I don't know if you're supposed to

Mackenzie Barman:

Interact yourself. I dunno. And it depends. If somebody does leave a nasty comment or say something mean, which is oddly really rare, don't come from me guys. Don't start. But it's rare. They're pretty good, my, because some people get it bad for some reason, and I don't really get that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, go on. What do you do?

Mackenzie Barman:

Wait, I've lost my train of thought. What

Michael Jamin:

Was it? You said? Some people come after you and they're mean,

Mackenzie Barman:

And either I'll completely ignore them or I'll delete it. If it's a needle in a haystack and it's just something mean, I'll delete it. But sometimes I'll respond with sarcasm or I'll make a sarcastic response video, and then it makes it funny. So then it's like, oh, this is actually a joyful experience. But most of the time I'll just ignore them if I do get them.

Michael Jamin:

And you don't block 'em, you just ignore them?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I don't really block anybody unless they're trying to impersonate me, but

Michael Jamin:

Even, yeah. Wow. You don't even block the haters.

Mackenzie Barman:

Not usually. There's been maybe two or three.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, wow. I get more than you do I get more than haters than you?

Mackenzie Barman:

They don't really come for me. It's weird. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. But now you're putting yourself out there. It's pretty vulnerable. I mean, it may hit, it may not. It may be funny. It may not be. I mean, was that hard at the beginning for you to do that?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I think the nursery rhyme videos did so well. Those were just one of those weird viral things where every video was getting a million plus and it was every day. It was just crazy. And now it ebbs and flows so much with TikTok. And now I have more normal numbers, I think. But I definitely do get a little anxious about that. Sometimes I'm like, oh gosh, I thought this video would do better. Or I'll post something out of my norm and then I wake up and it's done really well, and I'm like, oh, and then I'll try to do that again, and then it doesn't do as well. So it's like a flash in the pan thing.

Michael Jamin:

Do you share it as well on Instagram? I mean, what do you

Mackenzie Barman:

I do, yeah. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Immediately. Same content. You just put it up there.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Do you put it anywhere else?

Mackenzie Barman:

Not really. I've put a couple on YouTube. I really need to start utilizing the YouTube shorts because I think where it's at and Snapchat, I need to start utilizing more. I think they're up and coming. They're coming back. You think

Michael Jamin:

So?

Mackenzie Barman:

They're coming back? I think so.

Michael Jamin:

How many hours a day or minutes a day do you spend on this?

Mackenzie Barman:

I would say on average, I probably spend an hour on a video.

Michael Jamin:

Really? Okay. It's not nothing. It's not nothing.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. It's not nothing. But it's not like I know some people put in and you can tell some of these videos are gorgeous and the editing is, but since it's just me, it's also a lot harder for me to film outside of my hand, setting up the tripod moving and just a lot more to do. So it's just easier for me to

Michael Jamin:

Do. Do you have a list of ideas that you keep? And are you running out of ideas?

Mackenzie Barman:

I always feel like I'm running out of ideas. I always think if a video, especially if a video does really well, I'm like, I'm never going to do this well ever again. But I don't usually keep a list of ideas. Sometimes I'll jot down, I have a bunch of notes, like separate note app ideas. But a lot of the times it's just, if I have the thought, I'll just record it. That's why a lot of the times I look kind of like shit in my videos a little bit, because I film them. Usually my ideas come right in the morning, and so I'll just wake up and film an idea, and then it's, before I've even brushed my teeth or anything, I'm just gross. But it's when, and I just do it.

Michael Jamin:

And you put it up. It's so interesting. I don't know. Is there a fear? Is there any fear associated? It seems like you don't have any fear at all about this.

Mackenzie Barman:

I feel like I do. I feel there's a constant anxiety of one. I have imposter syndrome pretty intensely.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. And who do you think you are? Do you, you're not, is that

Mackenzie Barman:

I don't come from an industry family or any kind of connections like that. So I'm always like, who am I?

Michael Jamin:

But they have imposter syndrome too, because their mother and father was, they're famous. So I think they have bigger imposter syndrome than you do. You're

Mackenzie Barman:

Self made. I'm learning that. I'm learning everyone deals. There was a great Viola Davis interview where she talked about imposter syndrome, and it was great to hear that.

Michael Jamin:

What did she say?

Mackenzie Barman:

Just that it never goes away and that she was doing, oh gosh, what was the movie she did with Denzel Washington?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, was it Fences?

Mackenzie Barman:

Fences? Yeah. I think it was about fences. And she was talking about she was playing that part and was like, who am I to do this? It may have been that, but she was just talking about that, and I was like, that's really refreshing, because I think I look through rose colored glasses at these celebs sometimes, and I'm like, oh my God. They're so confident. But we're always seeing the best take, and we're always getting, especially as you get more involved in the industry, you start to see that it's all kind of smoke and mirrors. You just have to fake it.

Michael Jamin:

I read an article yesterday about Brian May from Queen. He said he still has some imposter syndrome, and he's Sir Brian May, and he's like, why isn't they call me, sir?

Mackenzie Barman:

It's wild. Yeah, it's wild. But that there is fear there. There is that fear of the imposter syndrome of like, oh my gosh, who am I? And it's silly. It's silly. And I know that, but

Michael Jamin:

Are you monetizing TikTok or no? Yeah. You are? Yeah. In the creator fund?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. So they have the creator beta program or program beta, whatever it's called. Great. Is

Michael Jamin:

That effective use?

Mackenzie Barman:

I dunno, maybe, but I don't dunno. Interesting. It's nice because you can only monetize on content over a minute, and most of my content is over a minute, so it really was a good thing for me. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

You'd have to change anything.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

But you have to have a personal account, not a business account. Right? Isn't

Mackenzie Barman:

That what you maybe? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Now, in your reps, as I was checking out some of your videos, you are, it's funny that they said this, but they like that you're in character. They like that you're acting. And I was curious, why don't you, or have you thought of, this is me today. I'm not going to act today. This is me. This is, I'm want to table my life. You're not doing that though.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, no. I've done a couple of videos like that. I've probably done 10 or 12, maybe 20. I don't even know how many I have on my page, but where it's me doing something. But I feel like sometimes it feels like I'm always in a bit, and I don't know if that's being an actor or if it's my own neuroses, but if I am in front of a camera, it's kind of hard for me to be just me, unless I'm doing a podcast and talking to somebody. But if it's me looking at myself on video, I'm always going to be like, ha.

Michael Jamin:

It's

Mackenzie Barman:

Difficult for me sometimes. But I do think about that because there is a part of me that really wants to be more like, wait, okay, so here I am as a person. Get ready with me. As I tell you this story, I thought about doing more of those just because it is fun to do that.

Michael Jamin:

Right? But the

Mackenzie Barman:

Math is always on. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

That's more of a you thing. It's so interesting. I wonder, I was going to ask if you feel almost trapped in this persona that you are now?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. Yes and no. No, probably not. I don't think so. I think I play such a variety of characters on my TikTok.

Michael Jamin:

Except for yourself. You play characters except

Mackenzie Barman:

For you. It's never really me. Definitely the closest one to me. And I think I'm pretty split right down the middle between the dark me and the innocent me in the nursery rhyme videos. And that dynamic is, in a lot of the videos, there's always me and me and whoever else, Chelsea or whoever. But I'm definitely split right in the middle. But if I had to lean, I would definitely lean toward the happy, bubbly me. That's probably the closest to me in any of my videos.

Michael Jamin:

But not that you should, I'm just pointing out you're not sharing anything really personal or intimate about yourself or

Mackenzie Barman:

No, no. In a weird way, I think that it's like, I don't know. There's a part of me that likes, there admires those celebs that you really don't know too much about Florence Pugh or Jennifer Lawrence. They give you glimpses into their life, their personal life. But there always is this level of mystique to them. And not that I'm trying to be mysterious, but I do think that it in the long run might serve me better as an actor to be more private than to be so human. I don't know. Well,

Michael Jamin:

It's interesting because it's also like you must know Elise Meyers, because I mean, she's big, but you're up there. I mean, you're not far behind her, and she's more, and it seems like she's doing what she wants to do, but she's more actor and she's more, I guess, personality.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. Yeah. I love Elise, and I don't know her, but I love her because she's so just herself. She might have self-doubt, whatever. I have no idea. Imposter syndrome and stuff, but she appears and she does speak on things, her iss, and she's just so honest about it. And I do love that. I don't know. I just can't do it.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Well, you're being authentic or I

Mackenzie Barman:

Can, but yeah, I don't know. It's just tricky. There is that kind of want to keep this, but who is Mackenzie thing

Michael Jamin:

And what surprising opportunities have come from this or partnerships or relationships or whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

I'm trying to think. Besides auditions and stuff.

Michael Jamin:

So you've gotten direct auditions from this? I

Mackenzie Barman:

Have.

Michael Jamin:

How did that work?

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, a lot of the times I'll go through my reps and then my reps will reach out to me, say, oh, you've been actually personally requested for this.

Michael Jamin:

That's a big deal.

Mackenzie Barman:

It really is. And I've gotten some callback. I've gotten, most of the time, if I audition for projects like that, I'll get a call back and then go whatever, and then it doesn't happen or whatever for whatever reason. But it's happened, yeah, a few times. But a lot of the time too, I don't know. I really don't know how much, because I get auditions through my agents, a normal actor would. So I don't really know on the back end of it how much they're like, oh, here's her video. I don't really know.

Michael Jamin:

But do your reps try to sell you like, Hey, she's got 3 million followers on, because that would be good to help sell the show when you book it or whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

Oh, I think so. Yeah. I think that's definitely a leverage point. Working on treatments and stuff. There is work that I want to put out and produce and whatever, and I do think that helps and is a big aspect of

Michael Jamin:

It. So is that on your resume, like your follower account on your acting resume or no?

Mackenzie Barman:

I don't dunno. Actually. It might

Michael Jamin:

Be it. Should it be right? Shouldn't it be?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think in today's world, yeah, I think it probably should. It probably is. And it probably needs to be updated, actually, now that I'm thinking about it. But yeah, I think it is on there.

Michael Jamin:

One thing you don't do, I don't think you do, is sell merch.

Mackenzie Barman:

No, I did one drop and I had a bad experience.

Michael Jamin:

What happened

Mackenzie Barman:

With doing it? I think my problem is I am not a salesy person. And when I was trying to sell or advertise my merch, those videos did not do well and not a of lot of eyes saw them because the people who would typically see my content, it was so out of the realm of what their algorithm would be that it didn't pop up for 'em and it just didn't do well. And I was like, you know what? And I didn't like working with, so if I think if I did, I would just do it myself.

Michael Jamin:

Wait, weren't you doing print on demand? How is it?

Mackenzie Barman:

I had worked with a merch company. I don't even remember the name of the company actually, but I had worked with a merch company and it was just a quick drop. I think typically if it's a first time, they'll do a limited drop to see how it does and then move

Michael Jamin:

On. You work with the merch company. Why don't you just go to some place that print on demand? I have five T-shirts if you want to make 'em one at a time.

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, it was kind of near when I was kind first starting out, and it's one of those things where you kind learn as you go approached. They had reached out and they said, Hey, we think McKenzie would be great. And they'd worked with other people. I think that's how it went down, or no, no, that's not true. I think it was my idea to make merch. And then I had, they were recommended because they had worked with some other great people and were really successful. So I think it was just my particular launch didn't do.

Michael Jamin:

Didn't do well.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael. If you like my content and I know you do listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michae jamin.com. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about.

What about brand deals? Are you working with people with companies? Yeah.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I've done some brand deals, which are so fun. I want to do more of them because they're just fun. It kind of gives me a, because a lot of the times there's no guiding light in my videos. It's just what's ever in my head. So when I have a brand to work with, it's fun. I can work around that.

Michael Jamin:

Did you hook up onto the backend of TikTok, or, I don't even know they hook you up, or no.

Mackenzie Barman:

Well, I think a little bit. I'm so bad. I don't really know all the business backend things of TikTok. I've seen some ads and stuff you can apply to be a part of this ad or something, but the pay is really low sometimes, or it's like a share a revenue share system, and I just don't want to be bothered with that. So these ones, they'll come through my management or my agents and be like, really? Hey, they want to work with me. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

But do you have special agents, social media agents, or No, just your acting agents?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. At my agency, they have a department for everything. So I'm working with an agent there. Yeah. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

Wow. So interesting.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'm still learning too. It really is a business. And you'd kind of go to theater school and you're like, okay, yeah, sure, it's a business, but then you're in the world and you're like, oh, this is a business.

Michael Jamin:

Alright, so is this your primary income or no?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, kind of. So I do a lot of things. So I also run a video production company. You do? It's very small, but it's called Real You, and it's a demo reel production company for actors. So basically, yes, I work with actors. I was an actor who had a MISHMOSHED demo reel of all these different student films, or you just wouldn't get the footage. So it was always a hassle if you didn't have stuff to put a reel together. And so I basically sit with actors, figure out their branding, their type, whatever, and then write them scenes and then film them. But professionally, I have a real camera and all that good stuff.

Michael Jamin:

And how do they find you? These people

Mackenzie Barman:

Through my website or there's a business website and stuff. And it's funny because all of the SEO is for New York, and so I need to figure out a way to make everyone know that we're in LA now. So I do that and I do voiceover, so I do commercial and animation. Well, nothing animation yet. I audition a lot, but I'm hoping to book something soon. But a lot of commercial work and radio stuff, so I just have a lot of,

Michael Jamin:

But it seems very smart what you're doing. You're also working with, you're meeting actors, you're working with actors, you're making contacts, and you're getting paid for it out here. It's

Mackenzie Barman:

Making me a better writer, a better director, a better actor, because I also edit the scenes. Each scene is about a couple minutes long, and so I know when I'm directing them and shooting it, oh, this was helpful in the editing process, or, oh, this was actually difficult.

Michael Jamin:

So it's interesting though that you write stuff for them, but you don't write for yourself. You just impro yourself.

Mackenzie Barman:

I do write some stuff. My tiktoks, I don't write for some reason. I really should maybe try to sit and write something. I think I just write backwards when I'm doing that. But when I'm writing treatments, we're working on TV stuff, then I'll sit and write if it's because a lot of the stuff that I write is for me, but it's also for other people.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Yeah. It's so interesting. Like I said, I thought what you're doing was so smart because you're really showcasing your writing, you're showcasing your acting, and you're, your range, your acting range by playing all these different characters. It just seems like that's exactly what you should be doing. Yeah.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I'm really trying to build a brand there. And it's nice because it kind of acts like a resume or a reel. I'm like, just go watch my tiktoks and you can see, you can see what I'm all about.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. And what about the partnerships, the other actors that you're working with? Tell me a little bit about what that had led to

Mackenzie Barman:

The actors that I shoot for

Michael Jamin:

Or that you shoot with or that you collaborate with.

Mackenzie Barman:

Oh, man. Well, I've only collaborated with a couple people. My friend's Taylor and James, who are content creators, and they're both actors. They're amazing. They live in la. I did a video with them, and I actually shot this morning with Laura Clary. Do you know Laura Clary? She's great. She's so funny. She's like an internet queen. And so when I'm shooting with them, I love working with other people, a theater person. So it's in my soul to have tangible people with me. But most of the time I'm alone. So when I'm working with another actor, it's just the best, especially when I'm just bantering freely with them or, because Laura, for instance, she wrote a script for us, and when I clagged with Taylor and James, we kind of improvised it, had an idea of what it was going to be. It was like a curb situation. We had the bones, but Laura wrote it, and then we kind of improvised on the fly. It was great. I loved it.

Michael Jamin:

And they're pretty much want what you want. They want to get more traditional acting on TV and film.

Mackenzie Barman:

I think so, yeah. Well, I know that some of them do. Laura's already established and stuff, but my client actors, they're all either working actors who want to update their reel or want to add a very specific, they need a detective scene, or they need this specific type of scene. They'll come to me. Some of them I've become really good friends with just because I'm like, oh, I love you.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, you've only been in LA three weeks. Are you going to get involved in the theater scene or the improv scene, or what are you going to do?

Mackenzie Barman:

So I really want to get into the comedy scene of the character shows and a little bit of standup. I'm going to kind of play on the 10th. I'm going to have a five minute set and this show. So I think I'm just going to totally improvise it and just see what happens. This is my first show. So who caress

Michael Jamin:

And where is that going to be?

Mackenzie Barman:

That is going to be, oh, I don't know where it's going to be. Actually, I don't,

Michael Jamin:

By the time this airs, it'll be too late. But I'm just curious as to,

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I don't know. It's called One Star Review. It's like a comedy showcase.

Michael Jamin:

It's amazing how quickly you jumped into it, honestly, you jumped into it. I don't,

Mackenzie Barman:

I always feel like I'm not doing enough. I always feel like I need to be doing, but I probably am fine.

Michael Jamin:

It's only been three weeks. Yeah, I, but it seems like, I don't know. I admire you because you're not worried about figuring out. You're just doing it. It'll fall into place. And I think a lot of people are afraid to try and to, yeah,

Mackenzie Barman:

I think that I'm definitely always a little bit afraid. There's always a part of me that is like, oh my gosh, what if I run out of money? What if I don't? I don't really have anyone really to fall back on in that way, any connection. I just don't have, there's no alternative for me.

Michael Jamin:

But you didn't in New York either. I mean your family, but there are upstate New York,

Mackenzie Barman:

And it's just really tricky. And I think that there's a part of me that worries on some level all the time, but then there's a stronger part of me. I think that's pretty delusional in a good way, that I'm like, no, I'm certain that I'm supposed to do this, and I just can't falter. This is what I'm doing.

Michael Jamin:

When you mean do this, what do you mean? Do what?

Mackenzie Barman:

Just be an actor and be in this industry. I've always felt that way about myself, and it's weird. It's a weird just knowing, and I don't want to come off pretentious at all about it. I'm not saying, oh my God, I'm so good. It's more of just like a, no, I know this is what I have to do. It's weird.

Michael Jamin:

But I'm wondering if you, because you got a giant following. I mean, and it's weird. On TikTok, you have 3 million fans, but on any given day a hundred makes, it doesn't mean 3 million going to see your work. The algorithm is so weird. But I wonder if you have any bigger plans from this or from, what are they then, other than getting cast and having someone else? What else?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, so really, I really, truly, I think that I need to create the vehicle for myself. And I think a lot of people do that and need to do that. I don't think people just, it's rare that you're just discovered or someone's like you. I'm going to cast you. It's just so rare. And so I am definitely being proactive with writing and stuff, and I've written a pilot. I have a treatment for that pilot, and that's the clearest idea I have. I'm also writing a one woman show at the moment, like a stage show. Great. I'm in the early planning stages, early as is. I just had this idea two days ago of a monthly kind of mackenzie and Friends comedy show.

Michael Jamin:

What

Mackenzie Barman:

Kind of show? I think I want it just to be a variety show of whatever the comedians want to do.

Michael Jamin:

And it'll be a stage show.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, stage show. And I would just host it. But also, I have treatments that I'm working on for TV series and movies, and so I'm flushing those out, getting everything in order. I really, really want to pitch in 2024 and be ready for that. And I also want to write,

It's something, excuse me, that I kind of recently, I think I always have liked that part of the process, but I think in my mind, I always thought to be a writer, you have to sit down and write, there's only one way to do it, and this is how you have to do it. But I'm learning that it's just not that way. I think David Mamet, he paces and he talks out loud before he ever sits down to write. And so I did. I host a podcast that I'm bringing back in January that I had Cola Cola on, and I love them. And I was talking to them and I was saying that, oh, I'm not a writer. And they were like, no, you just do it backwards. And they write on TV shows and all that. And it really changed. They had an effect on me when they said that because it really changed.

Michael Jamin:

So what is your intention with the podcast then? You're busy. Well, the

Mackenzie Barman:

Podcast. I know, I'm trying, I'm so the podcast, it's called Bullshittery. It had one season, but I did it on TikTok Live, and I did not like that format at all. I thought it would be fun and experimental, and it just felt like a TikTok Live and not an actual podcast. So I'm doing it now in person in January, now that I'm here, and it's like an interview-based podcast, but it's very loose structure and just chatting with different people that are kind of in the industry, our comedians, and just a loy sheet of shit.

Michael Jamin:

You're going to rent a studio for that?

Mackenzie Barman:

I'm going to do it in my apartment. In

Michael Jamin:

Your apartment? Yeah. Very good. So you got to get another microphone. Is that what you're going to do? I got to

Mackenzie Barman:

Get another mic.

Michael Jamin:

And you got to edit it though.

Mackenzie Barman:

And I got to edit it. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

That's work too.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know, I know. And TikTok live was easy because the sound and the video were just there. I really didn't have to edit that. But this I will, because I'm going to up the quality a little bit. I'm going to use a proper camera and do it. Do it right.

Michael Jamin:

You can need a couple cameras. You probably, you want two cameras and maybe a master. Right.

Mackenzie Barman:

I was thinking that of either doing one and just keeping it in a two shot the whole time, which some people do. But also doing the single cam on each side. I don't know yet. I don't know yet. I'm open to suggestions if you have any. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. There are studios that you can go and rent it out and they'll do the whole thing, but you pay by the hour.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know. I, I did that once in la. It was actually a great experience. I love doing it, but I'd rather, because I don't have any sponsors yet. Once I get sponsors, then I can kind of up my,

Michael Jamin:

I think you need around 10,000 downloads to get meaningful sponsors. I think I

Mackenzie Barman:

So, I think so. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

You're probably not there yet, but you will be. Don't

Mackenzie Barman:

Think. But I'm also a terrible marketer, so when I was doing the podcast before, I posted a couple of videos and I was like, this just is not me. And I need to get past that. I need to just sell my stuff, but I feel guilty.

Michael Jamin:

But I bet you people don't even know. I mean, people don't, you've got a giant following. They may not be aware of it. You don't have to market it. You say, oh, by the way, new episode tomorrow. I have

Mackenzie Barman:

Some, no, I know. I really just need to do the clips, the podcast clips.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. You'll figure it out.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'll figure it out. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

You will. I mean, you absolutely will. And maybe you'll do characters talking about your podcast.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know. I do want to do that. I want to do bits. If I have someone to banter with and go into character with, I'll definitely do that. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's amazing how when I moved to la, I was young. I didn't have any of this shit that you got going on. I didn't even occur. I don't know. I wasn't as extroverted and as, I don't think, as confident as you are. So yeah, you're going places.

Mackenzie Barman:

I'm trying. I really am trying. Well, I know where I have to end up, so I know that I need to get in there.

Michael Jamin:

And when you say, and okay, you want to be on tv, you want to be, the problem is not many sitcoms anymore.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know. Well, I really, I am more of a streaming series girl. My ideal dream seriously would be to be a series regular on an hour long drama, drama d kind of a show that would be like,

Michael Jamin:

Tell me what show that you absolutely love that you wish you could be part of

Mackenzie Barman:

Something,

Michael Jamin:

And it doesn't have to be on the air anymore. So

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, there's a couple there, obviously. Huh? Well, I loved Big Little Lies. I love an ensemble like that. The White Lotus. If I could be on the White Lotus, that would be the, honestly, above all, that would be the show I would want to be on right now.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Okay.

Mackenzie Barman:

Succession would've been one that I would've wanted to be on. It has that snarky, realistic element to it that I love. But I also love shows like Search Party or The Comeback. I want to do a mockumentary. I want to play a version of myself. Right. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I don't, well, you can do a series on TikTok. Just bang something out.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. You already are. You kind of already are.

Mackenzie Barman:

I kind of already am. And I do try to sprinkle in dramatic elements too sometimes. And I don't know, it's funny. I like to evoke weird reactions from people. I'm laughing, but I'm also upset. I making people feel like that.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder, I think you're going to get to the point, I don't know, maybe you already are, where your reps, your agent manager, whatever, introduce new clients to you as to spring help springboard them. You really have a big platform. Has that coming? Has that happened yet?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, not yet. I don't know. It's so hard now because it's so forward facing too. I feel like there are some people that just do so well with the pop culture element of being present and being up to date with pop culture, I think is so huge. And I don't really touch upon that too, too much. So there's that small aspect I think that's keeping me from going even bigger. You know what I mean?

Michael Jamin:

Well, you did a piece where you kind of made fun of Congress when they were doing the TikTok here. Yes.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. I'll mess around with it sometimes if I see a good opportunity and I'll do it.

Michael Jamin:

But you think you need to be more topical?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think from what I see, and this might just be because we all have different worlds now too, which is another thing from my world, it seems like the people that do really well and that become kind of more forward facing are people who lean into pop culture and things that are really trending in that moment. And I feel like I maybe just don't do that enough. Not that it's a bad thing. It's almost intentional maybe. But

Michael Jamin:

Are you studying people wondering, are you trying to emulate other creators? Is that what you mean?

Mackenzie Barman:

No, I don't think I'm trying to emulate any other creators. I honestly think my biggest influences come from people outside of TikTok.

Michael Jamin:

Who are they then? Who are your influences?

Mackenzie Barman:

Like Lisa Kudrow, Tony Collette, actors,

Michael Jamin:

Amy Think, Amy Poller,

Mackenzie Barman:

Amy Poer, the classics. They're like,

Michael Jamin:

And do you think of them to get inspiration, or what do you mean when you mention them?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think that's just what comes together in my brain. It is all in there, and then it just all goes away, and then something comes out from it. I don't think I'm actively thinking like, oh, I need to channel Amy Po here, or be, I think the person that I'm closest to unintentionally, but I'll notice it sometimes, is Lisa Kudrow. I think I just love her so much and her isms that I feel like I might imitate her more than I even realized. Watch videos sometimes I'll be like, that was very Lisa cre. I'm like, that moment. But I think I'm developing my unique voice that's a blend of all these people.

Michael Jamin:

That's the step. And then I was going to say, how do you use art to influence what you do if you do? Yeah.

Mackenzie Barman:

How do I use art to influence?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't know. I guess what I'm asking is where are you drawing inspiration from? Who would you love to be? And maybe it's Lisa Kra. I know your version of them, but whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I don't really know. I feel like I always have the thought in my brain that I, I'm very conscious about what I'm putting out. Is this too silly that it's dumb? Or is it too serious that I feel like, oh my gosh, I don't even know what really influences my

Michael Jamin:

Well, are there videos then that you don't put out? I mean, you shoot and you're like, eh, I'm not putting this up.

Mackenzie Barman:

Rarely. Most of those are the silly tiktoks of if I see a viral sound or something and I'll just do it, but I won't post it, I'll just do it. I dunno. It feels weird. It feels like I'm breaking some rule with myself to go outside of, and it might be this snobbish thing that I'm doing. It might be like, oh, I need to be this character actor person. And then if I break out of that and I'm just like a real girly girl, I don't know, maybe. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Well, but that's interesting. I feel there are certain trends and there's certain challenges you could do, and I don't partake in any of that shit. I feel like I'm too old for it, but I also feel like that's just not my brand. I'm not going to do any of that. And I wonder if you feel the same way.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, I'll watch them and I'll enjoy them. Even sometimes I'll do them and I'll record them, and then I've posted a couple some, but most of the time it just feels weird to do it. I feel like I'm like, again, maybe that's that imposter syndrome creeping. I'm like, nobody wants to see me do this. Nobody wants to hear me talk about this or,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, but then, and you might be right, the thing is, you might be right. You might try that. And if you get almost, I dunno, whatever, a low view count, then you're like, I guess they didn't want to hear it then. And it may just be random.

Mackenzie Barman:

And then you're in your head like, oh my gosh, if I'm my real self and they don't like it, right? Oh my God, they don't like me, do I? And I think maybe that's part of it too. It's like I am confident when I'm acting because it's not me anymore. It's like it's somebody else. Their fear is gone really of like, well, if you don't like it, it's not me. You don't like, it's them you don't like. But when it's just me being myself, I'm questioning my humor. I'm questioning my relatability. I'm questioning my, am I girly enough? Am I quirky? It's too many thoughts.

Michael Jamin:

No, I get that. I mean, on the occasions that I'm funny in my video, I'm like, this better be funny. This guy says he's a comedy writer. What's going to throw shade at me? And they'll be, right.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah. But I admire that. And it seems silly when I'm talking about it, it seems like just be yourself. I know people love me, but I don't know. It just feels weird. But I admire so much, and I watch all the videos of people who are just like, story time. I'm going to tell you this time. And I love that. I don't know. I just feel like if I do it, I'll record it and watch it. I'll be like, the story is dumb. Or I don't know, a lot of self-doubt, but it's weird. It's like I can have self-doubt here, but then I'm like, no, this is amazing. Somewhere else.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Okay. And is there any thought, I guess there isn't because you kind of improv this, but I'm always thinking, I better get too, because people got that thumb on and they can scroll so fast. Do you give any thought to that? How fast you're going to get this thing moving? How fast you're going to get to the good part?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Because I think sometimes the music helps if people, that's why I always will use sinister music, because people immediately are like, oh, what's going on here? And I think that will compensate for me taking my beats and taking my sweet time with it. Because at the end of the day too, I love storytelling and I love of keeping people engaged with something. So I kind of let the music do that part. But I do think about that, oh, I should really get to it quickly within the first 10, 15 seconds at least. But even then, it's too late.

Michael Jamin:

It's so interesting. I don't know how we're supposed to handle any of this, but again, I guess I want to get back to you before I get to let you go, before you respond. The relationships that you've formed, I guess they are your fans and you correspond with them, whatever.

Mackenzie Barman:

And a couple have become friends, a couple of Really, yeah. There's a couple people that I've just messaged and just vibed with you just kind of, most of the time it's like nothing. But do

Michael Jamin:

They reach out to you first? Or how does that work?

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, there have been a couple people that I noticed will comment a lot, and then I'll kind of randomly respond to dms on Instagram. I respond to a lot of dms, honestly. But then sometimes if there's just, you just know energetically. If they're kind of odd or they're kind of pushy or they say something weird, then I'm like, okay, bye. But sometimes they'll be kind of funny and kind of like bantering. I'm like, huh, okay. There's a girl, Faye, I love her. Shout out Faye. She's from Ireland. And I love people that are not from the United States, too. If you're from England or Ireland or somewhere, I'm going to love you automatically. But she's from Ireland, and we were kind of joking about her teaching me an Irish accent, whatever. So we were like voice memoing back and forth. And then she's the one who now Photoshops my Danny and Babs photos. She's just amazing at it. And she's like, I'll just do it. Don't worry about it. I'm like,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, wow.

