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SPECIAL OFFER | As a listener of the show, you can get 25% off Deb Gregory's new book, Spiritual Wayfinding, by using the code IVPOD25 at checkout at ivpress.com. We hope you enjoy this season!

What holds us when life becomes heavy? In this second conversation, Deb Gregory and spiritual director Becky Eldredge explore how hope is sustained in the seasons when our interior movements go quiet. Ignatian spirituality teaches that discernment is never a solo practice — it is communal, embodied, and grounded in the ways God meets us through others.

Becky reflects on the reality of dark seasons: times when prayer feels thin, energy disappears, and the nervous system contracts under the weight of grief, fear, or exhaustion. In these moments, hope isn’t something we generate. It’s something we lean on. Something that is held for us. Something that comes through the people, practices, and postures that keep us tethered to God when we cannot feel that tether ourselves.

This is the heart of the scaffold of hope — the steadying structures that support us until interior movements return. Becky names the simple, whole‑person practices that help rebuild hope: breath prayer when words are unavailable, stepping outside to engage the senses, tracing even the smallest graces through the examen, and allowing trusted companions to accompany us without rushing us toward resolution.

Hope becomes a shared practice, not an individual achievement. It shows up in the body as steadiness, breath, presence, and the quiet assurance that we are not alone. And in Ignatian discernment, hope is one of the most reliable markers of God’s movement — even, and especially, in the dark.

Themes

• Communal Hope — how others hold hope when we cannot
• Scaffolding Practices — embodied rituals that steady us in dark seasons
• Ignatian Accompaniment — discernment as a shared, relational practice
• Desolation & Consolation — navigating spiritual darkness with honesty
• Hope as Gift — a theological virtue, not optimism
• Whole‑Person Spirituality — tending the nervous system, emotions, and body in prayer

Practices

• Breath prayer in seasons without words
• Sensory grounding outdoors
• Naming small graces in difficult days
• The examen as a way of tracing God’s presence in darkness
• Allowing community to hold hope on our behalf
• Hand‑over‑heart prayer for God’s nearness

Favorite Lines

“Sometimes hope is held for us until we can hold it again.” “We need a scaffold of hope in the seasons when our interior movements go quiet.”

Resources

Becky’s Books:

Encounter Grace: Moments of Hope, Joy, and Peace

The Inner Chapel: Embracing the Promises of God 

Busy Lives & Restless Souls: How Prayer Can Help You Find the Missing Peace in Your Life

Deb’s Book:

Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

Use Code IVPOD25 for 25% off

Follow Becky

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/beldredge98

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beldredge98/

My website: http://beckyeldredge.com 

Ignatian Ministries- the non-profit Becky founded: https://ignatianministries.org/

Where to Find Deb

Flourish Spiritual Direction

Substack

IG or Facebook

Media Used in this Episode:

Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)

Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code: LUJWGE5LY2FBKNAT

“In Peaceful Defiance” — licensed via Soundstripe

Closing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

What does discernment have to do with the body? In this conversation, Deb Gregory and spiritual director Becky Eldredge explore the affective and holistic wisdom of Ignatian spirituality — a tradition where the whole person prays, listens, and discerns.

Becky describes how interior movements show up not just in our thoughts but in our emotions, our breath, our posture, and the subtle shifts in energy that surface when we face a decision. Ignatian discernment invites us to pay attention to these movements as real spiritual data: signs of what draws us toward God and what pulls us away.

Favorite lines:

We throw hope around like confetti.

Hope has a name, and his name is Jesus.

Following this thread, Deb and Becky take a deep look at hope as a theological virtue — a God‑given orientation of the heart and a trusted fruit of the Spirit in discernment. Hope isn’t optimism or positivity; it’s the interior movement that buoys us, widens our perspective, and helps us recognize where God is drawing us forward.

Themes

Embodied Discernment — how the body participates in prayer and decision‑making

Interior Movements — noticing emotional, cognitive, and somatic shifts

Ignatian Spirituality — whole‑person wisdom for everyday life

Cura Personalis — care for the whole person in spiritual direction

Consolation & Desolation — affective markers that guide discernment

Hope as a Theological Virtue — more than optimism; a God‑given orientation of the heart

Affective Discernment — reading the signals of breath, posture, and energy

Spiritual Accompaniment — the ministry of noticing what moves within

Resources

Becky’s Books:

Encounter Grace: Moments of Hope, Joy, and Peace

The Inner Chapel: Embracing the Promises of God 

Busy Lives & Restless Souls: How Prayer Can Help You Find the Missing Peace in Your Life

Deb’s Book:

Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

Use Code IVPOD25 for 25% off

Follow Becky

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/beldredge98

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beldredge98/

My website: http://beckyeldredge.com 

Ignatian Ministries- the non-profit Becky founded: https://ignatianministries.org/

Where to Find Deb

Flourish Spiritual Direction

Substack

IG or Facebook

Media Used in this Episode:

Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)

Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code: LUJWGE5LY2FBKNAT

Music by Viacheslav Starostin from Pixabay

Closing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

Why I wanted to talk with Noel

Noel is both an Old Testament scholar and a spiritual director — two threads that run through my own story. My early academic path was aimed toward becoming an Old Testament scholar, but my vocation ultimately led me into spiritual direction. Even so, my love for the Hebrew Bible has never faded. Talking with Noel gave me the chance to explore both the scholarly depth and the spiritual formation that emerge in the wilderness stories of Scripture.