Mackenzie Barman:

Okay.

Michael Jamin:

Isn't that nice? I

Mackenzie Barman:

Love her. I love her. Wow.

Michael Jamin:

It's such an interesting, I don't know, community, and I wonder how big this thing is. I wonder how many creators. There's a small circle that I seem to be in, and I'm like, is this everybody? Or am I missing about 10 billion of us?

Mackenzie Barman:

I think it's both because I feel like it's a small world. Most of the time, the people I know, the other people that I know and influencers are comedic content creators. But then there will be somebody with 12 million followers who I've never seen or heard of before, and I'm like, I did not know you even existed, but you're so famous on the internet. And I'm like, I've never seen you. So it's weird.

Michael Jamin:

And you reach out to them, or No, you just follow them or

Mackenzie Barman:

Something. Oh, no, I'll just hear about it. Or I'll see a random person pop up on TikTok and go to their profile and they have 12 million. And I'm like, I have never seen you before. It's just odd. It's such

Michael Jamin:

An odd thing. There's this woman that I follow, and maybe you've heard of her. She's digging a ton under her house, but

Mackenzie Barman:

I want to be on that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't know where she lives, but she has a house and she's literally digging. She has a lab coat, and she's pouring concrete and she's digging, and it's just her passion. But I don't know if she's a, I don't think

Mackenzie Barman:

She is that legal. Can you do that?

Michael Jamin:

Right. And she's not really, I don't think she's a certified structural engineer, but she has all these books and she's reading them. She's like, and this is how I learned how to do the electricity. It's like, oh my God, I just had to read this book. And so she's like a mad scientist. And then she was picked up on Yahoo. Yahoo did an article about her, and then I DMed her. Look at, you're on Yahoo now.

Mackenzie Barman:

Oh my gosh.

Michael Jamin:

There's just so many interesting people doing interesting things. I'm like, wow.

Mackenzie Barman:

No, I know. I'm deep on some tiktoks. I love conspiracy talk. I love it. I don't buy into it, but I love it.

Michael Jamin:

But see, I don't want to, don't think you want to get too far. You don't want to.

Mackenzie Barman:

I know.

Michael Jamin:

I know. You can keep them from a distance, but you don't want to,

Mackenzie Barman:

You start to tread a line where you're like, wait a minute, this is suddenly not where I want to be. That happens.

Michael Jamin:

Right? Wow. Mackenzie, thank you so much for joining me. What an interesting, again, I have such admiration for what you do and I'm a fan, and there it is. Yeah,

Mackenzie Barman:

I mean, you too. I mean, we got to talk shop too at some

Michael Jamin:

Point. Well, when we finish this, we will do that, but I want to make sure everyone knows where to find you. So tell everyone what all your handles are.

Mackenzie Barman:

Yeah, follow me guys. I'm at Mackenzie Barman everywhere. So I'm

Michael Jamin:

Everywhere

Mackenzie Barman:

At Mackenzie Barman. I'm mostly on TikTok and Instagram. But follow me on YouTube too, because I'll be there and Snapchat

Michael Jamin:

Can find me. I dunno anything about Snap, but alright. Thank you again and don't go anywhere. I'll sign off. I won't. Alright, everyone, another great talk. Be like her. Go follow her. Just put yourself out there and then work on it and you'll get better and better. Okay, everyone, until next week, keep creating.

So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

Show Notes

Phil Wright on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/phil_wright_/

Phil Wright on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@philwright_

Phil Wright on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PhilWright

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Phil Wright:

And it's hard because we're working when we're not working, there's no punching and punch out clock with

Michael Jamin:

Us.

Phil Wright:

So it's tough. So getting the brain to relax and just actually sit down and watch a movie and not worry about camera angles, or how did he save his line to make him funny?

Michael Jamin:

Really?

Phil Wright:

I've lost, and which I'm trying to get back to. I've lost the concept of just being a consumer.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to. What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.

Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin, another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about, guys. So as you know, I'm really into talking to creative people who've just done interesting things and have invented themselves in ways. And so ordinarily I talk to screenwriters and authors and actors and directors, people like that, but I just discovered this guy I want to introduce you to. His name is Phil Wright, and he's the first dancer choreographer I'm talking to, which I think is so, I don't know. I got a lot of questions for you. Phil. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for doing this,

Phil Wright:

Dude. Thank you for having me. I'm such a fan, man. You don't realize I'm such a good fan. I watch your page all the time. I'm always interested in what you're getting into. Ah,

Michael Jamin:

That's very kind. I'm a fan of you. I have to know doing something, which is really interesting. Not a lot of people can make a living as a dancer and even a choreographer that's even fewer people. And yet this is, so where did this all begin then?

Phil Wright:

Okay, so originally from Miami, Florida. I moved to LA about 10 years ago. I had stepped into the dance world accidentally, I guess because I wasn't really technically trained per se. I didn't start at a young age. I started dancing on the streets. That's when we had crews, and if you weren't part of a crew, then you were a nerd. And I wasn't a nerd by any means. I wasn't book smart, so you had to be a part of a crew, and that's what it was. So it sort of kept me off of the street, out of trouble and fast forward, moved to LA about 10 years ago and just rebranded myself in what I was trying to do with my career. I actually started teaching children to start things off. Kind of got like, you know what? I think I could do better. I think I could, when you

Michael Jamin:

Say teaching children, you were teaching at schools at where? Yeah,

Phil Wright:

Teaching at local dance studios around the neighborhood. And honestly, it just started off like, Hey, I need some extra money, man. So I'm serving tables at Applebee's, serving two for twenties and three o'clock rolls around. I go teach a class and do my double shift, go right back to Applebee's and do the same thing all over again. And we won't talk about poker nights. But anyway.

Michael Jamin:

So you were starting at the bottom, but when you moved to la, did you hope to get in music videos? What was your aspiration?

Phil Wright:

Well, I mean, first off, I had sort of established myself in Miami. I started teaching for the Miami Heat Dance Team. Oh, really? Miami Billboard Awards, the Latin Billboard awards. And I had sort of caught fire in Miami, and I had an apartment in BIS Camp Boulevard. So I was fine. I didn't really need to move.

Michael Jamin:

So that must have been hard. You're going to leave all that behind.

Phil Wright:

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

You wanted a bigger pool or what? It was

Phil Wright:

Huge. It was a huge sacrifice. And then at that time, my girlfriend, well, now wife, I just came home and I just sort of got motivated by my friends who had moved from Miami to la.

Michael Jamin:

And how old were you at this point when you decided to leave it behind?

Phil Wright:

Dude, I told my kids this all the time. It's never too late. I moved to Los Angeles when I was 26 years old.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Okay. Well, you're still young, but, but yeah,

Phil Wright:

But in artistry world, especially if you're in front of the camera, not behind the camera writing or

Michael Jamin:

Directly,

Phil Wright:

If you're in front of the camera and you have eyes on the camera, you have to be, I don't know, fresh, I guess. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Well, especially dancing, because it takes a wear and tear on your body. I mean, it really does. Definitely.

Phil Wright:

So during that time, you would consider that, woo, that's kind of late in the game. So I moved to LA and started all over, man. I had gave up everything and I had dreams, and I gave it all up and moved to LA to sleep on the floor in my friend's apartment, one bedroom apartment with roaches crawling on me, just,

Michael Jamin:

And then where did you start from? I should mention, because I haven't said this before. You're huge on YouTube. You've got well over a million followers. That's a big deal, man. That's a very big deal. Thank you. So I mean a household name, but you are making quite a name for yourself. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Phil Wright:

I like to say this broke, gets creative really quick.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. Tell me how

Phil Wright:

The motivation to, it's not money per se, it's sort of just being productive. You know what I mean? If I can stay productive, the money will follow. But when you don't necessarily have opportunities knocking at the door every single day, you have to sort of create those opportunities.

Michael Jamin:

So how were you doing that? What were you doing?

Phil Wright:

This was the time when Instagram was around and we had our 15 second videos. These were 15 second videos. And I would go out on the street, gorilla style, no permits. I hope they won't catch me now, but no permits, no nothing. And I would get the most popular song that would drop at midnight, photograph something, get two or three friends, and record a dance routine in the middle of the street.

Michael Jamin:

And this, was it Vine or Instagram?

Phil Wright:

This was Instagram during the time. This is after Vine.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Phil Wright:

Now, strategically, what I would do is get the teachers that were already teaching in the classrooms, but I wasn't teaching during that time. No one knew who I was. I knew who those people were because I took those people's classes. So they knew I was a great dancer. They knew I was good people. So they would say, sure, yeah, Phil, we'll dance with you. And no one really, at that time, videos were not big. They weren't a big deal. So I would get them and they would just, Hey, look. And my pitch was like, I only need 15 seconds your time. That's it. 15 seconds, we'll do two eight counts. That's it. And you'll make a new appearance and then you bounce out. But

Michael Jamin:

What was your expectation when you were putting these videos up?

Phil Wright:

My expectations were to get into classrooms, to teach classes.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay. Why? Because you need a following to get to teach in a classroom.

Phil Wright:

Absolutely.

Michael Jamin:

Really?

Phil Wright:

Absolutely. See

Michael Jamin:

That I did not know, even in a small little private studio, you need a following.

Phil Wright:

You need a following. If people don't know who you are, they're not coming to take class.

Michael Jamin:

But I would think that my daughters went to take dance class and there was a studio in the neighborhood, and we went there.

Phil Wright:

Yeah, I mean, well, I'm thinking, I'm talking more of entertainment, not your residential.

Michael Jamin:

So these classes are more,

Phil Wright:

These are professional

Michael Jamin:

Dance classes, classes,

Phil Wright:

Debbie Reynolds Dance Complex. These are where the pros go to

Michael Jamin:

Try. Okay.

Phil Wright:

And my hope was is to grab these teachers and let them be a part of my video, and I produce it. Well, I cut it. I get on my little editing app, cut it up really quick. And my hope was is if they were ever absent, the studios would see that and say, oh, wow, who's this guy dance with? JR Taylor. Oh, Jr. R Taylor's out next week. Let's just get this guy, because JR Taylor must know this guy.

Michael Jamin:

So funny, because I did a post a while ago where I said, get in the neighborhood, get as close as you can physically possible to the person whose job you want, pick up their scraps. And that's exactly what you did. You just pick up their scraps. And now you're that guy now.

Phil Wright:

Yeah. And you know what? I actually had a friend of mine, we guess, I don't know, associates, and he came to me, and during that time, I had asked him to be a part of my video. At that time, no one knew me or this and that, and he declined. He was just like, no, I don't have time and everything like that. And now, fast forward six, seven years later, I invited him to my house, to my birthday party. Actually, dude, I've never told you this, but I have to apologize. I didn't know you. I was like, dude, that's water on the bridge. Doesn't matter. You didn't know me. You know what I mean? But I had to put myself out there for people to even say my name, whether if it was good or bad, at least I'm buzzing in some type of way. But

Michael Jamin:

You see, people didn't know how serious you were. I'm sure you must've known people who did what you did and gave up after about a week and a half.

Phil Wright:

Yeah. But bro, I was on a tyrant. I would shoot, say five to seven videos a day, and remember, it's only 15 seconds. So I would shoot that and then release 'em every day throughout.

Michael Jamin:

It's difficult. It becomes, you're never done. You're never done. It's like, I imagine it's sorting the mail. The mail doesn't stop coming, man. And that's what posting is like. Do you still keep that same schedule?

Phil Wright:

Well, it's tough. Now. I got two kids. I got a wife, you know what I mean? Now my home base is traveling. I travel a lot. I'm always on the plane. And I've already built up this sort of following online to where now I can, Hey, I'm in Arizona. I can put a post out and say, Hey, I'm in Arizona. And then I'll just get a wild spread of emails. Hey, could you come to my studio? Hey, could you come here?

Michael Jamin:

Is that right? So that's okay. So I want to know how that works. You decide what city you're going to go to, and you'll spend a week there. You decide, this is all your decision, right? I'm going to go to Phoenix. And then somehow, because all these people follow you on social media, these studio owners, they book you, and they know that the people, your fans are going to come see you at the studio. So it's easy for them. It's almost like a no brainer.

Phil Wright:

Well, that's the hope. You know what I mean? That you post that and they hope that people come to the studio. But in reality, I do so much with posting and promoting their own studio. They're going to go to Michael Jamin, writers Dance Studio five o'clock, see you there. Whether or not people come or not, the fact that I'm showing up there gives you such a boost to say, Hey, Phil Wright was at my studio. This is the footage. This is the class footage. You might want to check out Michael Jamin Writer's Studio next time that you're in town,

Michael Jamin:

But are you getting paid a percentage of the people who come, or are they just booking you? And regardless,

Phil Wright:

We're past that,

Michael Jamin:

Steve. We can't talk about that. I want to know how it works to be No, no,

Phil Wright:

No. We can definitely, no, that's sort of like the beginning stages of things. People handle their own the way they want to, but I work off of a flat rate, so

Michael Jamin:

So they book, you get paid either way,

Phil Wright:

Right? They book the hotel, the flight, they booked me my

Michael Jamin:

Time's. So interesting. So you're almost like a comedian, except you're doing dance.

Phil Wright:

Own my own boss, my own company. I created my own company for, right, Inc. And was able to go move off of that. So

Michael Jamin:

Do you have employees working for you? Is that what Well,

Phil Wright:

I did have an assistant that helped me all the logistics, like getting the flights and the hotels and stuff like that. But she's moved on to bigger and better things. But now I'm just solely working for myself right now, just I don't have How many,

Michael Jamin:

So you travel every week. Are you in a different city every

Phil Wright:

Week? Yeah. So I also do work for another company, a dance convention called Break the Floor. So they hire me seasonal throughout the fall up until the summer, and then I have that. So that's where you see all, I'm in the ballroom full of kids in the classes. They have numbers on their chest and

Michael Jamin:

Stuff. And those kids, what do they aspire? What do those kids, when you say, what do you think they want?

Phil Wright:

Most of them want to be professional dancers. Some of them just want to be in the room, some of them. Or you get the families that were past pro dancers that are trying to get the other kids into their kids, into dancing. So the motivation is like, yes, this is a professional. We're hiring Phil Wright, he's coming to Nebraska. Get your tickets now.

Michael Jamin:

See? And you have to have the right temperament for that, because you have to have the right energy to deal with kids. I mean, I wonder if there's a lot of people like you who do that.

Phil Wright:

Well, I would say there's not too many kid teachers out there.

Michael Jamin:

It's interesting. You've got this niche for yourself,

Phil Wright:

Enormous amount of patience. So

Michael Jamin:

Yes.

Phil Wright:

So I think that helps me out in my age. I'm very one of the very few that teaches kids. There are other few teachers out there, but I think that's where most of my clock comes from.

Michael Jamin:

Do you have a community of other dancers like yourself who do what you do?

Phil Wright:

Yeah. I mean, some of them are more on the pro side, like, Hey, they work with artists per se only. Right?

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Phil Wright:

Luckily for me, I'm in a space where I get to do a little bit of everything,

Michael Jamin:

Really.

Phil Wright:

I choreographed commercials. I just finished a commercial with Kevin Hart and DraftKings. That's going to come out later.

Michael Jamin:

You got to teach him how to dance.

Phil Wright:

Well, that was pretty funny. That was pretty funny. He came up to me and he was missing his cue, and I was like, because he was supposed to do a pump, and the pyro was supposed to go off in the back. And I go up to Kevin, I was like, Kevin, dude, you're making me look bad, man. You're not pumping on time. He goes, Phil, when you get to a status of mine, you're going to do whatever the hell you want to do.

Michael Jamin:

Really? Oh, alright. As long as the director's

Phil Wright:

Okay. I go, okay, okay. And I said, well, after we did the take, I go, well, I guess I'm out of a job then. Thanks cv. And he started laugh. So that was sort of a moment for me.

Michael Jamin:

I said this to my wife a couple of weeks ago because I was just, I don't know what got me started. I was the thing about choreography, which to me is so, because I'm not a dancer, I don't know how you guys do anything. It's so interesting. I don't know how you guys do it. It's like you're telling a story with movement and really good choreography is from my unknown. My opinion is, I guess just an outsider. To me, it's so specific to that song. It's almost like you can't even use that move in another song. An extreme example would be Michael Jackson's thriller. Okay, you're dancing like a zombie. You can't use those zombie moves in another video. It just won't work. And it's like, I don't know how you guys do that. I don't know how you even begin. Where do you begin when you choreograph a piece?

Phil Wright:

The creative process can be interesting for each individual choreographer. Everyone else has their own process. It's like writing. You may burn incense and then get in, go into a dark or something like that. Whatever happens to me. But the creative process is quite different from a lot for a lot of different people. For me, per se, I go to sleep with the music on. I wake up to the music, I listen to the lyrics as much as possible, and I get into a very creative mode where it's not manufactured. What I mean by that is it's not like, okay, I'm going to go here and think I'm going to go here, rather than just kind of letting my body settle in and let it happen. It's almost like, I don't know, cold reading, if you will, just off the whim, let's just go off of the cuff. And then that's where my creative juices start to flow. Now I get into a mode where I do it very subconsciously. I try not to block out hours to choreograph. I sort of just go out throughout my day and create movement and live life as easy as

Michael Jamin:

Possible. But then how do you remember if you're choreographing it on the fly, then how do you remember? What do you do? You film yourself?

Phil Wright:

Film myself. Yeah. Film myself real quick. It's like an idea. Writing. Oh, an idea. Lemme write that down.

Michael Jamin:

And when you're dancing, is it in your head or is it in your body? Where are you remembering these

Phil Wright:

Moves? Some of it is, is initiated with through feeling and emotion, man and heart. Some things just touch you all so much on an emotional level. That's why I say manufactured is going through your head and trying to say, okay, let me form these shapes on the dance floor. And

Michael Jamin:

He shapes,

Phil Wright:

Yeah, shapes and movement and how you would love to see your class move.

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's another thing. Now I'm thinking about you're choreographing just yourself, but you might have everyone, I might be doing something different. It has to mesh together. And

Phil Wright:

I'm thinking about the masses, man. I'm thinking about what I would want to choreograph and how would this put me in a mood? Let's just say like Beyonce's new Renaissance tour album I put on her album. I'm thinking about arenas, I'm thinking about. So I think of that, and that puts me in a mode of larger movement to please a larger crowd. Whereas you take that compared to TikTok dancing, you have to say it in this little

Michael Jamin:

Box. Yeah, right.

Phil Wright:

Please. You're more of a commercial. You're trying to sell or promote something.

Michael Jamin:

It's

Phil Wright:

Different. Yeah. It's much, much, much different.

Michael Jamin:

Are you watching other dancers and saying, oh my God, how do I do that? Or that move?

Phil Wright:

I get inspired all the time. I know some choreographers don't like to watch, but I love to watch. And you know what? To their point, you don't want to watch so much because subconsciously when you get into your creative process, you end up doing what they do. You know what I mean? It's like,

Michael Jamin:

Ah. Well, that's the thing. Do you feel like you have a defined feel right style that you don't want? Do you not want be inspired, too much inspiration from somebody else? Because you don't want it to bleed into your work. You don't want to dilute your voice.

Phil Wright:

My inspiration comes from hard work and ethic, or how they're working and how they're releasing their content rather than the actual material.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I see.

Phil Wright:

Or how are they promoting it or how are they editing it? You know what I mean? Oh, what's the new camera that they're using? Are they doing depth? You know what I mean? So those are the things that I look for. That's where my motivation,

Michael Jamin:

Because I was going to ask you, because if you saw someone with some move that you've never seen before, would you try it? Or would you feel like, no, that's just not mine can't.

Phil Wright:

There's nothing new under this sun. It's been done already. It's definitely been done already. I don't see anything. Oh, wow. You know what I mean? It's more, for me, it's about the work ethic more than

Michael Jamin:

Anything else. Interesting. So how

Phil Wright:

Are you changing the game from yesterday into tomorrow?

Michael Jamin:

Okay, so what's your thought on that? How are you doing that?

Phil Wright:

It's hard because, well, for me, I think there should be a, well, for me, I'm in a transition phase. In 2022, no, 2020, I sold my TV show to Disney Channel.

Michael Jamin:

Yes, I wanted to talk about that. But go, yeah, let's talk about it now then.

Phil Wright:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the big worry, and let's just put this footnote, the big worry of every dancer is that, okay, my time is running out.

Michael Jamin:

What

Phil Wright:

I do, what am I, I'm not dancing anymore. You know what I mean? So I was approached by Irene Drayer, who saw an article that was written on me teachers about parents and students dancing. She said, Hey, I think this is a TV show. I said, lady, you're wasting my time. I got to go teach class. She goes, no, I'm serious. Nine months later, we're in Disney's office. This is when Gary Marsh was head of television and programming at Disney Show. And he actually came to one of my classes and saw my class and was inspired. And nine months later, I was able to sell a TV show, a dance competition show to Disney Channel.

So let's just put that to the side really quick. My hope was, okay, yes, I'm out. I got something, I sold a show. I don't have to dance anymore, really. You know what I mean? I can be a personality now. I can promote myself in a different fashion. This is another mountain that I can climb and be successful at. Fast forward TV shows goes on. We do not so well, because it was during covid no's watching TV there. Everyone was watching CNN. So our timing was off. And I went back to the drawing board. I went back to teaching. But

Michael Jamin:

You see, it's a couple of interesting things. First of all, I don't think you would've sold that show had you not already built yourself up. I mean, you have a big following. So it's not like you were just the guy with an idea, Hey, here's a show. You are a guy who had built something already who went in and pitched a show, right? I mean, it's a big difference. But I don't think people realize that. A lot of people are like, I got an idea on your first date in la. If you said, I want to sell a Dan show. Okay, well, sorry, it's not going to happen. So you had to build it first. And then the other thing is interesting is that people think that you're never done with it. The journey never ends. Wherever you are in career is more that you have to do, and you're always thinking about the next thing. So yeah. So you aspire. Well, I was going to ask you. Yeah, because knowing that youth, you lose your youth in every creative industry, you have to be always thinking about the next thing. And so you're just to be more of this personality, which you already are. I mean, maybe you don't realize it. I realize it. When you're booked to go to Arizona, it's you. They're booking. It's not even your dance moves, it's you. You know what I'm saying?

Phil Wright:

I tell my students all the time, like dancers per se, we spent a great amount of deal of creating and ultimately making these artists look

Michael Jamin:

Great on stage,

Phil Wright:

Either on stage or we're promoting a commercial to sell something or whatnot. And a lot of times, and I've seen a lot of dancers go through this, they go through this real down phase because we spend so much energy making everyone else stars.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really?

Phil Wright:

As opposed to us being the actual star, we're stars, per se, among the dance community. But when it comes to the actual product of Target, target, target doesn't give to pennies and a crap about us. We can be replaced under their watch. But in our dance community, we're like, oh my God, Sarah's killing it. You know what I mean? But we're not, per se, really making our presence known and being our own bosses and being our own stars. And I think that was something that resonated with me. And I recognized very, very early in the game. So I wanted to put myself in the forefront to say, look, I know I'm helping you build your legacy, but at the same time, I need to build my own.

Michael Jamin:

So

Phil Wright:

That was a big, big, big thing for me.

Michael Jamin:

And so what do you do other than trying to sell TV shows? What do you do to do

Phil Wright:

That? I mean, ultimately that's the big goal right there. I just want to sell ips,

Be able to, and right now, I'm currently in acting classes. I take acting classes here as well. But I tell my students all the time, man, I have to open up so many doors. Open up all the doors that you can. I'm in acting class. I actually have two pictures next week with Disney and Nicole Nickelodeon. I'm on social media all the time. And I believe that there's three ways that you can do this. You can do this in person on social media, and you can do this on linear, on television. And if you can have those three lanes open, constantly rolling. When one door closed, God forbid we get hit with covid again. At least my online and television is rolling. Or if I don't have a TV show going right now, at least I'm in person traveling from here to there.

Michael Jamin:

Is that exhausting though? Traveling?

Phil Wright:

Oh, so

Michael Jamin:

Exhausting. So I mean, it's not like you want to do more of it. You're kind of okay with,

Phil Wright:

I mean, look, the reason why I'm okay with, it's because I'm so blessed to be able to create

Michael Jamin:

My own, to do it

Phil Wright:

And take downtime when I want to. I don't have a boss. I am. I'm the guy. So that's why there's a certain level of gratitude there. And there was a time where no one wanted me in their city. No one cared. So for some people to be like, oh my God, we will love to. We will pay X amount of dollars for you to come here.

Michael Jamin:

You camp out at one city for a week. Or will you go from Phoenix to Houston in one week?

Phil Wright:

I used to be able to go there and just chill out for the entire weekend or whatnot. No, I'll fly to New York, get off the plane, teach two or three classes, go back to the airport, go back home. The same. I want to be as efficient as possible. I want to be quick, fast. And for me, if I can make X amount of dollars in six hours with me just sleeping on a plane, then that's fine. You know what I mean? Whereas I used to travel in my red Mitsubishi to San Francisco for 200 bucks. You know what I mean? So it's a process. So it's a level of gratitude that goes with it. But I'm fast, man. I get in and I get out, and if whatever it takes to get it done, I get it done.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?

I guess you're a YouTuber, right? Are you in that community, that YouTube

Phil Wright:

Circle? I guess I made videos for a long time. I'm not as avid as I was before, but I was dropping videos every day. But now, here's the problem with what I was doing, is that I was using music that was licensed to these big artists. And I would get notices on my YouTube all the time and say, Hey, there's copyright infringement you can't monetize. So I never made money from my YouTube per se. You know what I mean?

Michael Jamin:

But I see people on Instagram or TikTok dancing to popular songs. I see

Phil Wright:

That. I do that all the time. But you have to understand that that influences third party companies to come after you and say,

Michael Jamin:

Sure it does. Oh my God,

Phil Wright:

We see how many views do you have on YouTube? Can you shoot this Friz commercial? Or can you do this

Michael Jamin:

Target? Oh, okay. So they're not monetizing, those people are not monetizing their Instagram that way. They're monetizing by getting brand deals or whatever.

Phil Wright:

But now, don't quote me on that because they may be monetizing. They may be. But I'm just talking about, for me, I never had the luxury of monetizing YouTube because of the copyright infringement clause. And

Michael Jamin:

On YouTube, did you teach yourself all this, or did you figure this out as you went? Or was someone helped you

Phil Wright:

Broke, gets creative really quick. I think we all established that, man, when you have nothing, man, when you're against the wall, you find ways to succeed. And fortunately, I was able to find a lane and make it work. A lot of my friends tell me today, they're like, I don't know how you did it,

Michael Jamin:

Man. Really? Yeah. Really.

Phil Wright:

And I knock on wood, man, because I'm so lucky.

Michael Jamin:

What did your family think of all this when you're starting out?

Phil Wright:

My wife is very supportive. I have a 3-year-old and a 2-year-old. So they're very young.

Michael Jamin:

No, I mean your family, your parents, my

Phil Wright:

Family at home. Well, my mom passed it 2015. And you know what? I think that had a lot to do with it as well, because a part of the notion of moving out to la I'm the baby of the family, so I was the last one to leave. So my whole motivation was to make her proud, come back home, buy her a bigger house, et cetera, et cetera. Consequently taking her life in 2015. And for some reason, and no matter what you believe in or whatever, I felt like as an artist, for me, the universe kind of gives you an exchange for some reason. And for some reason, my career, just

Michael Jamin:

Right after that, you felt there was an exchange.

Phil Wright:

I swear to you. I promise you. I promise you. It was an exchange. And I had not booked a single job in LA for two years. I get that news, and it was actually on the same day that I had booked my job, and my sister called me, she told me the news, and at that point, I went from on cloud nine to zero. None of it at all at that point. None of it. None of it matters. You know what I mean? You give these jobs and you give these companies and you give all of these achievements, so much power over you. You sort of block out the real necessity in life is life itself. So shortly after that, Mike, my career just, I went crazy and YouTube started popping off. Instagram started popping off. I started to make a name for myself. People started inquiring for me and everything. So it was a pretty wild period for me. It was emotionally kind of weird because I was appreciative, but not as appreciative as I would be if my mom were still

Michael Jamin:

Right. Yeah, it puts it all in perspective. So you must've been dealt. I mean, people don't realize the sacrifice. I don't know. I think a lot of people, you took a giant sacrifice. You left your family, and a lot of people don't want to do that. They talk about it, but they don't do it. And so everything you gained, you paid for, you paid it.

Phil Wright:

Like I said, I swear to you, I just always see it as an exchange. I always see it as an exchange. And I tell my students all the time, you work hard at it, it'll come. Talent is great. That's awesome to have. But two main things are the main reason why I'm always booked is because people like me,

Michael Jamin:

Man,

Phil Wright:

I love people. I love to talk to people. Hell, I invited you to my birthday party. I don't even know who

Michael Jamin:

You're, you did. I said, let's get you on my show.

Phil Wright:

But I love people and I love interacting and things like that. So I tell my students all the time, talent is great. It's good to have. It's a good weapon to have, but you have to be likable. You have to walk into a room and people light up because of you always have to stop if you can do that.

Michael Jamin:

And that's very interesting because what you're describing is people have to like you. What you're describing is that, that you're giving these people something you're actually, and it's not entitled. It's not like, Hey, look at me. I'm the star. What can I give you? How can I be nice to you? How can I be kind to you so that you'll like me as opposed to me, me, me, me. It's really putting the energy out

Phil Wright:

There would be at ease. People will never book me on their two year tour if I'm going to be a paint. Right? People are not going to write with you for nine months straight. And

Michael Jamin:

People talk. People talk. Yeah. I'm always just shocked when I'm on a set and some young actor or actress will behave. When don't you realize that when you leave, we all talk. We talk to our friends On other shows, you don't understand that. So be nice to people.

Phil Wright:

Right? Right. Absolutely. And then no matter how much you trust somebody, everyone has secrets that they're going to tell. So someone's going to secret to somebody else. And for whatever you think you trust, it's going to leak. But that's funny about our industry is because networking is a huge about our industry in the entertainment world, not just dancing, not just acting, not just writing, not just producing just in general. You have to network. I got hired to do an NBA commercial because one of the producer is friends with one of the parents students that I teach.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Phil Wright:

Literally, he was in the room and said, man, I need a choreographer. She goes, oh my God, this cool guy teaches my daughter. He goes, okay, cool. Send him the number.

Michael Jamin:

Well, you see, that's how it works. It's like you put the energy out there. It wouldn't have worked the other way around. If you had solicited the NBA or whoever, it wouldn't have worked. I'm a go away. But when you put yourself out there, you get discovered. It's the energy thing. Absolutely. And so it's the opposite of what so many people think. It's like people always begging, hire me, hire me. And it's not what you have to do. It's the other way around.

Phil Wright:

The moment I started to pour more into myself. That's when I started booking

Michael Jamin:

More. What do you mean pour more into yourself?

Phil Wright:

When I started to make my, when I prioritized me, the times wire knocking on the door, hello, hello. Hang on. Hey, look at me. Please, please, please. No one will give me a time. Yes,

Michael Jamin:

Nobody,

Phil Wright:

Nobody. But when I started getting my own stuff, creating my own videos that's on the street for no dime, no nothing, just pure investment in art, all of a sudden everyone started to gravitate towards me and say, oh, okay. Well, we'll hire you to come and teach at the studio. And look, when I was knocking at the door, I was only trying to make a buck. I was just trying to make a pig check. So it just,

Michael Jamin:

But think how empowering that is because you're telling people you don't have to ask for permission. Just do it. It's empowering. You get to do it. You don't have to ask, just do it already.

Phil Wright:

Yeah, just do it. And we're so free to do that. And that's why I always encourage dancers and any other artist to just give yourself that power. Believe in yourself that way, because that's when you attract other giants to be a part of it.

Michael Jamin:

But that takes me to the next thing, which is you're putting yourself out there. You're exposing yourself to judgment, to ridicule. You're going to get haters. You hate. Everyone does. Yes. So what is your response to that? How do you deal with that?

Phil Wright:

I mean, for every one hater, I have 10 people who love

Michael Jamin:

Me, right? But you see the hater first. I see

Phil Wright:

Hater. It's like the hat that drops down on the stage. Everyone's doing amazing, and the hat drops

Michael Jamin:

Down. I

Phil Wright:

Wonder who's going to pick up that hat,

Michael Jamin:

Right?

Phil Wright:

But always, I don't know. Obviously there's a part of me that is a little disturbed by the hater. I'm like, you always ask yourself why? What possessed you to get your two thumbs? I just go to chitchatting like that. And I watch a lot of Gary V. I watch a lot of motivational speakers, and there's always things that they say to kind of get me uplifted, but I'm not going to sit up here and pretend like, oh, they don't bother me. And everything like that. Or the cliche, they make me work harder. I'm bothered by it. Absolutely. Because my fault is I want to please everybody.

Michael Jamin:

And

Phil Wright:

The truth is, you're not going to be able to do

Michael Jamin:

It. But how do you deal with, do you block them? Do you talk with them? What do you do?

Phil Wright:

There was a point in time where I just unfollow. I was following people unnecessarily just because I want it to be in the face, and I want it to be. But now I've sort of shaved down that if I look, I'll give you an example. If I was go on my Instagram page, I should be able to look at posts without even putting on the value and liking it. Everyone I follow is someone who I stand by and trust with my eyes closed. It's like you're watching a video and you don't even have to turn on the Valium and they're just talking. You like it because you just like it. Right? That's whoever I follow is that's the motivation that comes behind

Michael Jamin:

That. But when someone comes on your page though, and they call you, whatever they say about you, do you block them? What do you do at all? Do you just ignore them? What do you do? I

Phil Wright:

Don't get too many, to be quite honest. If there's, they come in sporadic moments, but if there's an unnecessary comment, I delete it immediately.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. You delete it, but you don't block 'em. Yeah,

Phil Wright:

Because I don't even block 'em, because I've blocked some people before. It's very rare,

Michael Jamin:

Because

Phil Wright:

Really got to understand, I work with children, I work with kids. I work with a lot of kids. So that's not much negativity around the world to say anything bad about a child. Every now and then, I do other pieces of content where I'm not with children all the time, and then I get wacky comments or whatever. But I would immediately delete it because, just because I think negativity attracts more negativity. Positivity attracts more positivity. So I just immediately delete

Michael Jamin:

It. Yeah. I don't want to see it. I don't want to see

Phil Wright:

It. I don't even really read it all the way through. It's just see something. There was sometimes I put somebody in check. I kind of have checked somebody

Michael Jamin:

And did that work?

Phil Wright:

Yeah. Oh, because then all of my fans and all of my people are like,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I mean, I ask you, because I'm relatively new to this. And I always ask people, how do you deal with this? Because it's putting yourself out there. And I think this keeps a lot of people from actually putting themselves out there. The negativity.

Phil Wright:

Yeah. No, but you know what? Sometimes it's a blessing in disguise.

Michael Jamin:

How's that?

Phil Wright:

It allows the people who love you to come to bat for you.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's true.

Phil Wright:

They come to bat. And sometimes it's okay. So the next time you get a hater, a writer writing, just fall back. Don't even say anything.

Michael Jamin:

I do that sometimes. I'm not as good as you are. I'm not as involved.

Phil Wright:

Just fall back. Just fall back and just let, because

Michael Jamin:

Sometimes you don't get that reaction. Sometimes you get other people saying, yeah, they jump on. That's what I'm worried about.

Phil Wright:

But then that's when you swipe and delete real.

Michael Jamin:

That's when you just never know. I get some of that. I think someone's going to defend me, and instead I get someone else piling on. I like, oh, man.

Phil Wright:

But you know what? It is good to know that you have people that support you in a way that they will. I think that's important to do every now and then. But for the most part, I erase it, take it off. Because I don't want more people to be attracted to that idea of negativity. I just can't. I don't.

Michael Jamin:

Do you still collaborate with other dancers and choreographers or No, not so much anymore.

Phil Wright:

Not too much. I used to, not so much, because my thought process is for the next 10 years, I want to get into a world where sitting behind a desk and I'm able to create, there are handful, few,

Michael Jamin:

But create what?

Phil Wright:

Ideas, ideas, television shows, also selling recreational programs. Like there's this program I was just on, America's Got Talent, and we went on as the Parent Jam, so where kids and parents can dance with one another, which was after that. So I'm trying to see if we can license that in recreational centers and dance studios, and maybe I can sort of get that abroad. But that's a work in progress.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, it seems real smart, this little niche you got yourself, because parents will spend anything on their kids

Phil Wright:

And they will do anything for their kids,

Michael Jamin:

Right? So

Phil Wright:

They would get on the dance line. That's what sort of kind of propelled the idea, because they were able to get on, oh, I'm a lawyer, dude, but I love my daughter, so I'll do it.

Michael Jamin:

Right. They're at that age until they get older.

Phil Wright:

Just thinking about trying to expand that idea, trying to be in that world, trying to land up a couple gigs as an actor, hopefully, fingers crossed. Trying to pitch another idea for a television show. Just trying to fill the void of being an entertainer fully.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I'm inspired by what you've done. I really am. Because who are you? You're guy. You're just a guy who built it. That's all. You're a guy who built it.

Phil Wright:

You know what? It gets hard. Obviously. There are times where I work a little too much.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really?

Phil Wright:

Yeah, man, that's the tough part. Balancing

Michael Jamin:

You mean? Being on the road?

Phil Wright:

Being on the road and just not working. And it's hard because we're working when we're not working.

Michael Jamin:

Yes.

Phil Wright:

There's no punching and punch out clock with us.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Phil Wright:

So it's tough. So getting the brain to relax and just actually sit down and watch a movie and not worry about camera angles or how did he say this line to make him funny?

Michael Jamin:

Really?

Phil Wright:

I've lost, and which is I'm trying to get back to. I've lost the concept of just being a consumer.

Michael Jamin:

Well, what's interesting though, because when you go to acting, the first thing they try to get, you do this, be in your body, but you are a dance, are in your, I mean, that's something you probably know better than other actors. How to be comfortable in your body and how not to be afraid of movement. That might look weird. You know what I'm saying? It's like you have this comfort in you, and also you're just naturally comfortable. You using a naturally comfortable person.

Phil Wright:

I'm fine with who I am, and I had to work on that to be okay with, because I'm from very the deep down south of Miami, Florida, so I didn't speak as well as I do now. I still that now my appearance, I come from a city where they put goatee, thinner mouths, pants. It was a very rough part of the city. And I'm still working on that, just continuously molding myself. So it takes time and it's a process.

Michael Jamin:

What do you think of this? So now that you're getting into acting or in the acting classes, what do you think of it? I mean, what's your,

Phil Wright:

It's so hard, bro.

Michael Jamin:

People don't realize it. You know what? I made a post the other day about how hard and people got on me for that, because laying bricks is hard. Well, yes, laying bricks is hard, but being on camera and being an actor, being good at it is hard.

Phil Wright:

It's incredibly hard. Now, I will say, I have the comfortable state of performing. I'm cool with you. Get me standing up. I got my script. Okay, good. All right, good. Let's go. I love that. I love that adrenaline rush. But the words on the page are, we're fighting. And then my identity does this. And I have a big problem with sometimes ad adlibbing

Michael Jamin:

Goes,

Phil Wright:

The writers, they're hired for a reason. Okay. Yeah. You're going to make it better.

Michael Jamin:

Well, there's truth to that. I mean, if you were a dancing in a big number with a bunch of dancers, you don't get to ad-lib. If everyone's doing, you got to do your piece.

Phil Wright:

Yeah. He would always say, if it's on the page, it was well thought out. And that's the way I want you to say it. Unless you're Leonard DiCaprio or Denzel can't do what you want, what

Michael Jamin:

Was your reason for going for ad-Libbing is you couldn't remember it. Or because

Phil Wright:

Memorizing lines are hard.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's hard.

Phil Wright:

Yeah, very hard. And not only that, memorizing and then attaching feeling and emotion to it. It's incredibly hard. And then doing that in different ways and facets of it. You know what I mean? And then taking direction, okay, I did it this way. Okay, Phil, can we do that on the up now? But

Michael Jamin:

Maybe being an on-air personality is more, as opposed to an actor, maybe that's more your thing.

Phil Wright:

Definitely. That's where I live, my personality,

Michael Jamin:

Right?

Phil Wright:

The acting world. The reason why I keep challenging myself in that way is because I never know what if another TV show does pop off for me, I have to be ready. I can't drop that ball. You know what I mean? And it also keeps me constantly reading. It

Michael Jamin:

Keeps

Phil Wright:

Me, and that's how I kind of see it. I go to acting class once a week. I have that. And I block out that time specifically for that, just because it's not only just for my goals and aspirations, but it's more for training and reading and understanding scripts

Michael Jamin:

And enriching yourself. Yeah. Yeah.

Phil Wright:

Myself. And I love comedy. That's why I was attracted to your page. You're naturally funny. So dude,

Michael Jamin:

None of it's easy. I know. I hope I make it look easy. I made a post the other day. It's like I got a lot of stuff I don't post, because when I watch it the next day go, this sucks. I'm not posting it. And then people are like, put it up anyway. No, I'm not going to put it up. No, I'm

Phil Wright:

Okay. So, so I have an opinion about that. So fuck. Okay, and this is quick story. I know we're moving, but I post everything,

Michael Jamin:

Everything.

Phil Wright:

Every single thing that is in my camera roll. I try to post in some way. I

Michael Jamin:

Try to. Why?

Phil Wright:

Because look, I feel like we're in a service business, and you hear this whole slogan of quality, of a quantity, this and that. And my whole notion is this, man, look, one man's trash is another man's treasure. And just hear me out.

Michael Jamin:

I'm going to listen to you

Phil Wright:

Out. One man's trash is another man's treasure. I'll give an example. My biggest YouTube video is baby shark.

Michael Jamin:

Okay?

Phil Wright:

Me in the middle of the classroom, baby shark. Guess how many views that

Michael Jamin:

Have? I don't. 10 million. I dunno.

Phil Wright:

Now, mind you, igraph for mc hammer, right? I've been on the road. I've choreographed commercials, national commercials, I've danced with card B. All of this, my top grossing video, Michael, on YouTube has a quarter of a billion

Michael Jamin:

Views. Oh my God. Wow.

Phil Wright:

And it's me standing in the middle of a play saying, baby shark,

Michael Jamin:

Isn't that weird?

Phil Wright:

Now let's go back.

Michael Jamin:

Oh my God.

Phil Wright:

As a choreographer, as a professional choreographer, I look at that and say, hell no. I'm not posting that. I would get crapped on easily. I posted that, and I say that. I tell you that story just because that put me on a different map.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I'm sure it did

Phil Wright:

Put me on a different map. And had I been so particular about that moment, had I been so judgmental and critical on myself, and try hard and try to pick the bits out of it. Yeah, I know you're going to have a hard No,

Michael Jamin:

You make a good case. No, you make a very compelling case.

Phil Wright:

Yeah. And it is a battle. It's a battle. Because we go through it all the time. We want our best material to be viewed at all times. But I'm telling you, you are in the service business. It does not matter if one person doesn't like it. I'm telling you, there are going to be people out in the middle of America in Idaho who thinks that joke is funny.

Michael Jamin:

I know

Phil Wright:

Not everyone's going to laugh, but I get it. And guess what? That might be the kid that might make a difference in your

Michael Jamin:

Career, right? Well, the thing is, because I totally see where you're coming from, but today, for things to really go viral, it has to be almost controversial. It has to be so extreme. It almost has to be. That's why hate does really well on the internet, because it gets people riled up. And I often say to myself, yes, but is that what I want to be? What I'm saying is that what I, and I know we're not really talking about that. We're talking about jokes that maybe aren't that funny. But I also have to worry about people, my colleagues, my comedy writer, friends, and I have many that follow me, some bigger than I am. Many bigger than I'm, and I don't want them to think I'm terrible at my job.

Phil Wright:

And that's the problem, though. That is the problem. Because ultimately, not all the time, but the people you least expected are the people who are going to put money in your pocket. People that you're worried about aren't the people usually put money in your pocket or give you an opportunity. So you have to take that into consideration. And yes, there's a streamline there. Don't just put up trash,

Michael Jamin:

Obviously.

Phil Wright:

But you should be a little bit more lenient with yourself and your art when it comes to posting and marketing yourself

Michael Jamin:

In the way. But Phil, you have given, I tell you've given this a lot of thought. You've given all of this a lot of thought.

Phil Wright:

It's because of the experience, though. That's only because of what I've been through. The top jobs that I've booked in my entire life sometimes aren't the most enjoyable. They're not. And guess what? Those top jobs don't even pay top dollar.

Michael Jamin:

Really. Really?

Phil Wright:

No. Obviously, okay, my TV show, yes. Yeah. But I'm talking about working for a national commercial because you also have to understand that choreographers don't have a union. Dancers have a union, but choreographers, I choreographed a commercial last month, and the dancers made more than I did.

Michael Jamin:

Really?

Phil Wright:

It's because I'm my own boss and I don't have a union to protect me.

Michael Jamin:

Tions. Do you have an agent or manager, though?

Phil Wright:

I do have an agent. I do. I work with a manager who's on a theatrical side.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. Okay, so they don't handle this part. No.

Phil Wright:

No. But you know what? Honestly, and it took me a long time to get to there, because I just hate, I don't like the middleman.

Michael Jamin:

I

Phil Wright:

Don't like people negotiating for me and telling me what I'm worth. I hate that I grind my teeth every day about it, because I just feel like there's a slew of roster of people that they're trying to satisfy.

Michael Jamin:

And

Phil Wright:

Bottom of the baro, I just got added onto their team. They have to come in. I don't like kissing ass. I don't want to bring you cookies because you,

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's another thing. A lot of people think that an agent or manager is going to make your career, and I'm kneeling. No, guys, you got to make your own career, even if you have one of them, you got to make your own career.

Phil Wright:

Right? And even in that motion, I do believe in entertainment lawyers. You do have to have,

Michael Jamin:

Yes,

Phil Wright:

Get you a good lawyer, keep the contracts and get you in good standings. But yes, I currently do have an agent, and we're happy. We're good. Everything's working. Everything's

Michael Jamin:

So interesting. So we work in different parts of the field, entertainment. And I say the same thing, agent, the manager, sorry, the lawyers worth every penny. The lawyer. I just got an email from my lawyer for a contract worth every penny

Phil Wright:

Worth, every penny. But sometimes, I don't know, man, once again, this is a challenge for me. I've been trying to get around to just trusting and letting them handle that section. Whereas I was always in control email fill Wright in seven, and I was the one who's, Hey, this is Max, not Max, this

Michael Jamin:

Is

Phil Wright:

Max. Phil is busy at the moment. What would you like to book? You know what

Michael Jamin:

I mean? Yeah, right. That way you're not the bad guy. It's smart to do that as well. Exactly. That way you're not the bad guy. Bad

Phil Wright:

Guy.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. You got to figure, I don't know, man. You're very impressive. You got it all. You're younger than me, and you've got it more figured out than me. So I feel like you're impressive.

Phil Wright:

I'm climbing up the ladder, man. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

You're doing great. You're doing, I'm absolutely very impressed by everything you've built. And let me tell everyone where they can find you as we wrap up our, so you have a website, dance with phil.com, check, and also follow everyone. Follow him on social media. Is it the same? What is your handle? I didn't look that up.

Phil Wright:

Social media. Instagram is at Phil write, that's PHIL, Wright, W-R-I-G-H-T.

Michael Jamin:

And just go check out what he's doing. It's just very positive. You carved out a small little niche for yourself, and by giving, now you get, it's just like you're saying it's a trade. Everything's a trade. Yeah.

Phil Wright:

And I think even, I'm going to take a nice insert of this, and I'm posting up my Instagram. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

You'll

Phil Wright:

Absolutely.

Michael Jamin:

You know what though? It's funny when you mentioned mc Hammer, I actually directed him on the phone right here where I'm sitting, but it wasn't on Zoom, so I took a picture of my phone, but that's it. I go, hammer, I'm taking a picture of the phone.

Phil Wright:

He's awesome.

Michael Jamin:

He's awesome. Yeah, he was very sweet. This was

Phil Wright:

10, 15 years ago. So legendary, man. So legendary.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. No kidding. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, Phil, thank you so much. Phil Wright, everyone, go check him out. It was a real pleasure talking with you. Wonderful conversation. Alright everyone, we got more great stuff next week. Until then, just keep creating. Be like Phil,

Phil Wright:

Love it.

Michael Jamin:

So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

Show Notes

Sheila Heti Website: https://www.sheilaheti.com/

Sheila Heti on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheila_Heti

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Sheila Heti:

That's what I was thinking.

Michael Jamin:

It was work harder.

Sheila Heti:

I was like, I got to work harder than any other writer alive.

Michael Jamin:

And what did that work look like to you?

Sheila Heti:

Just always writing and always not being satisfied and being a real critic of my work and trying to make it better and trying to be more, try to get it to sound and more interesting and figure out what my sentences were and letting myself be bad and repeat myself until I got better. And I don't think that I ever let that go. I'm not sitting here today saying, I work harder than any other writer alive. I do remember having that feeling when I was young. That's what I need to do. That's the only way

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.

Michael Jamin:

What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about today? Well, ladies and gentlemen, I'm talking about, honestly, one of the greatest, I feel, one of the greatest writers of my generation. Yep, yep. Her name is Sheila Hedy. She's the author of I guess 11 books, including Pure Color, although it's spelled with a U, the Canadian Way, a Garden of Creatures, motherhood, how Should a Person Be? And her forthcoming book, alphabetical Diaries. And she's just an amazing talent. So she's an author, but I don't describe her this way. And by the way, I'm going to talk about Sheila for about 59 minutes, and then at the end I'll let her get a word and then I'll probably cut her off. But I have to give her a good proper introduction. She's really, really that amazing of a writer. So author isn't really the right word. She really is, in my opinion, an artist who paints with words.

And if you imagine going up to a Van Gogh painting, standing right up next to it, and then you see all these brushstrokes, and then you take a step back and you're like, okay, now I see the patterns of the brushstrokes. And you take a little step back, oh, the patterns form an image. Then another step back, you say, oh, that's a landscape. It really is like that with her writing. She has these images that she paints with words, and then they form bigger thoughts and you pull back and it's really amazing what she does and how she kind of reinvents herself with each piece. And so I'm so excited and honored she for you to join me here so I can really talk more about this with you. Thank you for coming.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, thanks. That introduction made me so happy. Thank you for saying all that.

Michael Jamin:

Lemme tell you by the way, how I first discovered you. So I have a daughter, Lola, she's 20, she's a writer, and we trade. I write something we trade. It's really lovely that we get to talk about. And so she's off at school, but she left a book behind and I'm like, all right, what's this book she left behind? Because that way I can read it and we can talk about that, have our book club. And she left Pure Color. And I was like, oh, I like the cover, so I'll take a look at it. And what I didn't realize, it was the perfect book to discover you by because it's book about among other things, about a father's relationship with his daughter. So I text her, I say, I'm reading pure color. She goes, Sheila Hedy's, one of my favorite authors. If I could write anybody, it would be her. I'm like, all right, well, I got to continue reading this. And then a couple of days later, I get to the part and I send her a text. I say, you and me would make a great leaf. And she goes, that's my favorite part. The tree. That's my favorite part.

You're also an interviewer. You've interviewed some amazing writers. Joan Didion, Margaret Atwood, big shots. And so I'm sure as an interviewer, you give a lot of thought to your first question. So I was trying to, I better give a lot of thought to my first question, and I kept coming back to the same one, which is pure color. It's such a big swing. If you were to pitch me this idea, you'd say, I'm going to write a book. It's about a father's relationship with his daughter, but it's also about a woman's unrequited love with her friend, but it's also about the soul and what it means to have a life. I'd say, I don't know, Sheila, that's kind of a big swing. I don't know about this, but you hit it out of the park, you did it. It was beautifully done. And so my first question is, you come up with an idea like this, where do you get the nerve to think that you can actually pull this off? This is really where do you get the nerve to think that, okay, I'm going to do this.

Sheila Heti:

The nerve.

Michael Jamin:

Well, it's such a big swing. It's like, how do you know you can do this? Do you know what I'm saying?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I don't know that I could do it. So it's nice to hear. I mean, I don't think that you ever think you're going to be able to finish the book that you start, and then when you finish a book, you never think you're ever going to start a new one. That's sort of where I am right now. In that confused place. There's a part of it that always feels like, I dunno how to explain it. I mean, I don't know how to answer that question. It's a weird process. There's no process. There's no system to doing it, and then you hope you did it. You feel good and it feels done, but you dunno how you ever got there.

Michael Jamin:

And how do you know you arrived? How do you know when it's time to quit on something? And do you ever quit on something?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. Yeah, A lot. A lot. But usually not like three or four years in, usually 60 pages in or something like that.

Michael Jamin:

60

Sheila Heti:

Pages is when you start thinking this is not working.

Michael Jamin:

Is it a gut feeling? How do you know

Sheila Heti:

Your curiosity runs out?

Michael Jamin:

Your curiosity runs out. Okay, so you get bored by it yourself?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Is that what you're saying?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, it's just like, that was fun. That was nice. That was a good couple of weeks. I was really excited. I really thought this was going somewhere. And then it just ends. It's like a relationship. You think, oh, this is so great, I'm going to be with this person. And then after six months you're like,

Michael Jamin:

I was kidding myself. But you're writing. I have so much I want to say, it seems like you reinvent yourself with each piece. You know what I'm saying? It's like pure color is very, very different from how should a person be, which I was like, okay, I want to read this. I'm not sure how should a person be, which is extremely different from alphabetical diaries, which is almost like an experiment. And I wonder, do you get pushback from your agent or your publisher? Do they want you to do the same thing? We know it works.

Sheila Heti:

No, I think that at this point there's no expectation of that. When I wrote my second book, there was a feeling like that's not the first one. And there was some disappointment and the publisher said, this book doesn't count as your next book. In part, I think it was so different, but I think at this point that's, I mean, I've been publishing for 20 years. That's not really what people say to me anymore.

Michael Jamin:

Really? What do they say? They say, oh good, this is fresh. And it's more from you.

Sheila Heti:

No, I mean, I guess I changed publishers a lot more than other people do. So my publisher of motherhood didn't like pure color, so they rejected it. So I found a different publisher and the publisher of Tickner, my second book didn't like how should a person be? So I found a different publisher. So I think I move around a lot for that reason.

Michael Jamin:

Is that common with authors? You have to tell me all about this author thing? No, it's not really common.

Sheila Heti:

No. Usually you have one publisher and one editor and you just stick with them for a long time. So

Michael Jamin:

It seems though you came up through the art. Alright, I have this idea of who you are from reading your books. You have, it's all very personal what you write and which makes it brave. It's brave for a couple of reasons. It's brave because you're being so vulnerable, you're putting yourself out there, but it's also brave. I feel like you're trying something new each time and that could fail. And so that to me is part of what makes your writing so exciting. But do you have any expectation when you're writing something which is so different, do you have an expectation of your reader how you want them to react?

Sheila Heti:

I mean, I want them to get to the end of the book. That's what I want. I want to draw them through, but I don't think I have a feeling like, oh, I want them to be sad on this page and I want them to be curious of this page and feel this way on this page. I just want them to be interested enough to get to the end. So how do I keep that momentum up and how some people conversation, they have long monologues, they're like a monologue, but I'm not because I'm always afraid people are going to lose interest. So I kind of feel like the same with my book. I'm always afraid that somebody's going to lose interest. So I'm always trying to keep it moving,

Michael Jamin:

But it's not an emotional reaction. I mean, your writing is very philosophical to me. When I'm reading your work, I feel like maybe this is my theory about what you have, and I'm sure it's not right, but it's that there are passages which I feel are so rich and so smart, and I have so much thought that I have to go back and read it again. So I'm wondering if that's what you're thinking. I want to write something that makes people have to read it again.

Sheila Heti:

No, I never think that because a very fast reader, and I don't reread passages and I don't read slowly. So for me, I'm always thinking that people are reading. I'm always imagining the person reading kind of fast,

Michael Jamin:

But thought. I mean some of them are really, some of your thoughts are very deep and very profound, and I'm like, I'm not sure if I understood all this. I got to read it again. I mean, don't you think? No.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, I guess so. I don't know. I don't really think about that. I don't really think about the person, the reader in that way of like, are they going to have to read this again? Is this going to be hard for them to understand? I think my language is very straightforward. Yeah. I don't know how I think about the reader. I think of myself as the reader. So I'm really writing it so that I like every sentence. I like the way it turns. I like the pictures it makes.

Michael Jamin:

But when you say I want them to get to the end, what are you hoping they'll do at the end? Is there any hope or expectation?

Sheila Heti:

Well, I think especially in pure color, the end is really important. It kind of makes the whole book makes sense. And motherhood too, and maybe less how should a person be and less alphabetical diaries. But I think in some cases, a book, I'm somebody who doesn't always read books to the end. I like getting taste of different author's minds and so on. But I think in the case of some books, you have to read it to the end to really understand the whole, so that's in the case of pure color, why I wanted people to get to the end

Michael Jamin:

Because

Sheila Heti:

It makes the beginning mean something different. If you've read.

Michael Jamin:

It does. I mean it is, and it's about processing grief. So do you outline when you come up with an idea, where do you begin?

Sheila Heti:

Well, with pure color, I thought I want to write a book about the history of art criticism. So I always start off really far away from where I end up. I always think that I want to write a book of nonfiction and I'm not a good nonfiction writer, so it always ends up being a novel. But I think I usually start off with an, well, in the case of this book, I also started off with this title that I had in my dream. The title was Critics Bayer, BARE. So I was thinking about art criticism and so on, but then I don't know, the books kind of take on their own direction. I never really understood when people said that they had characters that sort of did things that they didn't expect. But I feel like that is true sometimes of the book as a whole. It moves in a direction I didn't expect, so I couldn't outline.

Michael Jamin:

You don't outline all. And so does it require you to discover what the story is then once you find it, toss out the stuff that's not the story or

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, I basically write way too much and then just cut and try to find the story and move things in different orders and try to find the plot after. I've written a ton of stuff already,

Michael Jamin:

Because I know from reading, you come from the art world, you're an artist and I think you hang out with artists, people, so you talk about what art is, is that right or no, do not shatter what I think of now. That's not it

Sheila Heti:

Mean and relationships and all that kind of

Michael Jamin:

Stuff and relationships. Because I mean, I don't know, it seems like that's why I say you're an artist. You have these conversations even about what art is. And do you draw inspiration from paintings when you approach?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, I'm interested in the book as art. I think more than storytelling. I'm interested in the book as sort of an experience that you're undergoing in different way from just the experience of being told a story. I don't think that I'm so interested probably in the things that a lot of other novelists are interested in, character and plot and conflict and all those things.

Michael Jamin:

Well, it's really, I've heard you say this, it's really, you're writing various forms of you and it's very personal and very intimate. But you also made the distinction in something I read where there's Sheila, the author, then there's Sheila, the character. Is that right?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I mean, in two of the books there's kind of a character that sort of stands in a way for me, but it never really, it doesn't feel like a direct transcription of myself or my life or my thoughts. There's always this feeling of maybe it's like how actors are, there's a part of yourself that goes into the character and there's other parts of yourself that are left out.

Michael Jamin:

And so I was going to say, is there stuff about you that you leave out, for example? I mean, how should a person be? Or alphabetical diaries, it feels like we're talking about you, right?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. Well, how should a person be felt? A lot like a character pretty, I was thinking about Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan. This was like 2005, and Britney Spears and these kind of women in culture that were bad girls and doing things sort of the subject of so much attention and so narcissistic or considered Narcissistic and the Hills, which was a show that I really loved. And sort of thinking about this character in the book being a voice that was somewhere between me and those girls. So there was this, this layering on of personalities, which I'm not thinking about. What does it mean to try to be a celebrity? What does it mean to be one? To be looked at, to idolize oneself? Those are my diaries. So there wasn't a sense of a character in the same way, but because the sentences are separated from one another, I guess it's like I don't feel like I'm telling anybody anything about my life. There's no anecdote in there.

Michael Jamin:

But I see that's the thing. And we'll just talk about alphabetical diaries because you're telling with such an, let me tell people what it's, so it's basically an ordinary diary is chronological. This is what I did today and this is tomorrow, whatever. But you grouped your diary by the first letter of each sentence, which organized, and this is again, another high degree of difficulty. This could have easily been gimmicky, but it was a rethinking of what a diary is. And when I say patterns emerge, so for example, when you get to D, these was do not whatever or do this or that. So you hear, okay, so here's a person creating rules for themselves. And then an E was even though, so now they're creating rules, but creating exceptions for these rules, making allowances. And so what you have is, and was so interesting about it, many of these thoughts were contradictory.

So you're painting a picture of this person, but in one sentence, okay, maybe she's dating this guy. And the next sentence, this other guy, I'm like, well, what's going on here? Then I realize, oh, this is not chronological. And so I'm getting a complete picture of this person, which is so interesting, but, so I know who I guess know who you are, but I don't know who you are today. I know who you are as this arching thing in your life, which is so fricking interesting. And that was where the thought process going into this,

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, mean. So it's like 10 years of diaries and I put it into Excel and the a z function. So it's completely alphabetical first letter of the sentence and then the second letter and the third letter. And it was just, I mean, I guess I wanted to see exactly that. What happens if you look at yourself in that way? Do you see patterns? Do you understand yourself in a different way? Not narratively, but as a collection of themes or Yeah, exactly. That a scientific or sort of a cross section of yourself.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Sheila Heti:

And it worked that way. I think with the diaries, what you do see is, oh, there are sort of these recurring thoughts and these recurring themes and these recurring ways of perceiving the world and perceiving yourself that persists over 10 years. That actually the one self, you think of yourself as this thing that's constantly changing through time and especially a diary gives you that feeling, but then when you do it alphabetical, the self looks like a really static kind of thing in way, no, I'm actually just these few little bubbles of concerns that don't change,

Michael Jamin:

That keep recurring when, by the way, when people say everything's been done before everything's been written, it's like, well, you haven't read Sheila Heady. Start reading hers. This is different. This why's so interesting about, that's why I think you're such an amazing writer, and it totally worked. Totally. You get a picture of this person and the recurring themes and recurring worries and, and even one of them, some things that struck me, there was one passage where it's like you go into a bookstore and you're like, isn't this also novels? Isn't it also unimportant? And I'm like, no, if it was, you wouldn't be doing this. So this was just a thought that you had at one point. It's not how you feel. It's how you felt at this one moment, right?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, yeah. Literary fiction. Yeah. Like what a little tiny thing that is.

Michael Jamin:

But when people, okay, so now we have this picture of you and when you go do, let's say book signings or whatever, and people come up to you, they must have a parasocial relationship with you where they feel they know you. Your writing is so intimate. And what's your response to that?

Sheila Heti:

I think that's nice. I mean, I think that that's kind of the feeling you want people to have is it is your soul or your mind or whatever that you're trying to give people. And so if somebody feels that they know you well, in a certain sense they do. I mean, obviously not that well, they know

Michael Jamin:

What you share, but there's, okay, I don't know what kind of music you like. I've read to all this stuff, but I know your insecurities and fears, but I don't know what you think is funny. I don't know what music you like. There's stuff you held back.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, absolutely. But I think that's like, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. People aren't really very weird with me. Ed books or things, people are just pretty nice. And I never get this. I, I've rarely had interactions that feel creepy or weird or presumptuous or any of those things.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I'm not even going even that far, but they feel like they must feel like they know you certainly, but they know what you share. They know as much as you share. Right?

Sheila Heti:

These

Michael Jamin:

Kind of brave, bold decisions you make to create all this stuff. Is there a writer whose work you emulated in the beginning? Where do you begin to come up with this stuff? Was there someone who you wanted to write? Just like,

Sheila Heti:

I mean, I really loved Dostoevsky and Kafka and the heavy hitters. Yeah, I mean, I just loved all the greatest writers,

Michael Jamin:

But did you want to write like them?

Sheila Heti:

No, I mean, I think the closest I ever felt like I wanted to write a writer was, do you know Jane Bowles? BOW Elliot? She was married to Paul Bulls.

Michael Jamin:

No, to me, much of your work felt a little bit like it. Tall Cals, some of it works. Some of it was very ethereal and meditative.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, I mean, I think Jane Bowles was the only one that I really felt myself imitating her sentences. She wrote a book called Two Serious Ladies, which I still really love. That was the only time when I felt like I was falling into somebody else's cadences and rhythms and so on. And

Michael Jamin:

What happened when

Sheila Heti:

That was with my first book, the Middle Stories, and then the second book was written was so different. The second book I wrote was in such a different style that left me, but maybe there's still a way in which I still do. I think she's probably the writer that I write the most, if anyone. But I mean, she only wrote one book. So it's a very different kind of life than the one that I've had. No, I'm just always just trying to keep myself interested. So I think that I don't ever want to, I a very, I just want it to be fun for me. And so if I was to write the same book again, it wouldn't be fun. And books take five years to Write, or this diary book took more than 10 years to edit. So by the time I'm done a book, no, I'm such a different person than I was in some way when I started, even though I just said that you don't really change, but there's a way in which you get tired of thinking about the same things over,

Michael Jamin:

But then you think it would be hard to not constantly tinker with it. Isn't that part of the problem?

Sheila Heti:

I like constantly tinkering with it. That's fun.

Michael Jamin:

But then you have to let go. But how do you let go of it though?

Sheila Heti:

Well, at a certain point you start making it worse. You're like, oh, I think I'm starting to make it worse. You start to become self-conscious, and then you start to want to correct it, and then you start to want it to sort of be the person that you are today rather than the person you were five years ago. But you've got to honor the person that was five years ago that started the book. So you can't carry it on so far that you become, you've changed so much that now you're a critic of the book that's going to destroy the book.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. See, that's so interesting. That's something I think about quite a bit. Yeah. How do I just let it go? And that someone else, it's funny when you talk about the language, because that's one thing that struck me about pure color. Your sentences are written in very, they're very, it's kind of brief, very, I dunno what the best way to describe it, but it's almost terse. And to be honest, if you had told, as I'm reading this, I could have thought this was said 150 years ago, and then occasionally you say you make a reference to something modern Google, and I'm like, oh, wait a minute, this takes space today. So that was a conscious, obviously decision that you made to kind of give it a timelessness.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, I always kind of want that because I think that's my hope for a book is that it could be understood in a hundred years or 500 years, or you need Plato today, you want to write something that people could understand in a thousand years.

Michael Jamin:

But you know what I'm saying, the language, it almost felt, but your language is different though, in an alphabetical diary. Well, obviously since it's a diary, but man, so to me it's like you're not doing, like I said, you're not doing the same thing. I don't know, it could have been two different authors. That's what I'm saying. I guess it felt like two very different pieces and it was just wonderful. But when you say, so what then? Because like I said, you have these art friends, I have this whole life for you, you have these because you went to art, you studied art, and you hang out with a bunch of artists and you talk about art, and I want to know what these conversations are because we don't talk about art and TV writing. No one, we don't think we're doing art, but I feel like that's what you guys are doing. So do you talk about what the whole point of art is?

Sheila Heti:

I think I did when I was younger,

Michael Jamin:

Right? Then you grew

Sheila Heti:

Out of it when I was in my twenties. And then you kind of figure that out for yourself in some way. Well, then you have your crises and whatever, and then you got to think about it and talk about it again. But no, I think these days what I talk about with my friends is just whatever the specific project is, whatever problems you're having with a specific thing, mostly complaining, the difficulty of not being able to pull it off or feeling like you are stuck or you're never going to be able to write it. I have these three other writers that I share my work with we're meeting tomorrow. So before I got on the call with you, I just sent something off to them, and tomorrow we're just going to have read each other's things and talk about how we feel about it. But for me, I'm just like, I think what I need at this point from them is reassurance, honestly.

Michael Jamin:

Reassurance,

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. Because you're so lost in the middle and you don't know what you're communicating and if you're communicating anything, and is it worth continuing? Should it just all be thrown out? There's so much doubt

Michael Jamin:

Because it's so very humble of you. You're a master writer, and yet you make it sound like you're still a student. You know what I'm saying?

Sheila Heti:

I mean, you think, I don't know if it's the same for you, but don't you think you're always kind of a student? Because

Michael Jamin:

Whenever you start, yeah, yeah. Look, yes. When every time you're looking at that blank page, I dunno how to do any of this.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, exactly. You always feel like you're back at square one somehow.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Sheila Heti:

Although now, not exactly square one. I've been starting this new book this week, and again, it may get to 60 pages and fall away from me, but now I have a different feeling that I had when I was in my early twenties. The feeling I have now is like, oh, I did that. Oh, I've had that thought before. Oh, I've written senses in that way before. What I'm trying to do now is none of the things that I've already done. They just, and so, yeah, where is this part of myself that I haven't written from yet? So that's kind where I'm now. So it's not really starting from square one, but it's still just as hard,

Michael Jamin:

Right? Because you feel like you've said everything you had to say or done everything you wanted. Is that what it is? Or,

Sheila Heti:

I know what my sentences sound like, so I feel like, oh, I'm not surprised by that sentence. That sounds like a sentence that my, I feel like I'm, you get this rhythm that is very pleasurable to write if the sentences have a rhythm, but now I'm just like, I'm tired of that rhythm. That rhythm can only give me one kind of sentence or one kind of thought. So I'm trying to figure out what else is there inside.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I imagine that's hard for someone. Basically, you're a physician who's made a hit and another hit, and what if I don't do it again? How do I do it differently? Or how do I reinvent myself now?

Sheila Heti:

And even just what's the meaning in this for me now? With every book, there's a different phase of life you're at. And I'm 46 now, so I dunno how old you are.

Michael Jamin:

How dare you? I'm 53.

Sheila Heti:

1. Yeah, I figured you were just a few years older than me. So it's a very different age to write from because you are not hungry in the same way you were when you were 23 and you were both in houses. You have accomplished certain things. And so what's the deepest part of yourself that still needs to do this when you're 23? Every part of yourself needs to do it in this extreme way. You've got to make a life for yourself. You've got to prove to yourself, you can do it. You've got to make money, you've got to all this kind of stuff. So what's the place at 46 or 53 that you're writing from that is just as vital and urgent as that place at 23?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I think actually that's why I started changing mediums. I've kind of done this headcount thing. What else can I do?

Sheila Heti:

So the essay, the podcast? Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Well, most of the essays, the essay started the whole thing. It was like, it's funny, in your book or a couple of times, you mentioned, should I go to LA? And I'm thinking, why does she want to go to la? What was that about? What's

Sheila Heti:

That about? I've got family there. When I was a little kid, my parents used to put me on a plane. I was five years old and I'd be sent to LA and I had relatives and I would stay with them. And it was just, to me, it's such happy childhood memories and I just love Los Angeles. Whenever I go back, I think this is a place in the world besides Toronto that I'd most like to live.

Michael Jamin:

Really? So different.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I just love it. Yeah, so I love everything. I love it.

Michael Jamin:

Oh my God, I don't what, I've been to Toronto. I had, well, then I

Sheila Heti:

Remember that LA's in America, and then I like, no, maybe not.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, good point. Good point. So there's something else. I remember what I wanted, what I want to say. You had in one book, it was like, you're lamenting. I hope I never have to teach. And now you're teaching, right?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, just for this one year.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. What was that about that decision?

Sheila Heti:

Well, I love teaching and I wanted the money because I didn't want to have to feel like I had to rush to start a new book. So I just wanted a year where I didn't have to have that anxiety of what's my next book going to be like, I've got to start. I've got to get a certain ways in and then sell it. And I like teaching a lot, and I just felt excited about the idea, but it was supposed to be a two year position, and now I've just changed it to a one year position. It becomes too much, even one day. And teaching a week is like, there's no point to write

Michael Jamin:

Because you have to read all the whatever they write on the side. You're saying, well,

Sheila Heti:

I've got to commute two hours to get there, and then two hours home, and then, I don't know. And then your brain just sort of stays in that university space with your students for three or four days, and then you have two days where you're not with them and then you go back to school.

Michael Jamin:

So what does your life really look like? Your writing life? What is it like to be an author on a dayday basis?

Sheila Heti:

What your life is all day long? You're either writing emails or you're writing writing. Probably spend more time writing emails and doing correspondence and businessy stuff than writing. Writing, and then all the life stuff, walking the dog, doing household chores. I don't have a very regimented existence, but I just sitting in bed and being on my computer, that's sort of my

Michael Jamin:

Favorite. That's where you write on laptop. Oh my God, my back would kill me. But something else you said, because I really was turning to you for answers as I was reading it. I'm like, she's got the answers. And you said, and you're like, I don't have the answers, but no, I'm like, no, she's got the answers. And you said, art must have at one point, art must have humor. I think you said that in How should a person be? And I was like, really? That's what you guys think. There has to be humor in art.

Sheila Heti:

Oh yeah. You got to know where the funny is. Yeah, I think,

Michael Jamin:

Sure. I don't

Sheila Heti:

Understand. It's the two. I read your essay. It was very funny.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But thank you. But I have an intention. I have an intention when I write, but I don't understand why you think there has to be humor. Alright. Why do you think there has to be humor it in art?

Sheila Heti:

Humor's such a part of life. I mean, if you don't have humor in life or art, you're missing a huge part of the picture. I mean, it's all, it's just the absurdity of being a human. It's,

Michael Jamin:

Well, see the thing as a sitcom writer, look, I'm grateful to have made a living as a sitcom writer. It's what I wanted to do, but it's not like anyone looks at what we do. It's like, oh, that's high art. They go, it's kind of mostly, people think it's kind of base. And I think, and when you think about even at the Oscars, when they're fitting the best picture, it's never a comedy. It's that the comedies are not important enough. And so that's why I had this feeling like, well, can humor be an art? Can it be, I

Sheila Heti:

Mean, I think great art always has humor in it, but it's the same thing in literature. The funny writers are not as respected as the serious ones, but I think that they're wrong. I mean, Kurt Vonnegut, I love Kurt Vonnegut. He's extremely funny, but he's never had the same status as somebody like, I dunno, Don DeLillo or whatever, because he's not serious enough. But I think it's a very, who are the people that are making that judgment? That the solemn writers that have no humor are the best writers. They're just idiots. I mean, it's not the case.

Michael Jamin:

I gave my manuscript to one publisher. I was rejected from him, and he wrote, he was very kind. He goes, oh, this book really works. I like it, but it's not high literature. And we do high literature here. And I was like, how dare you? I was like, well, I totally agree. It's not high literature. Not that I could write high literature, but I didn't set out to do. But there was still that sting of what you're doing is not important because it's funny.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. That's a stupid editor.

Michael Jamin:

Well, he got the last laugh. Wait a minute, wait a minute. But yeah, I don't know. Okay. But is humor in painting and humor in all art? I mean,

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, levity. Well, just that scent, that aspect of life. That is the laugh that is that bubbling up laughing. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's joy. Joy and humor are very closely connected. And a work of art without humor is a work of art without joy

Michael Jamin:

And

Sheila Heti:

Wants to take that in.

Michael Jamin:

Then what is art? I'm honest here. You learned this when you're 20 and I haven't learned it yet. So what is art to you and what's the difference between good art and bad art?

Sheila Heti:

It's a reflection of the human experience. It's like an expression of what it feels like to be a human, that a human is making for another human.

Michael Jamin:

Okay, so it's this interpretation of what you feel, what it means to be human, is that right?

Sheila Heti:

It's an expression of what you feel like it means to be human.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Okay. And then how do you

Sheila Heti:

That in an object?

Michael Jamin:

And then how do you know if it's good art or bad art?

Sheila Heti:

I mean, there's no consensus, right? You liked pure color, but a lot of people don't. There's just no consensus because it touched you, but somebody else thinks it's the worst book they've ever read, and that's okay. I mean, I think that that's right. We can't all speak to each other. We're not all here for all of each other.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, just because you mentioned that it was so touching this one moment, it really hit me where you explain how you felt the father, how his love for his daughter was so much that it put pressure on her not to have her life because her life was so important to him. And I thought, oh crap, I hope I'm not doing that because my feeling is no, it's just pure love. It's an expression of pure love. But from the other side, I can see that.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's what I was thinking about in that book. That's the sort of tragedy of

Michael Jamin:

Yes,

Sheila Heti:

Families and friendships and so on, that we want to love each other, but we can't in the way that we want to.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?

Michael Jamin:

It was just so beautiful to express that as two souls stuck in a leaf, where is this coming from? It felt completely appropriate, but also almost out of the blue. And that's what was so amazing about that whole section. Thanks.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I don't even remember where that idea came to me. I don't know if you feel like this with your writing, but sometimes you remember exactly where an idea came from. You can even picture yourself being right there having it, and sometimes you almost have anesia around it,

Michael Jamin:

Really? And what about the part? There was so many lovely moments of this woman working in a lamp store, and she has to turn the lamps on every single lamp on, and it's almost like, I got to do this, but there's her counterpart who has to turn the lamps off at the end of the day, something equally horrible. It was really funny, and it was just, I don't know. Did you ever work in a lamp store?

Sheila Heti:

No. No. But there was this lamp store that I used to pass on the way to one of my first jobs, and I would look in the window, and I did eventually buy a lamp from that store with all the money I had in the world. But I never worked in a lamp store, but I was obsessed with this lamp. I really thought it was going to change my life.

Michael Jamin:

And do you still have it?

Sheila Heti:

No. It got broken in a

Michael Jamin:

Fit of

Sheila Heti:

Rage situation. Yeah, it got broken rage.

Michael Jamin:

I was stuck on a paragraph I wrote against this important list. It

Sheila Heti:

Was in the box on the floor, and somebody stepped on it. And anyway, it's sad, but whatever.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. But alright. So much of it felt like, yeah. Okay. So it was a version of you that wasn't exactly, but where was this coming from? You said you had a point you were making. I don't remember

Sheila Heti:

Where, because at some parts you remember where they came from and some parts you just

Michael Jamin:

Kind of pull out of, pull

Sheila Heti:

Out of. You don't remember how they came about?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't know. I always feel like when I'm writing, if there's an idea that has a strong emotional reaction, like, okay, maybe there's something there.

Sheila Heti:

A strong emotional reaction in you.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. In me. I have a terrible memory, but if I remember something, why do I remember it? There must be a reason.

Sheila Heti:

You have a terrible memory too,

Michael Jamin:

And you wouldn't know it, but I guess you document everything in your diary.

Sheila Heti:

I mean, the diary is usually not about things that happened. It's more about the feelings that I'm having in the moment that I'm writing it. I wish that my diary was more about things that happened

Michael Jamin:

Really Well, you get to decide what you put in your diary.

Sheila Heti:

I know usually when one writes a diary, it's because you're in a moment of high emotion that you need to get your feelings out.

Michael Jamin:

Do you write every day in your diary?

Sheila Heti:

No. No, no. Just when I need to. And I don't even really do it anymore now.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. Yeah, there is. There's something else you said about it. Yeah. There's so many moments that were so interesting. Like you said at one point that the men you date don't understand you. I'm like, well, don't they read your book? I mean, why don't you just give 'em your book and didn't understand you?

Sheila Heti:

No, I mean, I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

You don't know. We'll get back to, I don't

Sheila Heti:

Even think that it's really all Yeah, like you were saying earlier, it's not really you. It's just an expression of a corner of you.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't know. But do you really feel that? I mean, I'm going back and forth. You'll see I contradict myself, but what you write is so to me, it feels so personal. I don't know how it cannot be you.

Sheila Heti:

I mean, I don't know. When I'm working on it, it doesn't feel like me. It just feels like writing on a page. It feels very plastic. I don't feel like it's me.

Michael Jamin:

So there's no, wow, because there's no inhibition there because it's very intimate. There's no inhibition. You don't feel to be judged. This is just a character named Sheila, by the way.

Sheila Heti:

I mean, I just don't think about it. Just I have this, that part of my brain is not awake when I'm editing or writing that people that are going to think it's me

Michael Jamin:

Or whatever. Well, that's bold. That really is bold because the notion that you're not worried about being judged, you're not worrying about expressing

Sheila Heti:

Yourself. I worry about being judged for an email that I send. That's a stupid email much more than I ever worry about a book.

Michael Jamin:

Really? Really? Yeah. Your book is permanent and it's your art.

Sheila Heti:

But I have so much control over it. I have so much. I take so much time with it. It's not spontaneous. It's really thought through. So I'm not, and it's art. It's not me. An email is me. A book is not, it's its own thing.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. How should a person be? I mean, this to me felt like this is your struggle. It was really interesting when it was a narrative struggle about a woman trying to find herself in a brief period of time. And I felt like, no, this is you. Right?

Sheila Heti:

I mean, it doesn't really feel like that. No.

Michael Jamin:

Alright. This interview's over. That's why I think when I said, you're brave, I think that's what makes you brave, is that this fearlessness of I can put it out there and I'm not really worried about it.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I just don't care. I care about being judged as a human in the world, as a person, but not through my books, not through your I care about it and Oh, she's wearing a really stupid outfit. I care about it in all those ways that everybody does, but not via the books. Not as the books as a portal to judgment about me.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Wow. I I don't know if you know how profound that is. To me. It really is. Yeah, because it gives you so much freedom to write then.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I mean, but fiction is different from essays. I think with essays you do feel like it's you, but with novels you don't. Or I don't,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But I guess, and I didn't really know this term, it's auto nonfiction, which I guess is this term. I was not familiar with

Sheila Heti:

Auto fiction. They call it

Michael Jamin:

Auto fiction. That's what I meant. Auto fiction. Yeah. And so

Sheila Heti:

I like auto nonfiction though. I think that's how it should start to be called.

Michael Jamin:

Really? Yeah. Just by my dumbest. Yeah. But when you call it auto itself, so I don't know.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, I didn't give it that term. The critics give it that term, auto fiction, but all writing is auto fiction. All writing comes from yourself. It's a really silly term, but I mean, they guess they use it for people that write characters that have their name. Which again, that's only, and how should a person be? Does the character have my name? None of the other books.

Michael Jamin:

Well, okay, but Well, the

Sheila Heti:

Diaries, obviously

Michael Jamin:

The diaries, but also I also know that pure color was taken from your life. I mean, we know that in

Sheila Heti:

A lot of

Michael Jamin:

Ways. So I also want to know about this, and I know I'm concentrating on how should person, well, on both of 'em I guess. But this play that you were commissioned to write, how does that work that you were tortured by throughout the whole book? You felt like you couldn't come up with anything good. How does that come about? So a local theater said, will you write us a play?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And it was their idea.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. Yeah. They commissioned a play for me,

Michael Jamin:

But they said, I mean, this is what we want it to be about. Or they said right about

Sheila Heti:

It was a feminist theater company, and they said it could be about anything as long as it was about women in it. And I really had the hardest time. I mean, I wrote a play, I'm sure you experienced this in Hollywood, and then there was a lot of notes. And in theater we call it dramaturgy. And I got so confused and I just couldn't make the play better from the notes. And it was just this torture, because when you're writing a book, or at least in my case, editors aren't like that. They're not giving you their notes to make the book something other than what you want it to be. But in theater, what's this character's motivation? Why does this happen here? There was just so much feedback and I just lost my sense of what I liked about it and what it was.

Michael Jamin:

And then how did you find it ultimately? You were happy with it, weren't you?

Sheila Heti:

Ultimately, I just, when it got put on a couple years after, how should a person be was published, it was just my original draft. So I never ended up editing it according to any of the notes in the end.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. So you won that battle?

Sheila Heti:

I guess so you did. It wasn't them who put it on. It was some other, some kid.

Michael Jamin:

Oh,

Sheila Heti:

I mean, he's not a kid anymore, but he seemed like a kid at the time.

Michael Jamin:

But you also do something called trampoline hall, which struck me as really fun. It seems like you're just part of this artwork. You make art. Well, I don't care what it is. Let's just do something weird and interesting until trampoline hall, which I love the premise of it's you say people deliver lectures on subjects they don't know anything about.

Sheila Heti:

Is that what it's, it's not their area of professional expertise. So they can do, oh,

Michael Jamin:

So they are experts.

Sheila Heti:

They can do research for their talk. It's just that it can't be their professional expertise.

Michael Jamin:

So they're not talking out of the rests. They're talking to about if they know No. Oh, okay.

Sheila Heti:

They do the research. Yeah. And then there's, so the talk lasts about 15 minutes, and then there's a q and a, and then So there's three of those and night, and yeah, it's been running once a month in Toronto since December, 2000 or 2001. Them. I haven't been involved in it. You them? Oh, no, no. I mean, I started it, and my friend Misha Goberman is and was the host, but after about three or four years, I left around 2005 or so. But he still keeps it going. So now I used to pick the three people every month, and I just used to, when I was in my twenties, I had crushes on people all the time. And it was fascinated by people in such a way that it was a way of having these friendships where I would go out with them and talk about what their talk was going to be about, and then I'd see them on stage.

And it was just a way of being with people. My life is not really like that anymore, where I'm coming into contact with so many people that I just have to have a show and put them on stage. I find 'em so fascinating. And the culture's changed because again, in the early two thousands, there weren't, the internet wasn't what it is. And I just felt like there's all these smart people with all these interesting things to say, and nobody's paying any attention to them. And here's a venue for them. You obviously don't need that, a barroom lecture series for people to have a voice in this culture anymore. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Right. That's right. Now you deal with students, young people. And so what's your take then, as an artist, as you deal with people of this younger generation? What do you see?

Sheila Heti:

I don't know. I mean, I only see them through a very narrow lens. You don't show your teacher that much of your life. I see them sitting in a classroom for two and a half hours once a week. I've only done it for seven weeks.

Michael Jamin:

But you read their work or you pretend to?

Sheila Heti:

I read it. There's not that much. I mean, I don't know. You can't really generalize about a generation. Every person's different.

Michael Jamin:

One of the stories in my book is about that. It was about me trying to, being in a creative writing class, trying to impress my teacher, and just having no idea how to write, just none. And feeling complete. You're smiling. You can relate or you see it.

Sheila Heti:

Well, because I'm smiling, because yeah, that's how people feel. And it's sort of a failure of the way that creative writing is taught that makes a person feel like they can't write

Michael Jamin:

Well. Okay. So what's the first thing you tell? What's the most important thing you tell your students then maybe?

Sheila Heti:

Well, I try to show them all these examples of, so-called bad writing and stuff that's intentionally boring and that's badly put together because I just think it's a better route. You're more likely to become a good writer if you are trying to do something bad than if you're trying to do something good. If you're reading the greatest writers and you're trying to emulate them, and you're all intimidated and blocked and nervous, and you're trying to write in a style that has nothing to do with yourself.

Michael Jamin:

So then how does showing them something bad help? Do you say, go ahead and write or write. What's the point of showing them something

Sheila Heti:

Bad? I don't want 'em to try to write. Well

Michael Jamin:

Write Well, you don't, but you don't want 'em to write schlocky or poorly written stuff either.

Sheila Heti:

I'd rather have them write basic. I don't know. I just think when you're trying to impress, when you're writing to try to impress somebody, it's just you're starting off on completely the wrong foot. I want them their writing. So for example, in this class, one of the first experiments we did was I told them to go into their messages, their text messages, threads, and to copy out every single text message that they'd sent and put that in a document and make it a long sort of monologue, because that is actually what they write. That is what they're writing. You got to start from what you're actually saying and what you're actually writing, not this imaginary idea of what writing is.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right, right. That's exactly right. So there's this thought of what writing should be and what writing, how get, I guess, how did you get over that, especially when you were writing your favorite authors were the greats. How did you find the confidence to have your own voice, I guess?

Sheila Heti:

Well, when I was young, when I was a teenager, I read all the Paris Review interviews, and I just got the sense like, oh, there's no way to do it no one way. Everyone has their own way. Faulkner has his way, and Dorothy Parker has her way, and John au has his way, and there's just no consensus. And so you just have to figure out your own way. That's what they all did. I just sort of saw that's what each one of them had done.

Michael Jamin:

See, that's where I struggled with, and you're getting my therapist now and my creative writing teacher when I was starting to write this book. Because as a TV writer, my job is not to have a voice. My job is to emulate the voice of the show or the characters. And I'm a copy. I'm a mimic. That's what I do. And that's what I've been doing for 27 years. And then to write, this was an experiment to me. What would it be like to write just whatever I want to write with no notes, no one telling me what to do. And it was very scary in the beginning. And it was very, I loved David Sari. How can I do him? And so I wrote a couple of pieces. I studied him, I read all, I've studied books over and over again. He was so entertaining. He writes so beautifully. And I read it over and over again, and I wrote my first pieces, almost like I was doing him. And I felt, oh, this is good. And then I let it sit for a couple of weeks, and then I read it with fresh eyes. And this is terrible. It sounds like someone pretending to be him is terrible.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, yeah. But that's a stage that you still probably learned a bunch by doing that, maybe about structure or about something.

Michael Jamin:

No, not that I learned that I felt like I was a pretender, but my thought was, well, he's doing it. He's successful. I write and now I perform my pieces as well, which is what, and I tore a little bit, and I thought, well, if it works for him, why reinvent the wheels? He's obviously got a market. And then I realized I had to come to the conclusion that it was almost heartbreaking. I can never write like him. I can't, no matter much. I want to, it'll never happen. And then I had to let go of that, and then had to come to the more, even a larger, heartbreaking realization was like, oh, I have to write me. And who the hell is that?

Sheila Heti:

And how did you find it?

Michael Jamin:

It was a lot of just drafts after draft. And then the problem, and this is something else, but I find some of the earlier pieces are very different from the later pieces. And I've tempted to go back and change the earlier ones. But like you're saying, I'm also tempted. I feel like I can't, can't, it's time to let 'em go.

Sheila Heti:

Right. That was that person.

Michael Jamin:

But it's all in the same book, and it felt like, well, should there be any kind of, is that okay? Is it okay to feel like each one's a little different from the other? I don't know.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, are the early ones still good, even if they're different?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I think they're good. I'm not sure if anyone else would notice except for me, but I noticed

Sheila Heti:

Maybe not. Yeah, probably. Yeah. And I think it's okay if they're a little different from each other.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't, well, we'll find out. But that was very difficult for me to figure out how to, and I turned a lot to, and I wonder if you do this, you kind of answered a little bit. I didn't want to turn to other writers. I turned to musicians to music. Do you do that as

Sheila Heti:

Well? Which musicians?

Michael Jamin:

It was turning to musicians to find out what is art? What am I supposed to be doing here? Yeah.

Sheila Heti:

I always look to painters for that.

Michael Jamin:

So painter, is it contemporary painters or

Sheila Heti:

Contemporary or not contemporary?

Michael Jamin:

And how do you pull, what are you looking for them? Yeah. When you look at a painting, how does that help you?

Sheila Heti:

Well, how does it help you to look at musicians?

Michael Jamin:

Well, there's two things with music, and I feel like music is too, they're telling us, they get to tell a story with lyrics and with music. So if you didn't hear the lyrics, maybe you'd still get the sentiment of it. And so I feel like they have two tools where we only have one because they can set a mood just for the tune. And so I looked to them for the intimacy in their bravery. You'd look, okay, Stevie Nicks, she's singing about herself. That's all she's doing. And okay, you can do that. It just felt so vulnerable to be doing this.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And that's why I'm shocked that you're so brave about it.

Sheila Heti:

I mean, it's the only job is to not care about yourself in relation to it, that the book matters. And you don't matter.

Michael Jamin:

Right. That's your job is to put the art first. Right.

Sheila Heti:

To not do things because worried about what people will think of you. That's the first. And I guess when I was younger, I was reading so many avant-garde writers that did that in such flamboyant ways. It just seemed to me the only Henry Miller, it just seemed to me maybe the first lesson, not even a conscious lesson, just like, oh, clearly he's not worried about what people are going to think of him or his reputation among decent people.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. And so you don't have that, obviously, you don't have that worry.

Sheila Heti:

No, but I don't know. A lot of decent people.

Michael Jamin:

Yes, you do. But yeah, I don't know. Again, it's what makes you, I don't know, such a fantastic writer. I mean, I want everyone to read your work because it's really fantastic. I have some questions here that I have to ask from. So my daughter, Lola, I tell her she's a way better writer than I was at her age. But the truth is, she may be a better writer than I'm now, but I don't tell her that part. But she has these questions. She put down some questions like, damn, you've got some good questions. So I can't take credit. I can't take credit for this question. Give

Sheila Heti:

Me Lowes questions.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. First of all, she says, what are your dreams for your writing, and how do you let them go while also keeping them alive? Oops. I dropped a rock.

Sheila Heti:

My dreams. You dropped a rock.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I dropped. I have magic crystals by my computer that are supposed to make my work better.

Sheila Heti:

Oh, what kind of rock is that?

Michael Jamin:

It came out of my head. You want some? Yeah. I don't know. They're magic, but they're on my computer. So what are your dreams for your writing, and how do you let them go while also keeping them alive? And I guess what she means is, I guess, ambitions at the age You were talking about that young age.

Sheila Heti:

Young. Yeah. How old is she? 20.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Sheila Heti:

When I was 20, my dream was to be the best living writer, just to be the best novelist, just to work harder than any other writer alive. That's what I was thinking. It

Michael Jamin:

Was work harder.

Sheila Heti:

I was like, I got to work harder than any other writer alive.

Michael Jamin:

That's what I was. And what did that work look like to you?

Sheila Heti:

Just always writing and always not being satisfied, and being a real critic of my work and trying to make it better, and trying to try to get it to sound more interesting and figure out what my sentences were, and letting myself be bad and repeat myself until I got better. And I don't think that I ever let that go. I am not sitting here today saying, I work harder than any other writer alive. But I do remember having that feeling when I was young. That's what I need to do. That's the only way it's going to work.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That importance. Yeah, because

Sheila Heti:

It's just so hard. It's just so hard to write. Well, to write anything good for people.

Michael Jamin:

I think you give the perfect answer on that. I'll give her another the

Sheila Heti:

Parental answer. In any case, work hard.

Michael Jamin:

Work hard. Well, but it was really,

Sheila Heti:

It's true. I think it's true that, and I remember being her age and interviewing this older Canadian writer, Barbara Gowdy, who I really loved, and she told me, and she's terrific. She told me, I was writing for the student newspaper, and she said, it's funny, I've got my students who have talent, clear talent, and then I've got these other students who don't seem to have so much talent, but the ones who don't so much talent work really hard, and they end up doing better than the ones that have talent. And I thought, oh, I never even would've known that. I would've thought that. I didn't know that hard work meant could mean more than talent. So hopefully you have talent, and then you can also make the choice to talent

Michael Jamin:

Work. And you learned this at a young age, you're saying this

Sheila Heti:

Part? I mean, my mother was also just very strict about working hard

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Sheila Heti:

Studies and stuff.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. Yeah. She's a delian mom. Hungarian.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Do you speak any Hungarian?

Sheila Heti:

No. Do you? No.

Michael Jamin:

No, I don't. But I do know there's a Hungarian expression that really helped me. I'll tell you what it is. So do you speak any other languages?

Sheila Heti:

No,

Michael Jamin:

No, no. That's your next task. I wrote about this in one of my stories as well. There's a Hungarian expression where it says, okay, so let me take it back. So I learned to speak Spanish as a teenager and then Italian as an adult. So each time when you learn a new language that you're not born into, there's that moment where it's like it's really hard to talk. It takes months and months, and then finally one day you open your mouth and the words just come out without thinking just like that magic. And it's turning on a light bulb. And I've had a hard time explaining to people what that feels like. But then I discovered a Hungarian expression, which said it perfectly. It says, when you learn a little language, you gain a new soul. And I thought, that's exactly what it feels like, because you're talking, you're like, who is this? I don't speak this language. Who am I? That's incredible. And you talk about soul so much in your work. I thought maybe that's something you had experienced.

Sheila Heti:

I never got that far. I mean, I studied French and I never got close to a new soul. I didn't have always translation.

Michael Jamin:

You're always translating in your head,

Sheila Heti:

Right? Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's just that moment, like, I don't know who I am. And then you find yourself reacting differently. And also using, if I find myself, I can't say, I don't know how to say this, so I'll say it this way, which is not how I would talk, because that's the only way I can express it. And then you're a different person. That's so neat. Yeah.

Sheila Heti:

Wonder people love learning languages.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it really is. Anyway, your mom must know she came up with it. Okay. So let me give her another question. Question. Okay. This is a good one. Okay. How do you tow the line between explaining what you mean by your writing? For example, the entire tree portion of pure color and just letting it be, even if that means being misinterpreted or confusing people. How do you tow the line between explaining?

Sheila Heti:

Don't really explain. I think I spend very little time explaining,

Michael Jamin:

But are you worried that it might be misinterpreted you people to understand your thoughts?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I think if the intention is there, if it's a clear intention when you're writing, then you're maybe not going to be misinterpreted as much as you think. And the intention is something that you can't really analyze. You can't take it apart, take a sentence apart and say where the intention was. But I do have that feeling that when writers are writing with a really strong intent, emotional or not emotional, just that it's coming from something very powerful inside, then it's less likely to be interpreted than one might fear. I don't think that I go in for much explaining.

Michael Jamin:

Well, when you share your work with a friend, do you say, Hey, do you get what I'm going for here?

Sheila Heti:

I mean, when you share your work, then people say what they're getting from it. And usually it's not that. Usually the problem I have is not that they're not getting what I don't usually feel like the problem with readers is misinterpretation. I think usually the problem is that it's not interesting. It's not compelling. It's not, rather than it's they're getting something completely different from what you intended.

Michael Jamin:

Because see, in TV writing, I often think the difference between smart writing and maybe not smart writing is not that much. It's just whether you're explaining it or not. If you don't explain it, you're making the audience work. And then they think, oh, this must be smart. I figured it out.

Sheila Heti:

Right.

Michael Jamin:

And dumb writing, you just, Hey, spell it out. But that's not something that's your concern, I guess.

Sheila Heti:

I mean, I just don't want to ever, I think I've always, always been, ever written the connective tissue that other writers put in. I have this feeling if I am not interested in writing it, it probably doesn't need to be written. And maybe that's not true, but I always don't want to feel obliged to write something just for the reader. If I don't have a need to write it myself, then I don't think it should be on the page. That's why I think I'm not so good at writing nonfiction, because nonfiction is very much about serving the reader with explanation.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Well, but there's some moments where I tend to race through moments which I shouldn't race through. So I am conscious of that's like go back and write it and make sure it lands and take, this is not a sentence. You better step it out with a paragraph or something. But that's not something that even, that's why I think you're more artful when you're writing.

Sheila Heti:

I don't know. I try to skip it. I just don't want to put something down on the page if it doesn't also have some need from myself to be written. I just don't want to write something just for the reader to just for the reader, get two parts to, I had a friend, I remember we were much younger. He was like, how do you get people out of rooms? I was like, why do you need to get them out of the room? But he felt like he had to put every step in.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right. And you'll just take a jump.

Sheila Heti:

If you don't feel like writing them leaving the room, then just, yeah. I think, yeah, it was just such a different thing that I never thought the reader doesn't need to see them leave the room. It's sort of like that with lots of things.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I agree with you. It's hard to know. I think I agree with your friend, though. It's hard to know what to put in, what to put out, how much handhold, because I don't think I really feel like when reading you, I feel like you're pulling us through a trail. You're holding us by the hand, but you're walking ahead. And then sometimes you wait for us to catch up, and then you move ahead, and then we're catching up to you, but then you'll stop and you wait for us. So I felt taken care of as a reader. That's nice. Yeah. But it turns out you weren't trying to take care of me at all. You were just writing the way you write, right?

Sheila Heti:

No, I mean, I want it to make sense. I want it to make sense. Of course. It's just like how much sense does a person need? But I'm also think that, well, everyone's going to like my books. I started taking it as a given that probably half the people, and that's okay. I'd rather have a third of the people really, or quarter of the people, or 10th of the people really love it. And then the rest not really get it. So I don't think that, I'm trying to write the kind of books

Michael Jamin:

You did in one of your pieces. You did mention that you felt compelled to write something with a little more commercial appeal at one point

Sheila Heti:

In the diary. I said

Michael Jamin:

That, yeah. Maybe might've been the diary.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. I mean, always when you're young, you're always trying to figure out, how am I going to make money? But also, you can't even, that's hard. It's hard to write something with commercial appeal. It's not as easy as it sounds.

Michael Jamin:

Well, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I guess, I don't know. To me, writing something, people

Sheila Heti:

Think, oh, I'll just write some dumb popular book. But it's like those,

Michael Jamin:

It's

Sheila Heti:

Something that people really want.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's true. I agree with you there. But I also feel, whatever this is next level, like I said, I don't know where you begin to think that this is going to work. And it does. You know what I'm saying? It's not like, because it's so many things, but all the pieces fit together, especially at the end. It all makes sense. So it was just lovely. Oh yeah, it was lovely. Yeah. Made me want to throw the book across the room, because I can't do this damnit, but okay. I want to answer one more question, then I'll let you go back to your life. But not until I get my answers. Let's see, what was it? Okay, this is interesting. So she writes so beautifully, she says, okay, you've answered a question as daunting as how should a person be in a whole book? In many ways, in many different ways, and explorations and explanations, you've arrived at answers not explicitly or all at once, but sewn into the whole entire book. So she asked, what was your initial instinctual answer on how a person should be? When that question first popped into your head,

Sheila Heti:

Gosh. I mean, honestly, Lola, I don't even remember. It was so long ago. That was 20 years ago that I started writing that book. I don't think that I even was thinking about, oh, what's my answer? I just really liked the way that sentence sounded, and I came up with

Michael Jamin:

Message. But you were trying to find yourself at that point.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah, but that sentence also was such a weird sentence. I don't even remember. I remember feeling I had it on my wall. I wrote it down and I put it on my wall. I was thinking about it. Should this be the, I don't know. That's an important sentence for me. I didn't know it was going to be the title of the book or anything. And my friend Margo came in. I was at a writer's retreat, this place called Yado, and she came in and she's like, she visited me there. She's like, that should be the title of your book. But I remember I put it on the wall. To me, it was such a weird sentence, it just got in my head like a earworm, just like a bug.

Is this sentence even asking a question? Is this sentence even saying something I liked? And I remember I put, when I was at this writer's calling, I wasn't sure the title of the book should be, should It Be? How Should a Person Be? Should It Be The Ugly Painting Competition? I had one or two other ideas, and there was this table that writers could sort of put notes for each other on. And I put this note on sort of saying, make a tick mark with which title you think it should be. And most people chose the Ugly Painting competition. So there's this retrospective thing where, oh, that's a really good title, people say, but I think at the time, it just felt like a really weird sentence. And so I didn't really have an instinctive answer. I more just had a magnetic attraction to that sentence.

Michael Jamin:

So you weren't struggling with the notion at the time of how you should be. I felt like you were when I was reading it.

Sheila Heti:

I mean, you have to narrow things down to put them in a book. I mean, I was just lost and confused and didn't know how to be a good person, and I didn't know what choices I should be making or how anybody made choices or, yeah, it all comes together in that sentence, I guess. But I wasn't walking around as a human thinking, how should a person be for myself? I was making really, I was just feeling very discouraged and very excited. Alternately,

Michael Jamin:

Right. Oh, okay. Okay. Alright. Hard part being asked a question from a book that was so long ago, but I would tell every, no,

Sheila Heti:

But I think that's the right answer. I think that you're not really magnetized exactly by the questions that are your life questions. You're magnetized by the questions that can be translated into book questions.

Michael Jamin:

Go on. I'm almost there. I'm almost with you. I'm still struggling. But

Sheila Heti:

You're drawn to the, you have to narrow things down to put them in a book. You can't put your whole life into a book. You have to narrow it down. And so you become attracted to those symbols, like the sentence, how should a person be as a symbol? You become attracted to these symbols that can be objects in a book, but in your life, you're not living symbolically where you're just lost and you just don't know how to be. So it doesn't crystallize in life. It's just this miasma of confusion and doubt and whatever. That's what life is.

Michael Jamin:

So do you think your writing helps you make sense of your life? Or are you making sense of it first and then writing.

Sheila Heti:

Writing? Am I making sense of it first and then writing? No. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Do you understand what I'm saying or no?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. No, I don't think so. I think you're writing to try to give structure to it, to try to give narrative, to try to give color to it or shade and, yeah, no, I don't think you don't make sense of it first and then write it out.

Michael Jamin:

And so in that way, I agree with you. And in that way, you almost invent yourself. You go, okay, this is a narrative. And now I guess it's true now.

Sheila Heti:

Well, no, no, it's not that. It's true now because you know that you invented it. So it serves a purpose for a short period of time.

Michael Jamin:

It serves a purpose, but

Sheila Heti:

You know, invented it. So it doesn't really permanently serve a purpose,

Michael Jamin:

But it does help you understand. It does help you, like I said, make a narrative of your life and that helps you understand, oh, I guess this is who I am now. This is who I am

Sheila Heti:

For those three years that you're writing three years, and then the book ends, and then you're lost again. And then you're like, now who am I going to be? What am I going to be? What is my outline?

Michael Jamin:

And then how do you come, okay, so how do you decide what your next work is going to be?

Sheila Heti:

I mean, you can make all sorts of decisions. And then we started off the conversation, then three weeks later, it was, you realized you were wrong. So it's more just like what sticks around. Again? I see you're wearing your wedding ring. You're married that it's like your partner. You probably had other people you thought you might marry or whatever, but it's just like, who ended up being your wife? You can ask that question retrospectively, but at the time you hope she's going to be your wife. Maybe you hope this other person was going to be your wife. You don't really know what it's going to be. So I guess it's the same with a book project. Retrospectively, you're like, oh, well, geez, I'm still working on that. It's been four years.

Michael Jamin:

Isn't that interesting though? Even when you talk about that, that you're, it's like how when you're talking about marrying someone, it's not even so much the person. It's the time. It's the time when it's almost like timing.

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. That's probably part of it too. I always want to start a book, and then when I actually do start one, I'm like, oh, well, you just weren't ready yet. You were still attached to the last book,

Michael Jamin:

But do you feel, okay, I get this idea of what sticks is what you'll work on and has legs, but do you feel any kind of pressure? I don't know, to continue reinventing this is what you're doing. That's the pattern. I see. Oh, I'm reinventing what my writing will be.

Sheila Heti:

I don't feel pressure. I feel like excited for the curiosity. I'm curious, or I would just want, well, what's the next thing? No, it's not pressure. It's more just looking forward to something new to play with.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I get that. I understand that. To me, I would be thinking, well, if it ain't broke, I'm trying to fix it. This is, I don't know. But no, I get

Sheila Heti:

It. But that's not true because you did leave screenwriting.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I'm still kind of, who knows? When you

Sheila Heti:

Started something new Yeah. And it wasn't broke. It was just that you wanted to try something.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It really was, what can I do without someone telling me what to do? Yeah. But did you ever have any interest in writing for screen?

Sheila Heti:

I've tried, and I just don't have, I would have to put in a lot more time than I probably have, but the couple of times I've tried to write for the screen, I just felt like it didn't, yeah. It's just not my medium. It's a very different, it's a much more mathematical, dramatic, logical kind of, I don't know. It's only halfway there because then the actors have to come. I like the fact with the book that it's the whole thing.

Michael Jamin:

It's all yours. Right. Do you watch a lot of TV or film?

Sheila Heti:

Yeah. My boyfriend and I watch something more or less every night. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

Really? What do you went to? Yeah,

Sheila Heti:

He loves movies. Right now we're watching the Boys.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, the Boys, okay. Right.

Sheila Heti:

But I think my favorite was The Leftovers,

Michael Jamin:

The Wait, I didn't see that. That Leftovers

Sheila Heti:

TV show that ran for three seasons. I thought that was an incredible work of art.

Michael Jamin:

Really? Oh, that's work for that.

Sheila Heti:

Interesting. The film was just great. But yeah, and I love Curb and Seinfeld. I mean, just this good old tv,

Michael Jamin:

Good old. Great. Wow. Sheila. Sheila Hetty, thank you so much. I don't know. This is one of the benefits of getting to do what I'm doing now, is I get to meet people like you and just learn and soak it up, because I just feel you is such an incredible talent. And so I urge everybody just to, I don't know, your newest book will be Alphabetical Diaries. That's February drop in February. But I guess for me, I'll probably read motherhood next. Is that what I should read next? Okay. She shaking Head. Okay. That's what I will. And so I urge everyone, Sheila, thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining

Michael Jamin:

Me so much for this

Michael Jamin:

Interview. Thanks for asking me. I really appreciate it. Oh, this was such a pleasure. Oh, please, everyone in my family, I was telling em, looks like the interview Sheila Hadie. And it was like a big deal. I got my questions, my daughter send me questions. Don't ruin it. Don't ruin the opportunity. Thank you again so much. Alright, everyone. More great stuff next week. Thank you so much for listening and keep writing.

Michael Jamin:

So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin's talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

Show Notes

Mary Lynn Rajskub on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marylynnrajskub/

Mary Lynn Rajskub IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0707476/

Mary Lynn Rajskub on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Lynn_Rajskub

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I don't know what else to do because I am an artist. So it's always been tied to my personal life and my personal expression, and there's a therapeutic aspect to it. And I don't really, I feel like if I could have taken the route of, I don't know. I never had the ability to be like, I'm going to write scripts, so I just kind of amped up the thing that I am good at.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.

Hey everyone. Welcome back for another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'm going to tell you what I'm talking about today. I'm talking with a wonderful actress named Mary Lynn Reup, who I worked with many years ago. I was introduced to her. She's doing her hair right now. How's

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Your side part going? Okay, go on.

Michael Jamin:

Many years we were teamed up to take a pilot out based on her life and many pilots that didn't go anywhere. But Mary Lynn is, you are one of my favorite Hollywood stories, and I'm going to tell it to you and I hope it embarrasses you because it was so funny. So we were working together on telling this pilot, and then it was a few years later, we were doing Marin, mark Marin, his show. We were running his show, and then we needed someone at the last minute to play themselves in an interview. So I text Mary Lynn, I got her number on my cell phone. I text her and I

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Say, oh, what did I do?

Michael Jamin:

I say, I say, Hey, Mary Lynn, I know this is last minute, but do you want to be in our TV show? And then you wrote back, yes, who is this?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Nope,

Michael Jamin:

Don't need to read a part. And we script's are

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Important.

Michael Jamin:

I'll be there tomorrow. I just assumed I was in your phone. So I was like, whatever. And then we later had you on LX Buddy system, but for the people who are not entirely sure who you are, I mean, you've done a ton of stuff. Most, I guess your biggest role was Chloe on 24, which was a giant hit. So you're Chloe, but then I was also looking through your credits and you also played Chloe on Veronica's closet. And I wonder if that was just a trial run for the name

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Trial. Yeah, it's in the ether that the quirky awkward girl, oh, let's call her Chloe in Veronica's closet. She was androgynous and it was Wally Langham who played her assistant on that show, if I'm remembering correctly. Both of us. His character turned out to be gay. It was actually kind of a sweet story. And so we both were ambiguous sexually, and we both had crushes on Scott Bayo, which is not adorable, but

Michael Jamin:

Not anymore. Do you remember all the parts you've done like this? Do you have a good memory for everything you've done?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

You've done

Michael Jamin:

A lot of parts.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

What's funny is you're pulling the switcheroo on me because normally people will say stuff to me and I'm like, I don't remember that at all. But things like this, if you ask me what the part is and what the story is, I most likely will remember that stuff.

Michael Jamin:

But when you Go ahead,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah, but there are some things where either, I don't know, it depends. Sometimes I'm in stuff, I'm like, I don't remember being there. I don't remember you

Michael Jamin:

Really. You sometimes turn on the TV and see an episode of something you've done done a ton. And they go, oh, look at there. There I am. Do you not remember?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah. And it's funny, the way that you're saying it through the prism of the actual part, I'll remember that. But there's a certain, I don't know, there's certain events or one-off things or sometimes there's stuff on 24. There's a ton ton of guest stars because there's so much plot on that show, and there's so many people that get killed per episode, most likely. In that case, it's a person that I just wasn't on set with, and so I didn't have memorized the episodes of who all the characters are type of thing.

Michael Jamin:

Now you do a lot of, I see you posting, you're always on the road, you're always doing standup, but did you start as a standup?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I started in standup ish, yes. I was going to school for painting, and then it turned to performance art, and then I started making fun of performance art.

And then I was in San Francisco and I was going to bars and doing open mic shows. I was really attracted to solo performers, but at the time it was more performance arty. And then once I started just organically making fun of it, I started to encounter comedians who would come to these. There was a crossover between artists and comedians who would go to the same open mics. And I remember seeing the comedians and going, oh, that's, oh, that's somebody that knows their voice, their natural at storytelling, because I was seeing a lot of just poetry from their journal and stuff like that. And it wasn't until I started meeting comedians that I was like, oh, those are my people. But I still didn't understand necessarily how I was being funny.

Michael Jamin:

And then how did you find your voice then? That takes a long time.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Oh, I think I just found it last week.

Michael Jamin:

Well, tell me why, how you found it. What does that mean for you to find your, I know what it means for a writer. What does it mean for you?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

What I'm realizing, honestly, lately within the past few years, especially within the past decade that I've gone on the road doing comedy in earnest, is that I do have a story to tell. It's just taken me a long time to hone in on what that is. And a lot of it is just come from my life experience and putting together, oh, that's what I thought about that, reflecting on stuff, because I think when I first started, I grew up sort of in a bubble and pretty naive, and so I just was putting a vulnerability out there, but I didn't know what I was saying or what I was doing. I got a lot of acting because of that

Michael Jamin:

Really. So you were vulnerable back when you were starting off?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

A lot of times, and that's pretty much what I did on stages. I would improvise and I wouldn't know what I was going to say. And I can remember looking back, other people would be like, did you write a sketch packet for that? Again, there was a crossover between actors and comedy writers, and I used to just really beat myself up, and it's because I was so bogged down by whatever social anxiety and whatever my brain, the mechanism was geared towards performing, and I still can't quite articulate it, but I just know that I didn't have the presence of mind or the ability to, my brain just didn't work that way. I wasn't about to sit down and write a sketch packet. I had to go through it experientially year after year to be like, oh, I'm this type of person. That's why sometimes people will be like, they'll ask the generic question of who are your comedic influences? It's like, I never related to a guy on a stage in a suit with a tie going, here's what I think about this. It's only lately that I'm going, oh, I have an opinion on that, and it's a strong opinion, but it took me a long time to not be really reactive and really passive.

Michael Jamin:

But you still write out your material before as if any other comedian would, right? Or

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No? I do. I do. And now that I've been doing it so long, things will come to me and it's always a joy. You, and I'm sure when you're writing, sometimes you'll get those one-liners really quick that you're like, oh, that's fully formed. I'd have one line that's been in my act forever, but I just love it. It's like, did you know you could do a bunch of yoga and still be an asshole? And that's just a real quickie. I didn't sit down trying to write that. And then I have a whole another scenario that follows that, where it's like the kernel of it is truths, but the way it comes out is pretty fabricated.

Michael Jamin:

Do you have a preference as to, do you prefer acting or standup, or does it not make a difference to you?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I mean, at this point, I prefer standup just because there's, well, there's meat on the bone for that in terms of I get to be in control and I get to be on stage for an hour, and it's hard and it's challenging, it's exhilarating. I love acting. It's just lately it's been a bit of diminishing returns in terms of parts that I can actually be challenged by. I would absolutely love to have something that I can dig into and that would have a lot of layers to it, something that I could come back and continue to be that character. But I'm going on 10 to 15 years of the life of a lot of guest stars, which is great. I'm very thankful, and I will do that again. But that's got its own. You're coming onto a set where everybody knows each other and you're just like, I got to now in two days, fit into the tone of the show, and then I do my one thing and then I leave.

Michael Jamin:

And you prefer, because you do a lot of comedy, I mean, do you prefer drama then to do, is that more satisfying to you?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I mean, 24 was pretty satisfying just because it was such a big show and it was so different for me.

Michael Jamin:

But also, you were kind of the relief character. You were the awkward weirdo, right? Totally. Yeah.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

But is there a plan then with your, I mean, I don't know why I'm asking this. Is there more to it? Is there a bigger plan for you doing all this standard? No,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I need your help because my help

Michael Jamin:

Want your help

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Would, my dream would be to be able to get another acting role that I could be a regular character on something. It's a big dream. My other dream would be to sell out the tickets in the small clubs that I do, so that I could sustain what I'm already doing. And so when you say, is there a plan, that would be the plan. I don't necessarily know if I get to do that or not. I've got a few more pushes in me, and if one of those things doesn't start to pay off, I will be trying to pay for my lavish lifestyle in some other way. Maybe OnlyFans, maybe some feet videos. I heard on OnlyFans, there's big breasted women making smoothies. I could do the small breasted women making smoothies on OnlyFans.

Michael Jamin:

Wait, so they're not naked, but they're just making smoothies. They're naked. Oh,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Let me talk to you about something. I've spent zero time on there, but I was podcast. I have a new podcast called that. Woo. You do. Please promote it because I that

Michael Jamin:

Woo. You do for sure

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

At that. Woo. You do. I have a partner. We talk about what's a woo that you do that, A magical thinking thing that you do in your life that you think, anyway, we were digressing and our producer went on to OnlyFans. The thing about it is there's whole universe of stuff. I think it started out as soft core porn, and now it's like everything. And I can't say much more. I only spent about 40 seconds on there. But you go on there, you get an onslaught of all different kinds of things that, I mean, people are doing comedy on there. People are doing,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really? On there? Yeah. So you're saying not just porn, it's just

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It's not just porn anymore. Whitney Cummings is doing, she did the Burt Er roast on OnlyFans. Anyway, I'm here to promote my podcast at that. Woo. You do. They don't need,

Michael Jamin:

But let's talk about your, okay, so what's the premise of your show, your podcast?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

So my friend Jeffrey and I, he comes on the road with me. He's a very funny comedian. He features for me, and we enjoy each other's company. And he may or may not, I may, he maybe carries crystals in his pockets sometimes.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I have some crystals right here. I keep 'em on my computer in case That's what I'm talking about for creativity. It's California.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah. Fuels. So the podcast is what is the woo that maybe you're embarrassed about that you do that you think, have you written yourself a check for a million dollars? Do you keep crystals on your desk to harness the energy from the universe? We had a guy talk that he started praying. I had a story about going to visit a crystal skull. One lady talked, of course psychics came up. But there's all different types of little things that you think is going to give you or things that make you happy. And they're sort of like a magical thinking.

Michael Jamin:

But that's a great idea actually, because it's very small, but it's very optimistic and helpful

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

For a podcast. And I had one woman who was like, she wasn't on the pod, but she's like, I don't have a woo. I don't have a woo. And the more we talked, she said, I'm very organized though. And I said, well, what does that bring you? And then I love organizing as a woo, because that gives her a sense of peace and calmness. And it's like, what's that thing you do that makes you feel good?

Michael Jamin:

When I was struggling a few years back, I was all depressed about something. And then I read this book and it was very new agey. There's a lot of the book that was, I thought this is very helpful, but this is really helpful. But then it went a little too far, and I was like, ah, you're fucking ruined it. I was on board. And then you just took it one step so far. But one of the things that he said that I thought was so helpful, it was about kind of visualizing your life or whatever. And one of the things that was so helpful, he said, it's already happened. It just hasn't happened yet. Whatever you want. It's already happened. It just hasn't happened yet. And so I was like, that was so profound to me. It was like, oh. So now I just have to figure out how to make it happen. Already done. I don't know why. I find that really helpful. Maybe it doesn't help you at all.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I love that. Well, it sort of eases the pain of, I think the idea is like we're supposed to go through these challenges and take little steps, but it's like watering a plant. You're not just like, why aren't you grown? Why aren't you a tree yet? But you're like, oh, you will be a tree. And I just know you're growing and it doesn't help to go like, why aren't you this yet?

Michael Jamin:

And that's what you're doing now, because you're just putting this energy out there. You're putting it with going on the road, which is not easy. And you're putting the energy out there hoping that something will come from it and something will, you just don't know what it will be.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Right. And I'm really hoping to, looking back on my life, that was a long time ago that we pitched that. I had a very good run of good fortune with having the parts shine on me for a little while there. And then of course, with the massive show of 24, and people know me from always Sunny in Philadelphia now, even though that's only a couple episodes. But I've been very lucky, but I still want to do it. So we'll see.

Michael Jamin:

When you're on the road, because you are on the road a lot, how many days were you on the road?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It's just a

Michael Jamin:

Lot. Okay. So when you're on the road, will you go from one city to the next, or do you always come back to la?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I try to come back, and the best case scenario for me would be to do two weekends a month. But it doesn't work out like that. Now, this month of November, I'm going to be out for almost the entire month because I have a lot of one nighters. Some won't give you a weekend booking some clubs. So it's just one nighters that I can get booked, and then I'm going.

Michael Jamin:

And then do you drive from city to city then, or what? Or you fly?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, at the time, I'm just doing a lot of one-way flights,

Michael Jamin:

One-way, flights back and forth.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

It's exhausting. It

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Is exhausting.

Michael Jamin:

It's

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Very bizarre.

Michael Jamin:

Tell me what it is. Okay, so you go to some city. Let's say you're going to Boston, right? You're flying the night before. What is it really like?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah, you're asking me at a weird time because I just booked a bunch of flights. And some of 'em, if I have a one night or somewhere, I'm not getting paid for four or five shows. What's nice, what's the best is if you can fly in the night before you wake up, you chill out, and you do a whole weekend of shows.

Michael Jamin:

And then after the last show, you fly back, or do you wait another day?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, after the last show, you fly back. Well, you have to spend the night, but usually it's like 6:00 AM I'm out the next morning I be home and take the kid to school and pick up the kid from school.

Michael Jamin:

And what would happen if your flight got caught somewhere or a connecting flight? What would happen if you missed your connecting flight to this show? What happens?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Hey, it's just another day that he stays with his dad and they got to take a couple

Michael Jamin:

Of men for you. But you missed the show. I'm saying.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Oh, you're saying if I don't make it to the show?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Well, that hasn't happened yet.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

But yeah. And this time in November, I've got a lot of, there's Portland, there's Alameda, California, there's Sacramento, there's Utah, and they're all within a few days. So I'm doing these little flights, and some of them are the same day of the show. There's one where I get in at 4:00 PM and the show's at seven or eight. And that's just the way it's going to

Michael Jamin:

Be way it is. But I also think, alright, so exhausting from the travel. I dunno why I'm so stuck on the practicality of this whole thing. But then you have to psych yourself up to go up on stage at whatever, nine o'clock or whatever. Isn't your energy sap by that time? Yeah. What do you do?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I napped before and then I make sure that I have enough time to wake myself up from the nap. And then also, if I'm feeling really dark and low energy, I just let myself go there. If you try to push it away, it just makes it worse.

Michael Jamin:

So you're about to go on stage and you're fucking exhausted. And then when you go there,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

What happens is I've experimented with different versions. I was saying I was real reactive in the past. Sometimes I would get really in my head and I get really quiet, and I've learned techniques. If I'm feeling low, feeling exhausted, I carry that with me on the stage. I'm honest with it. Then I use it. And then it's like little stepladders, you get out of it because you're standing on stage in front of an audience, but it's using the honesty of where you're at. And then that exhaustion oftentimes will turn into annoyance, will turn into anger, will turn into humor. I mean, there's one example where I got booked at, I thought was a club. It was a bar show. It was in a weird part of town. It was honestly very white trashy, for lack of a better word. And I was like, I never drink before shows. And I started drinking. And then by the time I got on stage, I was like, I don't know why I got booked here. I don't know what this is.

Michael Jamin:

Did you say that as part of your act? Yes, you did.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

And they loved it because I was being honest and I took my reality. I was like, what is this? I walked around the building, it's like a dirt parking lot. I don't even know what's happening. Why are you guys here? Why? And

Michael Jamin:

That must've depressed when you showed up. You don't deserve me. That's hilarious.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

One of the funnest shows ever. And I started categorizing the audience, you guys are, what? Is this over? Okay, you guys are, this is what you're going to do. And I started naming them and oh my

Michael Jamin:

God,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

The guy who went on before me. But again, this is also after many, many shows under my belt. I wouldn't recommend just doing that. But we're talking about addressing this darkness in my soul because I already know a lot of things about myself. Honestly. I know the caliber that I can work at, and I know that I'm not necessarily a super joke Smith wordsmith. You know what I mean? I know my lane and I know my strengths and I know my experience, and I know that I am not just going on stage to be pissed off to shit on them. I know that I'm going to transform it into something. And I have enough experience to know that I can do that.

Michael Jamin:

That's so funny because you had this awful experience. The worst you show up, this is going to be terrible, and it turns out to be great because you acknowledge it. And were they there to see, I mean, it just seems like you're okay, I'm Chloe. How would I get out of this fucking mess?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Oh, I mean, you're really getting me going. I feel like I'm talking a lot because you're going right into the minutiae. That's very real. Things that become pump the show. When I first started going on the broad proper, 24 was actually still on the air. And I still had this, what was funny to me at least a decade ago was like, I'm uncomfortable. I don't like myself. I had this thought, very self-deprecating, which will never completely go away, but very self-deprecating point humor, which to me was hilarious to expose that. But when I took the stage and they were expecting to see Chloe, it was completely confusing to them going, you're a TV star, you're Chloe. What is this person, this weirdo,

Michael Jamin:

This

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Interior? I don't remember what the jokes were back then, but I developed, had to, it was like do or die. I had to survive. I had to sink or swim, and next thing you know, I've got a whole 15 minute chunk that's like, oh, you're my Jack Bauer. Oh, you. And I'm like, I'm not really good at computers guys. And I'm just playing because I can feel the energy and they need to be like that guy. He loves Jack Bauer. Oh, you're the Jack Bauer of the show. And I developed jokes within that and ER's not some of it dumb, but because they were so jacked up and only seeing that way that,

Michael Jamin:

But that's interesting. They have this expectation. It's natural. I guess they're coming to the show. Are they coming to see you now because of Chloe or because of your, what do you think? Why are they coming out? Do you think?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It's a mixture now, and it really is a true mixture. It's people that don't know why they're there that don't know me from anything. It's people that know me from Always Sunny. It's people that know me, Chloe, those two camps want to fight with each other. And it's people who are comedy fans. It's a real mixture.

Michael Jamin:

Do you feel, this is odd, because this is also, I guess this speaks also to your celebrity, but when you meet someone when they want to meet you, they want to shake your hand, they want to take a picture of you, is there a sense that you're like, did I give you what you wanted?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Oh, yeah.

Michael Jamin:

What is that like for you?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I just let them say their thing

Michael Jamin:

And then what? That's all they want. You just let them give 'em a chance to voice what they're, and that's it.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

You have to do. And I try to hear back to them their energy, and I try to listen and sort of validate their entry point. Because it depends. Some people are like, oh, my parents showed me 24. Some people are still in 24. There are certain people that watch it over and over again. And then there's other people that are like Gail, the snail,

Whatever thing they want to experience. I try to, sometimes people will reference other things and always Sunny, they'll go, oh, I can't even think of it. I don't watch the show. I love them. I think they are top notch. I love all those guys. I love Caitlyn. Known her for a long time. I don't watch, I watch some, but people that watch that show have it memorized and they watch it over and over again and they make references to other things. And then I can see them a little bit. They're a little disappointed where I'm like,

Michael Jamin:

Isn't that weird?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

That thing.

Michael Jamin:

I get that even from, because we were on King of the Hill for five seasons, and sometimes people fans know the show better than I do, and I worked on it on shows that I worked on. I don't remember them as well. And they do. And I always feel like, I don't know, it's awkward. It's awkward for me. I don't know how I'm supposed to be in speech.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

And it's a huge compliment because you know that energy, you're like, yes, that's such a great, the fact that they identify with it and they know it so well is a wonderful thing. But as the person who creates it, you go like, yeah, I did it and then I moved on.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I'm not living in it, but it's such a beautiful thing when people are fans of stuff. It's just, I can't be there. I got to get a job. You have

Michael Jamin:

To be in the president. Exactly. I think that you see this a lot. I mean, he hear about this a lot about stars, who I find, I talked about this a while ago. I saw an old clip of Eve Plum who played Marsha Brady, and she was the Jerry's, I don't know what show. She was on something, maybe Jerry Sprinkler, I don't know. This is whatever, 20 years ago. And then someone from the audience said, they raised their hand. Can you just do it? I

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Remember that. I think I've seen that clip.

Michael Jamin:

And she was like, no. She like, she knew what she wanted and she wasn't going to do it. And then she kind of, so the woman was, can you just say, and she wanted her to say, Marsha, Marsha Marcia. And she wouldn't do it. And I felt I didn't blame her at all. I mean, you could see why she didn't want to do it. I didn't blame

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Her. That's probably for her. She's like, that was,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I was 10. Yeah. I can't pretend like I'm still a 10-year-old. I live in the present, and I don't think people recognize that. And it was a little heartbreaking because she was disappointing them. But you couldn't blame her today. What do you expect?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It is heartbreaking. It goes from being an amazing thing to not cool after for a certain amount of time.

Michael Jamin:

Does it even for you the same way you mean?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, I mean, I really don't mind it. And I've learned, for the most part, most people are just really nice. So I'm very lucky. Most people are just like, they love it, and then they say that and then they move on. The only thing that's a little bit frustrating for me is running into a casting director who's thinks I'm still, I mean, this was a few years ago, but she's like, you're on a 24, right? I'm like, no, dude, that's been done for 13 years.

Michael Jamin:

No one's on 24.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, speaking of the strike. And I make no residuals. And I made a low amount of money. And people think, because such a high profile show that, oh, you're good, right? You're done. I need to change the image of myself. But whatever.

Michael Jamin:

You have to constantly, it doesn't end. I think people don't realize that, especially for actors, you have to constantly get work and nothing's a given. I am sure it's a little easier for you because people know that when they hire you, they're going to get a good performance. But it's not like you still got to audition. You still got to go out for stuff. So it's hard. Is it even hard? I mean, it must have much harder in the beginning, getting nos a lot as an actor hearing No. When you auditioned, getting rejected in the beginning, or was that not your case?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I mean, it's not, yeah, the nose is one thing, but I think it's what you were saying earlier, even though you were equating it to standup, for me, it's getting it up again. And some people are better at this, but it's making it a numbers game. But to put it out there per audition over and over again is harder than the nose. And I know the

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah. It's like, I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

Do you have that same thing with standup as well, or no?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Here in my control. And more frequently you do it, but it also is a beast because if you take a few days off, it's like, oh, I got to get back in.

Michael Jamin:

Why do you say that? It's because the business side

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

And the timing and the rhythm

Michael Jamin:

And

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Being present, it's just a constant. You've got to constantly work out that muscle.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And so you do crowd work as well then It sounds like you interact with them. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a preference?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No. I mean, I remember there was this one club where the guy, it was, what's that word? Not vanity, but he was retired, but was like, I'm going to start a comedy club, but didn't put all this money into the drywall and the design and the sound, but the audience didn't know why they were there. There was no sense of when you go into an older comedy club, like the Comedy Store or some of these places that have been there forever, the punchline in San Francisco, everyone knows why they're there. The seats are close together, they're facing the stage. They're very simple things, but it's hard to create that like, oh, we go here to see comedy. And that gets lost a lot lately. And there was a new club, and I remember it was like Whack-a-Mole where I'm teaching them how to focus. We're at a show and these women, they're drinking like they're at a bar and they're talking to each other. And I'm like, oh. And I got off the stage, walked into the audience and was like, oh yeah, you guys. And they're like, we're divorced too, and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, yeah, we're the same, but you know what I wouldn't do. Go to your show and then act like I was at a bar. And they were like, oh. And they shut up. But I

Michael Jamin:

Butt that. So strange. That's the problem with standup. It's different when you're doing standup in front of a whatever. You sell a theater and you sell a lot of tickets. And when you're in a club, people might be there just to socialize with their fucking friends. And so it's a whole different thing, man. It's a whole different level of, they could be hostile. I don't know. That kind of stuff worries me a little bit. And I didn't stand up when I was much younger, but I wasn't thinking it through enough.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

What happened? Tell me about it.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I don't know. I just did it. Maybe you've heard there's a club. I was from New York, so there's a couple of clubs nearby. I would do it on the weekends and stuff, and I didn't, colleges shows and stuff like that. But at some point I was like, you know what? I'd rather, what's the end goal? I have to be on the road. Or if I become a comedy writer, then I can just stay in one place and I can go to sleep at a decent hour. So that's what my thinking was, how to

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Be a comedy writer at the beginning. How did you learn how to edit down on the page?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's really hard because it's a different thing. I had took some classes and then I teamed up with Seabert, and then we started writing more scripts together. And then you have to learn story structure. That's the hardest thing there is. But even I remember driving out here from New York after I graduated thinking, okay, think of something funny. What the fuck? No, it doesn't work that way, man. I didn't have a voice. That's why I was talking. I didn't know.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

So how did you find your voice?

Michael Jamin:

The voice thing? Well, when you're writing on a TV show, you don't, you find the voice of you, the actor you're writing for, or you find the voice for the characters that are already there, not supposed to have your voice. You're supposed to have their voice. And so when I was writing my book, maybe you can see it. So I wrote this book and I've been performing on it. So this is why I'm so curious to talk to performers. And the whole process of finding my voice was really scary. In the beginning. It was like, well, what can I write on my own without an executive giving me notes without, and then finding your voice meant just being honest. And that was really hard.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It was like, it feels like the wrong answer. Just be honest. Boom.

Michael Jamin:

Well be honest with who you are. You have to speak the truth. You have to be vulnerable. But there are times, as I've been performing two theaters, so it's not standup because that's different. You're selling tickets and people are friendly. But there have been times before I go up every show, I kind of say to myself, why am I doing this again? I'm getting 'em nervous. Why am I doing this?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

You're back in it. You're performing.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. We'll just see where it takes me.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

And have you done a lot of, are you on the road?

Michael Jamin:

Well, I've done, we did, I don't know, maybe I think eight shows in LA in a couple in Boston, and then I'm waiting for the book to drop. Then I'll go back on the road again and we'll see where I can sell tickets. That's the hard We'll see. We'll see. People say they want to see me. Well, we'll see. Because you're literally selling one ticket at a time. You're like, you're talking about, Hey, come see me Boston. And you look at the ticket sales, oh, there's a sale. Then you do another post and then another ticket sale. So it's hard. Everything's hard now. Is that your experience at all? Is any of this your experience?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, my shit is just, I'm just really selling out everywhere.

Michael Jamin:

Do you promote a lot? Is that what the podcast is for? At

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Woo. You do on all platforms at that. Okay. Sorry, what'd you say?

Michael Jamin:

No. Is that what the podcast is for? To help let people know you're coming to their city or something?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah. And because Jeffrey does feature for me, I mean, that would be really, again, pretty dreamy. If it's kind of all is starts part of the same package that people could listen to it, hear us, come see us live.

Michael Jamin:

Right. You could even do your podcast live. Is that something you want to do?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah. I mean, no, at this point, it depends.

Michael Jamin:

How many episodes are you dropping? You do one a week or something. And do you shoot it? Where do you record it?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

We record it in Sun Valley.

Michael Jamin:

In Sun Valley?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Is that good or bad? What's wrong with that?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Our producers are there and they put

Michael Jamin:

It out. They have a studio. Yeah,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

They have a studio.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I know Sun Valley. Yeah.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Awesome.

Michael Jamin:

I like Sun Valley. They got that. Nice. There's a Latuna Canyon. It's my favorite road to tripod.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Oh

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I know the area Well.

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?

Is there other projects? I don't know what you want to work on other than I'm so curious. I really am curious to see where else this will take you, all this energy you're putting into.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I know, right?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I mean, other than I guess acting, I don't know anything else.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Well, the thing is, I don't know what else to do because I am an artist, so it's always been tied to my personal life and my personal expression, and there's a therapeutic aspect to it. And I don't really, I feel like if I could have taken the route of, I don't know. I never had the ability to be like, I'm going to write scripts, so I just amped up the thing that I am good at, and I'm hoping that it, I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

What about theater do you think about? Or is that just not,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

That's a money maker right there.

Michael Jamin:

Well, but you could say, is it less of a money maker than standup? Is that what it is?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I think so. I think it's less of a moneymaker and more of a commitment.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I saw a show yesterday at the Geffen. It was a small little show. The theater was probably 99 CSS or something. I don't know. It was a nice little show. Yeah, okay. But when you go on the road though, you're effectively saying, you're effectively saying, I can't audition. I can't be booked for anything. Well,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah, but if there's no shows that are booking you, then you're like, that's what I've been on the road. Because it's been sort of a diminishing return of, I mean, there's no auditions to have really,

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. I don't know. And so are your agents help with that, or do you have a separate booking agent for the road? We

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Don't want to go down the road of what is really, of how this is working for me.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I'm so indelicate because I see all the time.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, not at all. It's just

Michael Jamin:

I see you on Instagram performing and I'm like, you're doing, you're funny. You're great. It seems like you're doing fantastic in my eyes. So that's why I'm like, yeah,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I'm doing fantastic.

Michael Jamin:

And then you get booked on all these shows and I don't know. I don't know. I think you've done a pretty amazing career, mean, especially when you look at all that you have done.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah, look at it that way.

Michael Jamin:

It's

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Been really amazing. What do I get to do from here? I don't know. And honestly, looking back on it, I've never known it'd be a nice idea for me to be able to go, I'm going to have this. I'm going to have that, and that's going to pay off.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. So for me, I would be very, you're an artist, so an artist. So artists know that there's nothing, the freedom is, that's the trade-off making that trade off. So how are you making sure that you're good with that? How do you not worry about it? How do you not stress? How do you like, okay, I'm making art.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It's really scary.

Michael Jamin:

You lean into it.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah, I just lean into it and I've been lucky enough to get a certain amount of work, and I look back on the year and I go, I don't know how I did it.

Michael Jamin:

Really. Right. I have the same fear as myself. I'm like, okay, I've done it every year up till now, but I don't know how I'm going to do it this year. Same

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Thing. I've had enough success that I, hopefully I have the building blocks you're saying to be enough of a name to get in the door and make enough money to keep it going. It's just like a big gamble. And I think I'm saying we're going down a dark road. It's not that I'm negative about it because I really love my career and I love what I do, but it does get to the point where you're like, how much energy do I have? It's a life of sacrifice. I don't live the traditional life, especially now that I'm divorced. And it's like, what's going on? If you would've told me I would be driving to West Hollywood to do sets, I'm going, well, this feeds me. This helps me feel alive. It helps me feel creative. It must lead to something. And if it doesn't,

Michael Jamin:

But do you have friends from back where you grew up who have vastly different non Hollywood lives who've just taken these jobs where, and can you relate to them now?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No.

Michael Jamin:

When was the last time you tried? Because I was recently at an event where I saw some people I grew up with and I was like, they all seem so grown up.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

They really know what's going on.

Michael Jamin:

They,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

They really have these foundational beliefs, and they'll explain their insurance policies to you and they'll tell you about the drains in their yard. They have intimate knowledge of the duct work, and they're remodeling the kitchen and they're

Michael Jamin:

Right. It is always about the remodeling of the kitchen. That's the big one. And whenever I hear it, I always get a little insecure. I always feel like, am I doing something wrong?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Oh yeah, I get really, because they'll have the parties where it's the same people come into the same place. And so-and-so's bringing that same casserole again.

Michael Jamin:

And

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I don't have that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you don't have that?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No. My friends that I have in the twenties, everyone went off and had their lives. And also I've moved a lot of, and I get to socialize doing standup. But then you're like, hi, bye. And then you kind of go back to your life and

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, because I wonder, I don't know why I'm thinking of this, so I wonder if they have the same thoughts about your life. Are they like, man, Mary Lynn's got it, she did it. Or Mary Lynn doesn't have a, can't talk about drains.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I think it's both my best that it's probably like, oh gosh, that poor thing. She has no stability. On the other hand, it'll be the people that are like, can I go with you? Can I come on the road with you? And I'm like, really?

Michael Jamin:

I wonder, are they serious, do you think? Or what?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I don't know. There's different versions of it. There's the woman that I ran into that I went to high school with who had a son, I think at the time, this was years ago, she had a 12-year-old son. She's like, can I be your assistant and come on the road with you? And it's like, I don't know what she was worked at some company that sold fans or something like ceiling fans. I don't know what you think this is, but oh, you're going to take, first of all, I'm not going to pay you anything. If I'm able to pay anything, it's going to be a drastic pay cut and then what the same bed as me, and you're going to be away from your son. How does that work? And you're going to do exactly what.

Michael Jamin:

And do you ask them that? Or is it just like you just kind of change the subject?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I just change the subject.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. I think because obviously this,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It's kind of messed up. It's sort of a compliment of like, oh, you think this is some fantastical thing? Yeah, let's just change the subject and let that live in your mind as some other than what it actually is.

Michael Jamin:

They don't see the reality of it. They really don't, which is so interesting.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, it's part of the magic of going on stage and doing a show. I'm sure any person could stop and go, oh, she probably napped until 4:00 PM and didn't talk to anybody except for two words to the lady at the front desk. But you get to be there and have this show and have the magic of being in that moment and being in that space.

Michael Jamin:

Is it hard for you to come down after you perform?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I've gotten used to it.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, so what do you do? Do you hang out at the comedy club for a little bit or you just head back and go a little bit? You do a little bit, a little bit. Interesting. And then you can go back to sleep. I dunno, it's hard to come down from when you're on stage. You are in 100%. You're giving everything. You're not letting a moment. Your mind is racing. You're not letting anything. It's not like a day at the office where you get your feet up and you're really not paying attention. You are a hundred percent in it, and it's exhausting. A

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

High and a low. Yeah, for sure.

Michael Jamin:

It's exhausting, right? I mean, it really is. Yeah, it's great. But it's exhausting

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Typically. I mean, I'm not saying everyone's like this, but typically it's like sometimes you'll have friends in the city and they're like, oh, come with us to dinner. It's like, I'm not sitting for dinner before a show.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you got to focus, right? Do you run through your set before every show or you at the point you don't need to do that?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Well, right now I'm running through my set because I'm taping in Chicago, but I'm only doing one show. So I'm trying to trick myself because usually you do a whole weekend and I will get an idea of the set list. And then sometimes, a lot of times I will have an incident or some fact about the city. So I'll try to have that at the beginning as a greeting of something that happened that day or facts about their city. And depending on sometimes that'll be more fruitful than others, and that'll get me going. I'll think of something funny that I can just try off the cuff at the beginning of that.

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's interesting. So are you trying to give these shows a shape or is it just like, I want to give as many laughs as I can in however long I'm on stage, or is there a shape to it?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Usually as many laughs and I've gotten to the point where, and this is because I've done a ton of shows lately, it's gotten to the point where point, this last time I was out, I just went, I'm going to do my closer first once I get to the end of that to see where the energy is and to see what I say next.

Michael Jamin:

So you tried doing your closer first, which is going to be strong, and then what happened when you got to the end of your set? You're like, I don't have a closer now.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I mean, it was really fun. It was really exciting. It got it to this level and the energy carried through to the other pieces, and it kind of caused me to deliver the other things better, honestly.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's interest. That really is interesting.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Ending on something else, but I have enough to play around with where Yeah, you're kind of in your head. I'm going, oh, I guess I'm going to say that now I'm present, but I'm also moving things around a little bit.

Michael Jamin:

And it's that, you're right, it is about that. The excitement is when you don't get the laugh where you thought you were going to get a laugh, you go things, they're about to go off the rails, right?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah. The way you're thinking about this, I'm like, you're going to be on the road doing standup soon.

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. It's such a different thing. It really is such a different thing. Like I said, sometimes the audiences, well, sometimes they're not really there to see you. They're there to go out with their friends and have a drink and you're just in their way. You're talking through their night out in the town. I've seen it enough guys. It can be rude. Staff can be, they can be rude.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Go to a bar. What are you doing?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, what are you doing? Yeah, but I feel like when I, at least when I perform, it's a little different. They're there to ing. I feel like someone asked me before, what are you going to do if they heckle? I'm like, oh, no one's going to heckle. That's not that kind of show. I would assume that's not going to happen. Not that kind of show. It's like,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I'm sad I missed your LA show. So are you reading from your book and talking in between or

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's more performative. It's like a reading is here, but it is really up and out. It's up and out. It's kind of like, well, have you ever seen any David Seras? You ever seen it perform? Yeah, it's a little like that, but it's a little more performative, a little more, but that's what it is. So I'll let you know when the next time is, but yeah, it was a little terrifying the first time, and I had to take acting lessons. I had to learn how to act.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

You did

Michael Jamin:

Well. Yeah. I, I've directed actors, but it's one thing when you do it yourself. Here's the problem. My wife directed, and I met her when she was an actor, so she knows how to act because I met her on set, and so she directs it, and she's like, the first time we're rehearsing, she goes, you're taking the stage all wrong. I'm like, what do you mean? Because I'm walking on stage and it's like that. She's like, no, no, no, no, no. You're a rock star when you take the stage. I'm like, but I'm not a rock star. You are. When you take the stage and it's a whole different energy.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Imagine people going, it's Chloe from 24, and I'm like, hi guys. I just learned by throwing myself into that fire, like, oh, I have to match at least what their images of me and then more I've got to bring myself,

Michael Jamin:

Because they're coming to see someone famous. They're coming to see their favorite character on a TV show, whatever it is, and that's what they want. That's what they

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Want. Got to represent your work. Otherwise it's like, why is this guy,

Michael Jamin:

Why is this guy here?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Or it's like, what is that?

Michael Jamin:

They don't want that. That's exactly right. They don't want that.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

That is the equivalent of a strong choice out of the gate, a clear intention, but

Michael Jamin:

It felt like imposter syndrome, it felt like, but I'm not, it's too bad. That's what they want to see. That's what they paid to see. Yeah.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, that's great.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, so there's a bunch of stuff like that and also about Jesus, it's about giving, allowing, allowing there to be a silent moment for a second, which is terrifying. Oh

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah. I love the silences.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I mean, it's different when you're reading from your book, but through the acting point of view is because you're listening.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It's not meant to be like, here's what I'm saying. The words are an after effect of your intention and what you're reacting to.

Michael Jamin:

But in my case, there's an audience and it's dark. I can't see them. I know they're there. And so when you say I'm listening, I'm not hearing anything. I'm just sensing it, right?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Well, no, you're listening to, you are becoming a listener within your own material that you're presenting.

Michael Jamin:

You think I'm listening to myself,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

So you're like, standup is similar in that. I'm not explaining it so clearly, but it's like I had to learn in standup because I am an actor, that I'm the narrator, so I hold the space and I create the context, but I'm also the character within it. So it's the character that's listening. So you are presenting it. You're not the rockstar, but the character guy that's going to come. I'm telling you this story, and once I start telling you the story, I enter into that story and I become the character of the story.

Michael Jamin:

It's so interesting. You have given this thing, this performing thing, a lot of thought, right? Am I right? You think about this a lot. I mean, most actors or I don't think people appreciate that as much talking like an artist would talk. I really think so, because you're saying you've given a lot of thought. You're explaining the thought. You don't just go up there and talk. That's not what you're doing. You've given it a lot of thought about what your obligation is to being on stage and how you have to, I guess, the obligation to the art that you create.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Another point of that listening thing goes back to the point of view, which you do when you're writing scripts in order to write through that person's voice. Voice, listen, that character listens in a certain way, so it's their perspective,

Michael Jamin:

But call on a little bit more about, okay, so what is it you think I have to do or B, when I'm on stage, give me some acting. Give me some lessons here.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Well, it depends on what you're saying, but I think I was going off of you saying the silences imagining you take a moment because you've just said something and you're wanting to sink in, or what you've said had a certain tone, certain or intention that you don't want to rush through because you've either just made a point or you expressed something in a certain way that needs space.

Michael Jamin:

It requires a lot of trust though, because when you take that space, you want the audience, I want to let you feel it. Just take a second to feel it. But the trust it requires is that they are actually feeling it.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

That's right.

Michael Jamin:

And maybe they're not. That's the problem.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

That's right. Space in between is the dangerous, and when you talk about on, when I see you on ig, talking about AI is like, this is the back and forth that we want. This is the we come together. I'm going to say something. I'm going to see if it affects you. I'm going to say it with an intention. Did you hear it the way that I intended or did something else happen? Making me think of those articles. When you press listen and it comes out in an AI voice,

Michael Jamin:

What people, that's what they don't get. Yeah, that's what they don't get. When I talk about can AI do what artists do? And they go, yes, they can. I've already seen it, and they're like, I don't think you understand the thought that we put into this. I think you're missing what we try to do here.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

And you do that all the time, because I've watched a lot of your clips lately where you'll be explaining something and then you'll digress and go into a joke, and you're immediately without thinking about it because you thought of the joke, and then you're acting it out, and then you're going back to what you're saying. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

But sometimes even when I watch myself, I go, eh, I did it better in my head.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Exactly.

Michael Jamin:

That's exactly right. Yeah. But to me, so I'm glad you said this. I think that it actually helps me. That's the part that I was getting stuck on, the trusting that the audience is feeling what I want to feel in that silence and that they're not doing this or whatever.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Right now, you're in the position to deliver it, usually giving your script to someone else and going, you be in the Deliver it walk. I'll tell you, if you're delivering it, now you're in the driver's seat of that,

Michael Jamin:

And it really gives me a new appreciation for really how hard it is. And by the way, do it 10 times while the cameras are over here and while people are walking and, oh, this is going on. We need you to be in that moment 10 times and oh, off walk and go and now, yeah, it's a hard job being in that moment. Yeah,

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

That's the weirdest part.

Michael Jamin:

What do it now.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah, because you're making yourself vulnerable again and again, and you're coming to that point over of jumping off. I remember I was at school, it was like a game of throne sketch and there was another mom, and it was just that we were out on the lawn of the school and it was something for the fundraiser and one of the other moms were joking around, I'm doing my bit, and the camera turns to her and she's got whatever it was, whatever spoof of somebody wrote, it turns to her and she went and she got it, fucked her up. And I started laughing and I was like, yeah, it's humiliating. And she had to say, it was like one line as my dragons, and she just went, ah. And I watched her just crumble. And I go, yeah, yeah, yeah. That moment every time you hit that point of humiliation because you've got to open up and commit and put yourself out there to make an ass of yourself or put the most tender parts of yourself, you're getting ready for the moment and then when the moment happens, I don't know. It's a weird thing you're showing up. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Exactly. You said it perfectly. I totally understand that. And so she just thought this was going to be easy and it made you laugh because it's like, see, this is every day I got to do this

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Weird thing. Well, I don't know why someone is holding a camera. They just turned it on you and they said, say a certain thing in a certain way. How do you do that?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It makes you self-conscious of your existence now you Right. And then what do you do then when you're on, when you become aware of your existence and your acting, what do you do?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

What do you do? You're heads and the cameras are on you and you're like, oh fuck, I'm in a show. There's lights and everything.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

That's the question. Hopefully you get paid for it is what you do.

Michael Jamin:

Hopefully you

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Get paid to figure out,

Michael Jamin:

You get paid, right. But so do you talk to other actors a lot about this? Is this a conversation actress? Why not?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, but when I do, because I should more, it's actually is really, honestly, it's pretty invigorating. But I'll run into people and we'll sort of organically stumble upon it. Maybe there are people that talk about it. I don't, it's very nice when I get to have comradery like

Michael Jamin:

That. But when you've been on set and you surely you've worked with some, let's say, older, bigger stars, you don't ask 'em, Hey, how about some tips? What do you do?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Not really. I mean, there was one thing I wrote about it in my book called Ish, also my podcast at that. Woo. You do. But there

Michael Jamin:

Was one, and that's a great title by the way.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Thank you so much. It's on the 24 where I had to act to a blank computer screen, but someone I knew or cared about was being tortured. But in the moment it was like go and I was just by myself in front of a blank computer screen and I did ask Kiefer's advice and it was super helpful. And he really actually stood off screen and talked me through it. So he became my partner and he was telling me what I was seeing. So he helped me with some.

Michael Jamin:

What was the advice he gave specifically, do you remember?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It wasn't really advice, he just helped me. It was like, okay, he's on the bike, the guys are coming up to him. They grabbed his head, he fell on the ground. So I was reacting. He was acting out the scene for me

Michael Jamin:

And he

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Letting me know that I wasn't crazy for going, how do you do this? I'm sitting in front of the blank screen. And so in that moment, from that point on, if he wasn't there, I knew how to, I'm just creating that in my head.

Michael Jamin:

A lot of people think that's the job of the director on a TV show, but often there's really no time for them to even do any of that, right?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

Correct. They're thinking of a bunch of different things and they might course correct you, but they're not giving you, this is the actor's work is to know all that. They'll make adjustments along the way, but they're looking at all these other aspects at the same time.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It's not what maybe you think it is. It's not like a rehearsal time. It's like, no, you show up to work. Go and go. Did you study? Did you train a lot for, where did you train for?

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

No, I was lucky enough to get very much on the job training

Michael Jamin:

Because the way you talk about it, it makes it sound like you did study.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I mean, I've taken a couple classes here or there, but nothing. It was sort of on the fly. I did acting in high school, so I knew I sort of knew what blocking was, but I really got schooled. I got schooled by Gary Shambling. I was already on the Larry Show, and I put this in my book too, and he's like, cut. And he looks at me and he goes, what are you thinking? I was like, oh, because he called me out because I wasn't anything. And I was like, and he goes, you need to know what your character is thinking. I was reacting and I was interesting, but at the moment he knew there was a backstory that I was supposed to have in my mind and I didn't. And he called me out on it. And from that point forward, I was like, oh, subtext. I was just like a part. I just happened to be whatever, lucky enough to be interesting or have certain qualities. I got hired and I sort of instinctually did it. But from that moment on, I was like, subtext, subtext, subtext.

Michael Jamin:

So this discussion we just had, these are just basically questions you've been asking yourself over the course of your career and thinking about Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is so interesting. Like other actors, you're talking about stuff that's been taught and you came to it yourself, and it's only the way you came to it is because you have to ask these questions. If you're an actor, it doesn't matter if it's your teacher teaches you or you figure it out yourself, it all leads to the truth, which is what you have to do. Or

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

A lot of times it's like how to make something work like you're hired or even you're asked to do a comedy sketch and it's like, how do I sell this joke, but be true to the intention, but move the scene forward. Also, it could be anything. It could be like, oh, I'm at a table so that I am not seeing that thing that would've caused me to react. It's just, yeah, you're always being asked questions. How do I thing quickly or whatever.

Michael Jamin:

It's a shame that our show didn't go, we could have had this discussion 10 years ago.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I know we really could have been creating episodes

Michael Jamin:

And talking about stuff and making art or something, but instead we have podcasts. Well, I guess we could wrap, but I've taken so much of your time. But I want to thank you so much for, let's talk about, let's plug your podcast one more time and make sure, is there any, well, I don't know when this is going to drop, or also I'd say see you on the road, but you must have a website where people could find out where they can follow you on the road or your Instagram or something.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

It's Mary Lynn, mary lynn.com. Follow me on Instagram and go check out at that. Will you do in between listening to your podcast?

Michael Jamin:

Oh yeah. Go. Definitely check it out. And yeah, it's interesting. I think this will have people have a new appreciation for what you do because you make it look easy, but it's not, you put a lot of thought into this.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

I love it. I really do. So, so great. I'm so happy that you're having all this success on social because you're just very natural and insightful and inquisitive and caring and thoughtful.

Michael Jamin:

I hope so. That's the character I play. That's my character.

Mary Lynn Rajskub:

You're a factor.

Michael Jamin:

My character is nicer than I am. But thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining me, and don't go anywhere I was. Thank you. One more time as we sign up. Alright everyone, another interesting talk about art and writing and creativity. Thank you so much. Until next week, keep writing or doing whatever it's you're doing.

So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin's talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @Michael Jamiwriter and you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

Show Notes

Chris Gorham on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chrisgorham/

Chris Gorham IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0330913/

Chris Gorham on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Gorham

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletter

Autogenerated Transcript

Chris Gorham:

But in getting to know them and talking to them, Almost all of them had day jobs, like worked for the city, Worked, worked for construction crews. They had full-on-day Jobs. Some of them were Entrepreneurs, some of them worked in government. And that was a New idea to me because that hadn't been my experience here. But as the income and equality has increased so dramatically, It feels like that's where our business has been going, where everybody has to have another,

Michael Jamin:

You are listening to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.

Chris Gorham:

Like my backdrop, this is my, oh, I love it. Official SAG after LA delegate backdrop that we used him during the convention.

Michael Jamin:

I know you're a big show. We're starting already. I'm here with Chris Gorham, and he is an actor I worked with many years ago on a show called Out of Practice. He's one of the stars that was a show with starting Henry Winkler, stocker Channing, Ty Burrell, Chris Gorham, and Paul Marshall. It was a great show on CBS and only lasted a season. But Chris, Chris is about as successful working actors as you can, short of being like someone like Brad Pitt, who's known across the world. You've done a ton of TV shows, and I'm going to blow through them real fast here.

Chris Gorham:

Okay. You can, I can't talk about them still, but your strike is over so you can,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, right, because Chris is, I guess he's in sag and actually you're one of the members, you're one of the, what do you call yourself, the king? So

Chris Gorham:

I'm the king of SAG aftra. No, I was elected to be on the LA local board and also elected as a delegate. So that's what this background was. Our official LA delegate background for

Michael Jamin:

The research delegate for for the model. What does that mean

Chris Gorham:

For the convention? Yeah. It's kind of reminiscent of Model un. So it's the convention that happens every two years where all the delegates get together and we elect the executive vice president, and there's certain offices that get elected by the delegate membership.

Michael Jamin:

I don't think we have that in the Writer's Guild. I think we have a direct democracy. You, I guess have a representative democracy.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Yeah. It's a much bigger union. How big

Michael Jamin:

Is it? How big do you know? About

Chris Gorham:

160,000 members.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Okay. Members, but that's active members. And what do you have to be to be an active member?

Chris Gorham:

What do you have to be? Do

Michael Jamin:

You have to sell? You have to work a certain amount or something?

Chris Gorham:

No, once you're in, you can stay in as long as you pay your dues

Michael Jamin:

Every year. Oh, okay. But then that doesn't mean you get health. You have to qualify for health insurance and stuff like that. Correct.

Chris Gorham:

Well, it's a big part of the strike. It's one of our big talking points really is only about 13% and just under 13% earn enough to qualify for our healthcare plan. And I mean, that's only about $26,700 a year to qualify for healthcare.

Michael Jamin:

That's a big deal. I mean, healthcare, healthcare. So most people don't realize this, and it seems so naive to say this, but I get so many comments when on social media, all these actors are millionaires. Dude, what are you talking about? You can be a working actor and book two gig. You're lucky if you do two gigs a year. And

Chris Gorham:

Well listen, it goes to the heart of what this strike is about is that it's worse than people even think because just to what's the best way to talk about it? So a big part of our asked during this negotiation is a big increase in the contributions to our health and pension plan by the producers. And the reason is that they haven't increased it in a long, long, long, long time. So for instance, one person could work, let's say you got hired to do an episode and got paid very well, right? For one episode. Let's say you're getting it, it's an anthology show. They're paying the top two people like series regulars, and you're getting a hundred grand for one episode. So you would think a hundred thousand dollars. That is a lot of money for one episode. If I'm doing that, I am clear. Definitely qualify. You do not qualify for healthcare because you've only done one episode and the producers only have to contribute up to a certain amount. So even though you've made a hundred grand in one episode, you still have to book another job, at least one more

Michael Jamin:

And clear,

Chris Gorham:

Not going to qualify for healthcare.

Michael Jamin:

I've produced a lot of shows. I don't recall ever paying a guest star anywhere close to a hundred thousand an episode. No, not even close.

Chris Gorham:

No, no. And the minimums have, right now, I think for a drama, the minimum's around $9,000, maybe a little more than that for an episode for top of Show guest start like the top paid guest shows on those shows. Yeah, you can't. And it's become almost impossible to negotiate a rate higher than the minimums.

Michael Jamin:

You can have a quote and they go, well, that's too bad. This is what we're paying you.

Chris Gorham:

Correct. This is what we're paying you.

Michael Jamin:

Let me just run through some of yours so people know who we're talking about because some people are listening to it. So Chris is, I'm going to blow some of his bigger parts, but he works so much. So let's start with Party of Five where you did four episodes, which I love that show. I just had to mention that, but of course, popular. You did a ton of those. Felicity, remember that? Odyssey five, Jake 2.0, which you started in medical investigation out of practice, which I mentioned Harper's Island Ugly Betty, Betty Laa, which I loved, of course, covert Affairs and what else? I'm going through your list here. Full Circle two Broke Girls. You worked with two of the broke girls and insatiable the Lincoln lawyer, and that doesn't include any of your guest chart. So you are incredibly successful actor and you've strung, actually, I want to hit on something. Sure. So this is a little embarrassing on my part. We had a technical, this is our second interview because I had technical errors on my point. I'm not that good with technology, even though I've done well over a hundred episodes of this, and Chris graciously allowed me to do this over. But one of the things that you said, the thing that struck me the most during our last talk, which I found incredibly interesting and humble, I said to you, Chris, how do you choose your roles? And do you remember what you said to me?

Chris Gorham:

Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. I said, I should be so lucky. Yeah. The reality is, it's like actors like me. I've had a lot of conversations with actors like me who star on television shows, multiple television shows, and we all joke about how many times we've been asked in interviews. The question

Michael Jamin:

Really,

Chris Gorham:

Why did you choose this to be your next project?

Michael Jamin:

Right. Well, I wanted to eat. That's why.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah, yeah. Because I think journalists sometimes forget, and they think that we're all to use your example, Brad Pitt, and that we're being sent scripts and we get to choose what our next project is, but in reality, that is not at all. What happens, what happens for the vast majority of us is we are sent auditions. Sometimes we get the scripts, sometimes we don't. And we put ourselves now what used to be going to the casting office. Now we put ourselves on tape and we send it off into the void, and we hope that we get hired.

Michael Jamin:

And you'll work on a part. When you do get the script, how long will you spend preparing for that before you submit your tape?

Chris Gorham:

Oh, it depends mostly on two things. One, how many pages it is, and then it depends on how well written it's, to be honest. You've heard this before.

Michael Jamin:

Go ahead. Tell me.

Chris Gorham:

The better the writing, the easier it is to memorize.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And explain why that is.

Chris Gorham:

Well, the reason is is because it makes sense. If it's written like a human being talks, then the next sentence follows from the sentence before. If you understand the emotion of what's going on, then it just makes sense and the dialogue flows and it's just so much easier to memorize. The stuff that's always the hardest is when you're the character that's laying pipe and you're just spewing out exposition and it's not really coming. Listen, the good writers are always trying to tie it down to that emotional reality, but sometimes you got to lay pipe, and that's stuff's always the hardest, particularly if it's a bunch of medical jargon or legal jargon. That kind of stuff is crazy.

Michael Jamin:

And what people don't also realize, I think, is when you're starting out an actor, oh, I could play everything. I could play a villain. I could play a teacher, I could play a biker, I could play a doctor. That's fine when you're in your high school play, but in Hollywood, you're going to be cast the part that you are closest to because if not, we will cast someone who looks like a biker or who was a biker, and we'll cast someone who looks like a doctor. Right? Yeah. So you have to figure out who you are, basically.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Well, it's one of the, I went to theater school at UCLA and I was very lucky because during my freshman year, they decided to start a conservatory program within the theater program there. So we all auditioned and I got into this conservatory program. So for my last three years, it was conservatory training, and I still got my bachelor of arts degree from UCLA. It was the best of both worlds. One of the things that I felt like a few years out after having it is I wished they had spent a little bit more time helping us learn how to act like ourselves. You spend so much time in theater school, learning how to stretch your creativity, working on your voice, working on your body movement, body awareness, vocal awareness, and then learning how to play all these different kinds of parts and all the plays you're doing. All the parts are filled from college students. So sometimes you're playing an old man, sometimes you're playing a young woman who knows. But the second you start auditioning for roles professionally, you're only going to be seen for roles that you physically look like. And so it's really important to quickly learn if you haven't already, how to be you. Right. How do you do that version of you?

Michael Jamin:

Where do you begin with that?

Chris Gorham:

Well, it takes practice. We used to do an exercise. It was in one of the very beginning acting classes. In fact, I didn't even take this acting class. I was observing, I think my senior year, one of the grad students was teaching it. And it was just as simple as everybody got in circle and instead of being crazy and dancing like a tree or whatever, it was literally, it was just walk across. Just walk from point A to point B. Just you just don't do anything. Just walk from what, and you would be surprised how difficult that can be because

Michael Jamin:

You become self-conscious of what you're

Chris Gorham:

Exactly right. You become and you feel like you should do something mean. And especially for a bunch of theater kids who've kind of grown up in their theater school, all high schools and stuff all over, it's all about being big, and it's all about the jokes and getting attention and to let all of that go and just be in the market is a very difficult thing for a lot of people. But it's super, super important. And that carries through forever. Just being just be there. You don't have to do anything, particularly when you have a camera on you, and particularly when it's time for your closeup, you don't have to do a lot. You just have to be there and be present and alive in the scene.

Michael Jamin:

But so much, I think some people, they greatly underestimate how difficult acting is because it looks like make-believe and whatever. We're just, you're having fun on the camera, but to be in the moment, especially when the cameras are on you and everyone's watching in, go hurry up and go, because we've set up the scene for half hour and we want you to shoot it now. And it's so hard to stay in the moment, I think. So how do you stay in the moment when you become conscious that you're acting

Chris Gorham:

Now? If I become conscious that I'm acting now, I'll just stop.

Michael Jamin:

You will

Chris Gorham:

Often I'll just stop and say, can we start over? Can we just go back to the top because for whatever reason, and then go again. Because if I'm conscious, then I'm not in a scene, then it's not going to work and they're not going to be able to use it. So I would just stop and go back. I mean, it's the great advantage of film, right?

Michael Jamin:

But you do much theater anymore, because that's different when you're on stage.

Chris Gorham:

I only feel like benefits and things for years. We're rehearsing for one this weekend, we're doing the Girls Benefit to raise money for breast cancer research.

Michael Jamin:

So it's one show.

Chris Gorham:

It's one show. I mean, for me, I've been a single income family of five for almost 23 years. So with that, I haven't able to afford to go and do theater, but I miss it. I love it. I did two weeks, 14 years ago, I did two weeks in Spalding Gray Stories left to Tell in New York off Broadway.

Michael Jamin:

Really? So you were Spalding Gray, I mean, it's a one man show,

Chris Gorham:

Right? Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a one man show split into five different personalities. So it's different parts of him. And so the business part, they would swap out celebrities every two weeks. And so I came in and did that for two weeks, and it was the best.

Michael Jamin:

And this was in New York?

Chris Gorham:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

That's amazing. How did something like that come up? How do you get that?

Chris Gorham:

I don't know. I don't remember. I don't mean it must've come through my agents or my manager. I don't remember. I don't remember.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. How interesting.

Chris Gorham:

Because now, I was just going to say now, it's been so long since I've done, I've become, I'm so out of the loop of LA theater in particular, which is kind of more feasible for me at this point, just because it's close and easy. I don't even really know how to get back in. In fact, one of my youngest was doing a summer theater camp at Annoys Within, and it's close to where we are. So I was trying to figure out, I reached out to my manager, I was like, Hey, is really close. Is there, are they doing anything that would make sense for me to do something with them over there? They were like, yeah, that's a great idea. And they never heard anything. So I just emailed them my photo and resume with a letter, and I never heard anything back. So I literally, I don't even know how to approach getting cast in theater anymore,

Michael Jamin:

Because your agent, there's not enough money for your agent to work on it.

Chris Gorham:

They couldn't be less interested.

Michael Jamin:

I'm always curious how that works. We just saw a show at the Pasadena Playhouse and I was like, well, how do these actors, how do they, yeah, if

Chris Gorham:

You find out, let me know the Playhouse also write down the street. It'd be amazing.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, there's always some, but then again, you would have to commit to something. And during that time period, let's say it was two months, you can't take other work you've committed and something big could come along, who knows? I

Chris Gorham:

Mean, maybe. But also that is, you live with that fear all the time, no matter what

Michael Jamin:

Do you mean even if you're on a show, you mean?

Chris Gorham:

Well, not if you're on a show, then you're working well, then you worry about the show being canceled and then that you're never going to work again. But when you're not working, well, this brings up two thoughts. One is there's a fear of taking something that's not the big thing, because you are afraid that if you do this smaller thing that it's going to conflict with the big thing that might be just around the court. And the other thought that it brings up is I talked with so many actors over the years who are not working and are really struggling and feel paralyzed about going to try and do anything else because there's this intense peer pressure that, well, you can't quit. You can't quit now that your moment, it might be just around the corner, it might be the next audition.

Michael Jamin:

You mean quit Hollywood and do something for a different career, you

Chris Gorham:

Mean? Yeah, go do something else. You got to hang in. You got to hang in. And I feel like it's a really difficult balancing act because the truth is that this business is really, really hard to go back to the strike. It's gotten increasingly difficult to the point where it's almost impossible with an actor to make a living, to be able to raise a family, to be able to put your kids through college and those kind of life things that are important to so many of us.

Michael Jamin:

And I know, and that's why you fight and that's why you fight. And that's why it's so people think, well, so what for actors? But the problem is like you're saying, if actors can't make a living in between or you're starring in a show, that's great, but the show will probably get canceled up to one season. But you still need to keep a healthy talent pool of actors who can continue to keep a living, because if they can't, they're going to leave. And then how are you going to cast as writers and producers? How do you cast this part if there's not a healthy talent pool? That's

Chris Gorham:

It. That's it. We can't continue paying the stars these massive, massive, massive amounts of money and having everybody else working on these tiny minimums because it's unsustainable. The best and the brightest of us that haven't won the lottery are going to go do other things because there's more to life and life. You can be an actor without pursuing it as a career.

Michael Jamin:

But I haven't heard those notions come up at all. Maybe I'm not just tuned in, but the idea of, well, maybe we're paying the stars too much, or has that been a discussion at all?

Chris Gorham:

I mean, I have that discussion. Yeah. Oh, really? Well, yeah, because it's not that, well, certainly for me, and not so much from my personal experience, but just from my kind of bleeding heart observations of this business, when you see movies, it's why, like I've said for a long time, the only way now to make a living in this business is if you're a star or a series regular on a TV show.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yes, I agree with that. It's the

Chris Gorham:

Only way because all of the supporting cast, none of the supporting cast makes enough money to make a consistent living in this business because your stars get massive amounts of money. Everyone else is working scale, and the minimums have not risen nearly enough to make it enough. And the stars, well, this is the excuse the studios use, is that they're paying the stars so much. There's no money left to pay anybody else over scale, so no one else can negotiate over scale. And in tv it's a similar thing. So it just makes it very difficult.

Michael Jamin:

And not only that, LA has always been an expensive city to live, but now it's crazy. It's like crazy. I can't afford, if I hadn't bought my house when I did it, I couldn't even come close to affording this house and have a middle class house. It's something special about it. So these are the issues that actors are fighting over. Yeah, it's an important, it's so interesting when you hear your friends or colleagues thinking about leaving, do they tell you what they're going to do or what they want to do? It's such a hard thing when you're middle aged, what are you going to do?

Chris Gorham:

Right. No, it's true. It's true. No, I have some friends that have gone into teaching.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Most of my actor friends are still around. Have one friend who started the business ages ago and still runs that business while she's worked periodically as an actor throughout all of these years. And she still works frequently, but her main income is from this business that she created. Right.

Michael Jamin:

She's very, so you got to be entrepreneurial, basically. Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. It's funny. I did a movie early in my career where we shot in Tonga and New Zealand, and we had a lot of New Zealand actors were working on this film and in talk, and some of them were quite famous in New Zealand. They were working on this famous New Zealand TV show, like legitimate celebrities. But in getting to know them and talking to them, almost all of them had day jobs, worked for the city, worked, worked in construction crews. They have full on day jobs. Some of them were entrepreneurs, some of them worked in government. And that was a new idea to me because that hadn't been my experience here. But as the income inequality has increased so dramatically, it feels like that's where our business has been going, where everybody has to have another gig.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

It didn't used to be that way. And I don't think that it has to be that way.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely, yeah, it seems very unfair. It doesn't seem, well, I mean, I guess all things is fair about being an actor. Being an actor has always been a pursuit of like, well, is there anything else you could do? Then choose that? But true, it seems like now it's like, I don't know. What do you do? What recommend then for people, young kids or kids, whatever, 20 year olds who considering getting into the business?

Chris Gorham:

Yeah, I mean, that advice I think is evergreen. That if you can go do something else as a career, absolutely do something else as a career. Oftentimes the advice I give is when you're young, spend a lot less time thinking about what you want to be when you grow up and spend a lot more time thinking about what kind of life you want to live when you grow up, what kind of things do you want to do? And then you can find career paths that will allow you to live the kind of life you want to live. And it becomes less obsessed with having a certain job.

Michael Jamin:

Well, that's something to consider. So for you as a working actor, sometimes you'll be on location, you might be in a different city. Is that something you away from your family, which is hard as you were raised in a family, is that something you considered? Is that something you would reconsider now?

Chris Gorham:

I had no idea. I grew up in Fresno, California. My mom was a school nurse. My dad was an accountant. They didn't know what to do with me, and I didn't know anything about the business. I wanted to be. Yeah, I didn't know. Yeah. I had no idea. And so my first, and I was very fortunate. I got out of school, I started, I got my union card in 1996, the year I got out of school was booking occasional guest stars on things. My first job was one scene in a movie with two big movie stars, big famous director. It was awesome. And then I booked my first series just three years after school. Cool. And it was shot at Disney. It was like 10 minutes away from our little place we were renting. And then it was canceled and it came out of nowhere. And then I was very fortunate again. I booked another series two weeks later, but that one shot until long

Michael Jamin:

And

Chris Gorham:

I had no idea what that meant. And I left to do that pilot six weeks after our first born son, our firstborn was born. So my wife, anal had no idea what no idea we were doing. Suddenly we had a newborn baby, six weeks old, and then I'm gone for five weeks. It was extraordinarily difficult.

Michael Jamin:

I apologize. Something must be open and I have to shut it down because someone's, I'm sorry.

Chris Gorham:

Oh, no worries. Okay.

Michael Jamin:

I thought everything shut. But yeah, so to continue, so that's heartbreaking. You have a brand new baby and you're out of town. You left here.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. It was hard. And we didn't, because we didn't grow up here, so we had no experience. I don't know how to do this. And no one was really kind explaining to us, okay, this is how you get through this. These are the different ways you can do it. These are the options. You know what I mean? I didn't have anybody, I didn't have a mentor or somebody guiding me in how to do this thing.

Michael Jamin:

But at any point in your career, you must, because worked for so many actors, you must have at some point found someone a little older and wiser. Right?

Chris Gorham:

Well, the closest thing we had was Anelle had Stacey Winkler. It was really sweet. Anelle used to sit next to Stacey Winkler at every taping, and they would just talk and Stacey would give her advice, and it was great. One week, Anelle come to the taping, and the next week Stacey scolded her and was like, you have to be here every week and let everyone know that that is your husband.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. I remember she came to, I think every out of practice,

Chris Gorham:

Everyone.

Michael Jamin:

So why is it about staking your territory? What was that? Or is this being supportive?

Chris Gorham:

What was it? No, I think it was both, but I think partly staking your territory. I was the young guy, the young handsome guy on this show, and it's a CVS show, and so she was like, you need to be here. But then it was also she said, but then he's the star here at work. You have to make sure that when you get home, the kids are the star, not him. You have to make it very

Michael Jamin:

Clear. Was there a difficulty for you? Is it hard to go home and not be the star? What was that like?

Chris Gorham:

I had gotten pretty good at it, certainly by then. But I would imagine looking back in the beginning, it's kind of that power corrupt and absolute power. Corrupt absolutely. Of course can go to your head when you are getting a little famous and you're making some money. And when you're at work, you are catered to, you're one of the stars of the show. You're catered to a handed foot. Everything's taken care of. I've described it as series regulars are treated like fancy

Michael Jamin:

Babies on set.

Chris Gorham:

Don't upset the babies. You need to keep them safe at all times. You need to keep them comfortable at all times. You don't want them crying. You don't want them cranky. You need to keep them fully regulated because when everything's ready to roll, we need the fancy babies to be able to perform. And as soon as they're done, we want them to go back to their cribs slash trailers so that then the grownups can finish getting everything ready for the next shot.

Michael Jamin:

And imagine giving this kind of pressure to a child actor. I mean, have you worked with many child actors?

Chris Gorham:

Yeah, many over the years, and I can say almost all of it. Almost all of it's been a good experience. I haven't had any total nightmares with child doctors. That being said, every parent that's asked us about getting their kid into the business, we have always advised against it. And we didn't encourage any of our kids to get into it.

Michael Jamin:

It's rough. I haven't worked with many child, I just haven't been on shows with a lot of kids. And I am glad because I have a feeling I would when a kid is messing around on set in between takes or just not being professional because they're acting like children the way they are supposed to act. In my mind I would be thinking, stop fucking around. This is work. I know that's what I would be thinking, which is an awful thing to put on a child. But that's what you're paying them a lot of money to do. It's a hard position. I don't know. I just feel for those kids, I just feel like, yeah, I know. That's where Ill be thinking. Hopefully I wouldn't be saying it. Yeah,

Chris Gorham:

It's difficult. It's very, I mean, sets are, they're not for kids. They're an adult work environments, which by the way, some adult working actors need to be reminded occasionally that these are adult working environments. This is not your personal playground. But yeah, it's a difficult environment for kids. So I mean, you need them. So I'm grateful that they're there.

Michael Jamin:

I think that too sometimes. Sometimes I'll see an actor goofing around too much, and we're all, I'm like, dude, let's get out of here. All the crew wants to go home. They've been working 12 hour days for the past week and a half. They want to go home too.

Chris Gorham:

Well, let me tell you, this is one of the things where with every showrunner that I've become friendly with, I highly encourage them, if at all possible, to bring their series regulars behind the curtain and bring them to at least one production meeting that show them how the sausage really gets made, expose them to all of the other incredibly creative, intelligent, wonderful people who make up this team that makes the TV show or the film. Because then they get to see, because as cast, especially as the stars of the show or the film, you really are treated as if you are the most important cog in this machine. And it's really helpful, I think, and just the team morale, if actors understand that they are a very important cog in that machine, but just one of the cogs in the machine. You

Michael Jamin:

Said you learned this, I think when you first were directing, you started directing episodes of the shows, you weren't, right?

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. I had think a basic actor's understanding of how things work on set. And I'm not to blow my own horn. I'm generally a nice person. So I'm kind to people. I'm nice to everybody on set. I learned people's names. I generally understood what people did, but only when I started directing did I really understand just how incredible the whole ensemble is and how much the rest of the team has to offer and is contributing to the show or the film. It was just a level of respect that I don't think I could really have until I was allowed behind the curtain to see how it was happening. So what

Michael Jamin:

Would you recommend? Would you recommend that every week one actor attends a production meeting? Is that what you're saying?

Chris Gorham:

Listen, that's one way to do it. Right. However it works for that showrunner, for that production, I would just encourage them because I just feel like so often, and I think, I don't know if it's true now, but I've talked to showrunners in the past that have talked about the show and the training program and about the message they got was to keep the cast at arm's length. Really? Yeah. And there certainly can be good reasons for doing that. I can understand why that sometimes makes the job easier, certainly, and sometimes maybe makes it possible. But I just think there's more to gain by bringing them in to letting them see, really meet the whole team and get to know the whole team. And because there's just, I mean, truly, you see what the set designers do, and you see what the customers do, and you see, we get to understand how lighting works. You know what I mean? It's just how hard the ads work on putting together with the schedule and learn why the schedule gets put way put together the way it gets put together. And once you understand it, then maybe you're a little less mad about having to be last in on Friday, two weeks in a row.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

You see, it's like they're not out to get you. They are trying to accommodate you, and you are not the only factor that is being accommodated.

Michael Jamin:

You're talking about the writers now?

Chris Gorham:

No, I was talking about the cast look, in regards to schedule casting,

Michael Jamin:

Very, very frustrated

Chris Gorham:

About scheduling.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I see. Yeah, that's always right. I can see why that would be frustrating. So what happens? You get a call sheet and you're told to come in whatever, 8:00 AM and they don't get to shoot your part until 1:00 PM and you're like, why did they call me in so early? And sometimes it just happens. It works out that way

Chris Gorham:

Sometimes. Yeah. They're trying. They're trying. And sometimes it just doesn't work out. And with the scripts, with writers, it's a similar kinds of thing. It's like once you understand how many chefs are in the kitchen of getting these scripts, these stories broken, and then these scripts written how many notes the writer has gotten about their script from the studio and then from the network before it ever gets to the cast.

Michael Jamin:

You're making me anxious just talking about it. No joke.

Chris Gorham:

Sorry. And then that's why as a cast member, when you then go to the writer and say, Hey, can I ask you about this? Your writer looks like they're dying a little inside.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. No, no, I can't do that.

Chris Gorham:

And it's like, so the best writers that I've worked with have always been very organized about how actors give notes. They're like, if we're doing table reads on a show, they'll be like, look, we're going to do the table read. Everybody's got 24 hours to give whatever notes or feedback you've got about the script. And then after that, we're considering it locked. Please respect that once you're on. The idea being that you don't want to spend a lot of time on the day when you're there waiting to shoot, talking about suddenly having questions about the scene and asking it to be rewritten. That's not the term.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's not. And because we have to get next week's script and next week's script is a disaster. I'm telling you, it's in terrible shape. That's how it always is.

So you want to worry about this. What about the crashing plane out there? That's going to be, I remember, I have to show, I can't remember if I mentioned this last time we spoke, but one of my favorite experiences of working in Hollywood was when I was an out of practice, and I can't remember what I was doing. I think the showrunner, Chris, I think he had me deliver pages up to the actress. It was show night right before the show, and I don't know why it was made, but for some reason, I remember carrying a couple of scripts to the dressing room maybe an hour before the showtime, and you guys were all there, the whole cast, and you're holding hands. And Henry's like, come on, Michael, come on in, come on. And I'm like, what's going on right here? And you're all just holding hands. And he goes, and he invited me in. I'm like, but I'm a writer. What do you mean? No, grab some hands. So I remember taking who, who's hands? I don't know, but I'm in the middle. I'm with a circle. I'm holding hands. I'm like, what is going on here? And then you guys did, I don't know what you would call it, but it was some kind of, it's

Chris Gorham:

Like a little vocal warmup or something. No,

Michael Jamin:

It was almost like a blessing. It was like a blessing. It was almost like, what's it, we are here to, I am curious if you've done this since then. It was like, we are here to support each other. We're going to have a wonderful show. We're all together. We're a family. And it was almost spiritual. It was very, I guess you haven't done that. You don't remember this.

Chris Gorham:

I remember doing that. I don't remember that specific moment. But that was all Henry.

Michael Jamin:

But it wasn't every week that you guys did

Chris Gorham:

That. Every week we did that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Okay.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Every week it was our ritual, but Henry started as the ritual before we went down to start the show. We would have this time just with a cast or occasionally with a writer who'd come in.

Michael Jamin:

I thought it was a beautiful moment. I really did.

Chris Gorham:

It was really great on dramas. You don't do that because you don't have that moment where you're all together about to go start the show. That's already happened to me on sitcoms.

Michael Jamin:

So maybe it's a theater thing then. Do you think

Chris Gorham:

For sure it's a theater thing. Yes. Yes.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. So tell me, this happens on other employees always before every show or before every night. Opening night every night. Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

I mean, of course it depends on the show, right? It depends on who's there and who's, but yeah, thinking back, even when I was a kid in Fresno doing local theater, they would always feed circle up right before Showtime.

Michael Jamin:

Is that what they call, is there a name for this circle up? What is it?

Chris Gorham:

No, no. That's just what I'm

Michael Jamin:

Using. So there's no name

Chris Gorham:

For you get in the huddle. You get in the huddle.

Michael Jamin:

But I really thought, I still remember it. I was touched by it that this is something that you guys did to support each other so that you could hold space and feel safe in front of a crowd and know it was a very team thing. And I was like, wow. I felt almost like I was invading it. I felt like I don't belong here because I'm not on stage with you guys. But that's what I remember. It struck me. Something else that always struck me was how well guest stars were greeted by the regular cast. That's a very, very position. You've been on both sides of that,

Chris Gorham:

Right? Yeah, for sure.

Michael Jamin:

For sure. What's that on both sides for you?

Chris Gorham:

I've worked on shows where I have, where series regulators never spoke to me. We were in a scene together, but outside of the scene never spoke to me.

Michael Jamin:

So action. And this is the first time you're talking to them.

Chris Gorham:

Correct.

Michael Jamin:

I suppose that could be good if your characters were just meeting for the first time, but is there

Chris Gorham:

Sure. I guess. I guess

Michael Jamin:

I guess.

Chris Gorham:

But we could, we're professionals. We could pretend. But that was pretty early in my career. Now I don't really have that experience anymore. But also, I took it with me and I made it a point, having had that happen once or twice early in my career, that once I was the series regular, I've always made it a point to never ever do that,

Michael Jamin:

To always welcome the guest star and just absolutely greet them. It's a hard thing to stay. I mean, think about it's the first day of school for them. Yeah. You're walking into, you don't know anybody. I,

Chris Gorham:

No, it's difficult enough. Like you said, this is a difficult job. And why make it harder on somebody who is coming in on the bottom of the rung of power at this show? Why would you use the very real power that you wield

Michael Jamin:

Show it's It is real.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Why would you wield that to make someone who's on your team, right? Uncomfortable. Why you?

Michael Jamin:

But we know these actors. I'm the star. I want you. I want to remind you. It's like, dude, we know. We know.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. There are people like that. I feel like that's the exception. It happens. Oh, really? But I feel like it's the exception.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?

One thing we also spoke about, which was very interesting to me, was I don't know what they call now, I guess, what do they call? They call it sex coordinators. What is the role for those people

Chris Gorham:

Who, oh, intimacy

Michael Jamin:

Coordinators. Intimacy coordinators. But you mentioned that they have other functions. It is not just when two people are lying in bed, half naked. It's also for,

Chris Gorham:

So the way that I describe it to people who've never heard of intimacy coordinators is everyone's familiar with stunt coordinators. So stunt coordinators are brought onto a set to keep actors physically safe. Intimacy coordinators are brought onto a set to keep actors emotionally safe.

Michael Jamin:

And this is relatively new thing. Maybe what, five or 10 years or something? Maybe less,

Chris Gorham:

Right? Yes. New. And we are pushing to make them required. But one of the hurdles before we can make them a requirement like a stunt coordinator is required. One of the hurdles is actually getting enough intimacy coordinators qualified, trained and qualified to do this

Michael Jamin:

Job. Are most of them, are they therapists, counselors? What's their training, do you think? No,

Chris Gorham:

I think a lot of them come from the acting court. Really? Really? Yeah. Yeah. Because

Michael Jamin:

You mentioned it's not just that. It's also like if you have two characters yelling at each other in a scene, no sex, they're just yelling at each other that an intimacy record will talk to you afterwards, right?

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. So here's a couple things that we did. I'd worked on a show where we had a scene, it was a sexual assault scene, but there were no clothes, there was no nudity and things stopped before things progressed to the point where we were physically exposed. But that kind of scene, you're very emotionally exposed, right? And this was my first time interviewing with an intimacy coordinator. I didn't really know what to expect. So there was a part of the conversation was, okay, for instance, it's written in the script that the other character is going to reach down and grab your groin. And I talked to the in music coordinator saying, I talked to the director and the director wants to see that. He said, are you comfortable with that? Here's what we have to protect you. We have a piece that's going to go between your pants and your underwear to protect your groin.

And so when she grabs you, that's all she's grabbing. It was like, okay, great. That's super helpful actually. Great. I've never had that before. And it seemed like that. And it's nice. It makes me feel more comfortable. Certainly makes her feel more comfortable. Who wants to do that? Nobody. But then after the physical parts of discussion, then the conversation shifted. And she said, another thing that I've done with a lot of actors who've done scenes this, I would recommend that you put together a self-care routine for the end of the day. I was like, well, what do you mean? Like it could be anything. Whatever is going to be comforting to you. Some people, you might make a put things together. So you can draw a bubble bath when you get home. You might put together a playlist of music that makes you feel good.

It might be pictures of your kids, could be whatever it is that is going to give comfort if you need it at the end of the day, because you never know what scenes like that might trigger. And that's the thing is you write scenes like this and it's necessary for the story, and you works as appropriate for the characters, but you never know what the actors as people, what their life experience has been. And they may have in their real life, been through an experience like that. And so then reenacting it can be very triggering. And it's the thing about acting when you're doing these emotional scenes, be it anger or big crying emotion, your body doesn't know you're pretending.

Michael Jamin:

Exactly.

Chris Gorham:

Exactly. So you mentally, well, this is pretend none of this is real. We're on a set crew numbers and friends, but your body doesn't know the difference. Once you're experiencing those emotions, you are experiencing those emotions and you never know what it's going to bring up. So that kind of care, emotional care, I thought is really great.

Michael Jamin:

And it's like, you'll do this just so people are aware. If you have a scene where you're screaming and yelling or sexually assaulting someone or whatever, and your adrenaline's pumping and whatever, your, not hormones, but cortisol. Cortisol is racing, whatever. All this stuff is going through your head and your body doesn't know, and you're doing the scene a dozen times and it's very hard. I feel it's must be hard to wash that out of your system.

Chris Gorham:

Can be. It can be. I mean, that's the thing. And it's different for everybody. I ended up, I was okay at the end of the day. I was exhausted, but I felt okay. But I was glad that I'd put some thought into, if I'm not feeling okay, here's what I'm going to do, it's going to help me feel better. And just having thought about it, I think just helped.

Michael Jamin:

No, I don't think I've ever worked with an intimacy coordinator because in comedy we don't really do a lot of that. But is it always a sexually charged? Is that what the line is? It's not just drama. There always has to be some kind of sexual element when they're brought in. Is that what it

Chris Gorham:

Is? That's certainly how it started. And I think now it's one of the things, it's still new. We're figuring out when it, certainly on the sexual stuff, I'm trying to think. It was interesting. There was a resolution. I think there was a resolution that's going to be coming up the convention. There's lots of conversation about intimacy coordinators. But there was some conversation that had never crossed my mind. But once I was talking to someone about it, I thought, yeah, you know what that makes a lot of sense is bringing in intimacy coordinators when you're physically with children. Physically with children. So for instance, you are playing a dad and you're working with kids and you're getting in bed and cuddling with the kids at bedtime, or you're putting your daughter on your lap to have, because they had a rough day and you're cuddling and you know what I mean? And you're having physical contact with kids to have an intimacy coordinator there just to make, because again, you don't know what people's experiences been to protect the kids so that there's a conversation and there's somebody there watching. And I thought, you know what? Smart, that's a great idea.

Michael Jamin:

That is a really smart idea. Because we don't know what these kids have been through. We don't know.

Chris Gorham:

And again, most actors, most people in the world are caring, kind, certainly empathetic. That's their whole

Michael Jamin:

Job. That's the job.

Chris Gorham:

But just like any other profession, some people need help. Some people don't always have the best intentions, and some people don't always behave well. And so it's important. So yeah, I thought that was just such a good idea.

Michael Jamin:

I totally agree. We also spoke about how you handle it when you are working with an actor who maybe isn't as professional or prepared as you are in the scene and what you do. I thought it was interesting what you had to say.

Chris Gorham:

Okay, so huge pet peeve. For me. It's like, no, it really bugs me when you're working with someone who hasn't bothered to learn their dialogue. So that's a huge No-no. But then sometimes you are working with an actor who just isn't great, who just for whatever reason isn't great. So my strategy for dealing with that is I just basically start acting to an X. I just don't, whatever they're giving me is just bad. What I know is that the editor is going to cut around the bad performance and they're going to use me. So it's even more important for me to stay completely engaged in the scene. And it's an extra level of acting challenge because then you're acting. It's like, I don't know. It's working on one of the superhero movies or something where you just start treating them like a tennis ball and you do the scene regardless because you can't let them affect your performance. Your performance

Michael Jamin:

Performance

Chris Gorham:

Has to be there.

Michael Jamin:

But let's say you were working with a casting director. I've worked with many, obviously many, and some cast directors, they'll read with you, and some of them are not great actors. No

Chris Gorham:

Read bad.

Michael Jamin:

And then you have, as an actor, you were trained to react and to what they give you, but how do you deal with it when they're not giving you

Chris Gorham:

Enough? It is. It's really hard. It's one of the nice things about this whole self take resolution is that's kind of taken out of it because you've got, hopefully you have someone working with you that's going to give you something. And if not, you can do multiple takes and send the best one. It was always one of the most difficult things about auditioning in the room is when you are, and I've heard so many horror stories, I've experienced just a couple, but when you're doing your audition and the person you're reading with is garbage, and so much of it becomes, it's not like how convincing their reading is. For me, it was always a rhythm thing. It was like they just aren't listening. And so the rhythm gets completely screwed up. And it's like,

Michael Jamin:

I always feel for actors when they have to do this, you have a crappy sketching director. It's like, well, what so hard.

Chris Gorham:

Or you look up and the casting director's like on the phone,

Michael Jamin:

That's even worse. Eating

Chris Gorham:

Lunch and not this.

Michael Jamin:

If you prepared a scene and in this moment you're going to be hot, you're going to be yelling, and the casting director is not giving you enough for you to get angry at. So you're saying you just go ahead and do it the way you prepared, even though if the scene, but then it looks like you're almost looks like you're crazy. You're getting angry and the cast director's at the lunch. It's just something you got to deal with

Chris Gorham:

Because that's the scene. And they're probably, even when you were in the office, usually they were recording it. Right. So all they're going to see is your side.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Chris Gorham:

So you have to do

Michael Jamin:

That's good advice.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I remember, this is years ago, we did a scene. We had this very famous actress. Actress. She was older, and we booked her and she came for the role and it was exciting to have her on set. She was very famous, but she should not be working. Her agent should not have booked her because I've

Chris Gorham:

Had an experience

Michael Jamin:

Like that too. Really? So maybe she had dementia. I felt terrible because she clearly had dementia or early signs of dementia, so she literally couldn't remember one line. So you'd feed her the line, and even still, she couldn't remember it half a second later. And I just felt she, I didn't know what to do. I was like, she's struggling here. She's probably feels very embarrassed, very lost. Very, why did her agent send her out for this book? Maybe because she needed the insurance. I don't know. But it was a horrible situation. I felt bad all around.

Chris Gorham:

I've worked with an actress who a very similar situation, and they went to cue cards and they just did it line by line.

Michael Jamin:

Even with QI wanted to bring in cue cards. The director said, I don't want to bring q. I was like, what are you doing, dude? This is awful. I lost that fight. I thought we needed cue cards. They just

Chris Gorham:

Shot her side line by line, and then I just did my side to an X.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. That's one of the realities of being on a TV show.

Chris Gorham:

Totally. And it's one of the, but also why it's so important to not to get, just to do, at the end of the day, be responsible for your performance and make sure that you're giving the best performance that you can give and you can't control the other stuff that's happening. And then as an actor, then trust your director and your camera operators and your review that they're going to take care of you as best that they can and your editor. But it doesn't behoove anyone to make you look like an idiot unless you're supposed to look like an idiot. Right,

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Chris Gorham:

Everyone wants to make the show. Great.

Michael Jamin:

Are your kids getting into acting or have they expressed any No. You said with relief. No, not in the arts at all.

Chris Gorham:

No, no, no, not at all.

Michael Jamin:

Your wife was an actor. I mean, I'm, yeah, I'm surprised that there's not that pull.

Chris Gorham:

Well, my oldest son is autistic. He finished high school and now he's got a part-time job like pharmacy down the street. He's doing well, and his younger brother is studying business, wants to go into real estate. Oh, good. It's like, okay.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, thank God.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. And then our youngest loves to sing, has a beautiful singing voice. But yeah, no, he isn't really interested

Michael Jamin:

Going

Chris Gorham:

Into the business, which is fine. We've never put any pressure on

Michael Jamin:

Them. Well, sure.

Chris Gorham:

And had they had a passion for it, we would be supportive, but it's just not, their hearts

Michael Jamin:

Taken them. It's funny. I'm sure they've come to set with you seen you do it. Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. They think it's boring. They're like, this is so boring.

Michael Jamin:

It is boring. There's a lot of boring on a set. I don't know if,

Chris Gorham:

Yeah, it's super boring. They've never watching things with me in it because it's weird to see your dad not being your dad. Also, another thing, thinking about it, having just talked about Stacy Linker a little bit ago, I think part of the reason they don't like going to set is because it set. I am the star and not them. So

Michael Jamin:

Oh, interesting.

Chris Gorham:

That doesn't feel great either. It's way better at home.

Michael Jamin:

What is it like for you though, when you're out in public? And fame to me is, so how do you experience fame when someone comes up to you and they think they know you and they want a piece of you? What does that do to you?

Chris Gorham:

Well, I've been really lucky, I feel like, because kind of been able to walk the line where I've experienced being famous enough to have the paparazzi jump out and want to take my picture and talk to me.

Michael Jamin:

That's a lot. That's a level of fame I don't think anybody would want to have,

Chris Gorham:

But never to the point where it really got in the way. It was just a few. There were some moments in my career where I was famous enough that the paparazzi knew who I was and would take my picture, but never famous enough that it really

Michael Jamin:

Bothered

Chris Gorham:

You, caused problems. Never famous enough where I needed security. Never famous enough where it got really inconvenient.

Michael Jamin:

But let's just say you're at a restaurant and someone wants to come up, they want to talk to you, they autographed, they want to meet you.

Chris Gorham:

Most of the time people get it. I'm usually out with my kids and my wife, so they understand if they're coming up and I'm with my wife and kids, that it's a little awkward for them to ask me to stop dinner with my family to talk pictures or take. So that doesn't really happen

Michael Jamin:

Now. Oh, that's good. I mean, Brad, I could see your family being like, oh God, we're trying to have a night. We're trying to be together.

Chris Gorham:

There's been moments like that, especially for the kids. Anelle it, it's always been fun. Early in my career, it was weird because we were on a show and we couldn't go to malls because kids would chase us around malls in the very beginning. But then as you get older, that happens less and less. And then it's just been, sometimes it's surprising. My kids forget for a while. We'll go a while without getting recognized at all. And then weirdly, in Chicago, weirdly, I think the last show that I was on must have lots of people watched it in Chicago. And so suddenly, anytime I'm in Chicago, I'm recognized all the time. And so It's like my kids remember. Oh, right. Dad's on tv.

Michael Jamin:

That's so

Chris Gorham:

Funny. Funny. When Ethan was starting high school was when a very popular show with the high school kids had just premiered. And that was actually really difficult for him. We've talked about it since. He didn't really reveal how hard it was for him, but last year we were talking about it and he was kind of opening up and said, yeah, no, it sucked. It wasn't great.

Michael Jamin:

Really?

Chris Gorham:

You were doing that show while I was starting high school and so everyone knew who I was and everyone

Michael Jamin:

Knew who all his friends and all the kids. Yeah. It's hard for a kid and it

Chris Gorham:

Was embarrassing.

Michael Jamin:

Yes, it was. They were embarrassed that you were their dad.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Really? It was super embarrassing. Yeah. Well, because of what that show, because of my character on the show for high school kids, just, it was a lot. I was physically quite exposed on that show and so yeah, it was a lot. It a lot.

Michael Jamin:

Oh wow. We did a show with these two guys link and these were big YouTubers and they were huge. And I hadn't heard of them. I didn't know them. And then remember we'd go for the meeting and one of them said to me, you wouldn't believe this, but I can't go to Disneyland without being swarmed. That was his crowd. He's like, I know you've never seen me before, but I can't go there without being swarmed.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's so funny. Yeah,

Chris Gorham:

It's wild. Yeah. That was,

Michael Jamin:

It's interesting that this, go ahead, please.

Chris Gorham:

No, no, no, no. It was just a dumb Disneyland story. Go ahead.

Michael Jamin:

No.

Chris Gorham:

Well, the dumb Disneyland story was, there was a period in my career where working on a certain show where we could not only go to Disneyland for free, but also were given the guide and the behind we were taking care of at Disneyland, like a celebrity, which was funny because it was so, we did it a couple times, but I think even just the second time we went to Disney Disneyland, that way, it's too much. Honestly. It sounds great, and it's great the first time to be able to skip all the lines, you know what I mean? But after that, it's like, oh, there's actually way less to do at Disneyland than you think when you don't have to wait in line for anything.

Michael Jamin:

That's so funny. You kind

Chris Gorham:

Of finish it all in four hours and then you're like, oh,

Michael Jamin:

Now what? Now what?

Chris Gorham:

Again?

Michael Jamin:

That's so funny. Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

I'm always curious, I am always curious about how people experience I'm around you guys and how you guys experience fame and what is it like that parasocial relationship where people think they know you and they don't. They just know this part of you.

Chris Gorham:

It's different for everybody.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I always feel like it must be like, am I giving you what? When someone comes up to you, is there that thought in your head? Where am I giving you what you wanted? You just met me. Am I giving you what you wanted? Because I don't know what you wanted and am I who you wanted me to be for five minutes? Oh, that's funny.

Chris Gorham:

I don't think about it that way. I've just tried to be kind to people just, I just try to be kind. Just be kind. That's all. That's really all I'm thinking about is just because, listen, it could be worse. It's not terrible for people to be happy to see you generally.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Chris Gorham:

That's not terrible. That's kind of nice. Can it be inconvenient? Sorry.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I saw a clip of Eve who played Jan Brady, right. And she was on the talk show. This clip was probably 30 years old or whatever, and someone in the audience said, can you just do it? Can you just say it? Can you say it right? And she's like, we knew what you wanted. We knew everyone knew. She wanted her to say, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha. And she was like, I'm not going to say it. I won't say it, and why not? And everyone was so disappointed, and I felt for her. I was like, because she doesn't want to be your performing monkey now. And that was when she was 10.

Chris Gorham:

Well, that's the thing too. It's like is a one you can be kind and say no.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Chris Gorham:

Right. Just being kind doesn't mean you're going to say yes to every request,

Michael Jamin:

But that sounds like something you've maybe had a long conversation with a therapist to come to that conversation. Really? Yeah. That's something I would struggle with. Someone would say, you know, could be kind still say, no, am I allowed to? But you're saying you came to this realization on your own.

Chris Gorham:

I dunno. I don't know. Listen, I do see a therapist, and so maybe I don't remember having a breakthrough about that specifically, but certainly walking things through with a therapist can only help. Also, I think being a dad helps with that because in parenting, so much of the job is saying no. And that can be really hard sometimes, certainly for some people, but it's an important part of the job.

Michael Jamin:

Talk about how important do you think it is, and for you to either, okay. As a writer, I think it's very important to spend at least some amount of time in therapy because if you don't know yourself, how could you possibly know another character? And I wonder if you feel the same way. Same thing about acting.

Chris Gorham:

Oh, I've never thought about it that way.

Michael Jamin:

Really?

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Yeah. No, I never thought about that way. But it certainly can be helpful. I mean, for the same reason. It just, it's spending that time thinking about, and sometimes it's taking that hour just thinking about the whys of things. You spend so much of your days reacting to everything and taking the time to go, okay, why did this lead to this? Why did I do that when this happened to me? And as a person, it's going to help you stay more regulated and be just healthier in life. But also, yeah, for sure. There's going to be moments when you're going to be able to understand a character brother, because you've maybe put some thought into why people do

Michael Jamin:

These things, why people do. Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

I been, one of the things I've started doing during the strike is working as a substitute teacher.

Michael Jamin:

Really? For one of the public schools nearby.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. Yeah. For elementary

Michael Jamin:

School, middle school. How hard is that? Wait for elementary school.

Chris Gorham:

Elementary school and middle school.

Michael Jamin:

And middle school. You won't have the balls to do high school, do you?

Chris Gorham:

School? Well, my kids at the high school, I've been banned from the high school. And also I think I'm too recognizable to be at the high school. It would be distracting. Whereas the middle school and the elementary school kids, they don't dunno anything.

Michael Jamin:

So what's that?

Chris Gorham:

What is that like? Well, it's been great actually. It's been great. And I think one of the things that you really see, or I really see is just, there's no such thing as a bad kid. There's just no such thing.

Michael Jamin:

So you see kids that are struggling in pain or whatever. Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

Listen, there's kids that act up. There's kids, but what is that? Right? They're begging for attention. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So what do you do?

Chris Gorham:

So it depends on the kid, but it's a great lesson that I think in talking about what we do and acting and writing, it's a great lesson to getting at why are characters behaving the way that they're behaving. In my career, I've played good guys and bad guys and everybody in between. And I'm often asked, how do you play this horrible human being? It's like, well, part of the job is figuring out why he's doing what he's doing, because it makes sense to him, either mentally or emotionally. He's doing what feels right for him in that moment. And objectively, we're looking at,

Michael Jamin:

Do you ask for help with that, with the director or the actor? If you're struggling with that, why am I such a dick in this scene?

Chris Gorham:

Sometimes? Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's an important conversation if it doesn't make sense, because also sometimes, frankly, this script hasn't got you there, or I can't see it. It's like, this doesn't feel justified. Can you help me connect the dots? So

Michael Jamin:

Funny, just as I was saying that we ran this show with Mark Marin, the comedian, and the show was based on his life. And so we did this one, we wrote this one scene where he's giving a speech, he's getting out of rehab, and he's giving his goodbye speech or whatever. And the speech that we wrote for him was so ungracious, he was being a real jerk. It was like, goodbye, you're all good luck. See you here in three weeks because everyone, you're all going to relapse. He was such a jerk. And right before we're shooting it, mark comes up to me, he goes, I don't understand why I'm such a dick in this scene. And I'm like, uhoh, how do I break this to you based on your life, mark? And I go,

Chris Gorham:

It's

Michael Jamin:

Because Mark, sometimes you can be a dick. And I'm like, oh, here we go. He's going to punch me in the face. He's going to punch me. And he just looks at me. He goes, okay, got it. That's all he needed.

Chris Gorham:

I see it now.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

Yeah. It was. Yeah. It's been really, yeah. One of the things that coming up in it school, you go through, you learn all these different techniques, the miser techniques, method acting is STR U Hagan and all this stuff. And so much of it, it's like watch people, watch people listen to people, listen to how different people talk, listen to how people talk about the same thing, or watch how people move. And so it's been one of the just kind of unexpected blessings about being around these kids just being exposed to an entirely different group of little humans who are so, they have fewer masks on than adults. So it just, it's really easy, especially as a dad coming in and having been around, I feel like that's an advantage for me. But just to see, it's like, oh, I see what's happening here. Oh, I see what's going on there. Oh, that's so cool.

Michael Jamin:

It's so fun. I can see the same thing as a writer. If I'm at a coffee shop, when you're watching two people, often people are not, if they're sitting at the same table, they're not having a conversation. They're just taking turns talking. Which is different. Which is different, right? Yes,

Chris Gorham:

Yes. So different. So different. It's been, yeah, it's like when you see people just, they're not listening. They're just waiting for their

Michael Jamin:

Turn. Yeah, they're waiting for their turn. Right. That's just so fun about the job. Wow. Yeah. Chris, we had a long talk and don't think, I think maybe we bumped on, we touched on only a couple things. We talked from last time, and yet this is all new terrain. And you, I'm so

Chris Gorham:

Glad.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Chris Gorham:

I mean, well, you're easy to talk to my friend.

Michael Jamin:

Well, you're a fantastic guest. I mean, I don't know. I just feel like I learned, I learned so much. I rebranded the podcast basically was because I wanted to talk to more people. It was originally, it was about screenwriting, but I really wanted to talk to artists, basically people whose work I admire, and you for sure are one of them. And just about how they, I don't know. What's it like to be an artist and how to approach your work. I know you take it so seriously and I have so much admiration for that

Chris Gorham:

Man. It's the greatest job in the world, and it's a job that it matters.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it matters. I've said that and people, I made a post about that. And I don't know people, I don't know if it was well received, because it doesn't matter. But it does matter.

Chris Gorham:

No, it really, storytelling is one of just the founding pillars of our society and of community. Storytelling is so important. It is how we see ourselves. It's how we learn how to behave and how we learn about other people, because it's how we get outside of our own lived experience and can experience the lived experience of others. It's vital.

Michael Jamin:

And stories connect us. And now more than ever in this country, we need something that connects us. We're so divided. I dunno.

Chris Gorham:

It's one of those things that helps us feel less alone,

Michael Jamin:

Feels less, exactly. Feel.