Key Themes we Discussed (and Wrestled With)

naming our interior landscape

encountering God in desolation and disorientation

biblical wilderness as a formative space

varied terrains of wilderness in the Old Testament

the Suscipe: An Ignatian prayer of trust

What stuck with me

Wilderness is not a single metaphor. It’s a range of terrains — and each one can become a place of encounter.

A question for reflection

Where do you notice wilderness in your own interior landscape, and what stands out as you name it?

The Suscipe Prayer of St Ignatius

Take, Lord, and receive all of my independence,

Memory, understanding, and my entire will

—all of my resources and possessions.

Everything is yours. I entrust all of it to your care.

Only inflame my soul with your love and grace.

That is enough for me.

(Translated by Deborah Gregory, Spiritual Wayfinding, pg 75)

About Noel’s book

God in the Desert: A Spiritual Theology of Wilderness in the Old Testament traces how God meets people in barren, exposed, or disorienting places — and how those ancient encounters can help us understand the landscapes within our own lives.

Where to find Dr. Noel Forlini Burt

Book: God in the Desert: A Spiritual Theology of Wilderness in the Old Testament

Substack: noelforliniburt.substack.com

Instagram: @noelforliniburt

Where to Find Deb

Flourish Spiritual Direction

Substack

IG or Facebook

Music:

Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)

Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code: LUJWGE5LY2FBKNAT

Closing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

I’ll admit it—I was a bit nervous to talk about heaven with Brian Zahnd. Perhaps like you, I carry baggage from childhood images of gold streets and clouds, and I wasn’t sure where this conversation would go. But his stories of walking long long-distance pilgrimages like the Camino de Santiago opened such a grounded way of talking about heaven, embodiment, and the unseen world we move through every day. I really loved this conversation!

What we get into

Brian has walked multiple pilgrimages—40 miles, 160 miles, and the full 500-mile Camino de Santiago twice. Those long walks have shaped his sense of identity and the stripping-away that happens when life is reduced to walking, eating, sleeping, and repeat.

Brain shares the adventures of crossing the Pyrenees, staying in the monastery at Roncesvalles, and watching people who don’t consider themselves religious still feel drawn into the shared rituals of the Camino. He noted that at some point, his perspective shifted from finally getting a vacation to an overhaul of vocation.

“Eventually it doesn’t feel like a holiday. It feels like, I am a pilgrim now. My life has been reduced to blessed simplicity.”

We also explore his new book Unseen Existences: Of Heaven, Earth, and the Divine Mystery in All Things and why so many of us inherited narrow or sentimental ideas of heaven. Brian talks about heaven in a way that isn’t wispy and frail, but grounded and gritty.

Why this conversation matters

If you’ve ever felt allergic to heaven-talk, this episode might be a relief. Brian challenges the modern assumption that only what we can measure is real, without dismissing science or reason. Instead, he invites us to recover an older Christian intuition: that the visible and invisible co-exist, and that our own lived experience—our senses, our movement, our curiosity—can help us glimpse the mysterious existence of heaven all around us.

What made me laugh

Two pastors walked together for days before admitting they were pastors—only on the Camino!

Tune in if you enjoy conversations about:

• the Camino de Santiago
• embodied spirituality
• heaven without sentimentality
• the unseen world in Christian (mystic) imagination
• pilgrimage and spiritual transformation
• Buen Camino!

Where to Find Brian

• Website: https://brianzahnd.com
• Substack: https://brianzahnd.substack.com
• Twitter / X: https://twitter.com/BrianZahnd
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brianzahnd
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrianZahndAuthor (facebook.com in Bing)
• YouTube (Word of Life Church): https://www.youtube.com/c/WordofLifeChurch

Where to Find Deb

• Flourish Spiritual Direction
• Substack
• IG or Facebook

Thanks to InterVarsity Press for generously offering 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom. Use Code IVPOD25 at https://www.ivpress.com/spiritual-wayfinding

Music:

Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)

Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code: LUJWGE5LY2FBKNAT

Closing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

Overview

Discover how forest bathing—an intentional immersion in nature—can deepen your spiritual life and boost your physical health. In this episode, Kim Van Natta, a spiritual director and certified forest therapy guide, shares insights on engaging all your senses outdoors to experience divine connection.

Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

Main topics:

• The essence of forest bathing and its physical health benefits, including immune boosting through phytocides
• The spiritual significance of engaging with creation as a means of connecting with God
• Practical guidance on how to participate in a forest bathing walk and incorporate it into your spiritual practice
• The biblical basis for nature as a pathway to divine encounter, supported by scripture references
• The emergence of Wild Church as a community of outdoor believers rediscovering sacred space in creation

In this episode:

• How trees release healing chemicals that support immune function and reduce stress
• The history and development of shinrin yoku in Japan and its global adoption
• The relationship between embodiment, senses, and spiritual awareness
• How to create your own forest bathing experience, regardless of location or season
• The role of silence, shared presence, and sensory invitations in deepening spiritual mindfulness

Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction to forest bathing and its health benefits

02:00 - The physical and spiritual 'rest' offered by engaging with nature

03:30 - Exploring the biblical and scientific foundations of nature as divine gift

05:00 - The historical origins of forest bathing in Japan and its global spread

07:00 - Practical steps for doing a forest bathing walk and sensory engagement

10:00 - How biblical scriptures illuminate our connection to creation and God

13:30 - The role of Wild Church and outdoor communities in spiritual renewal

16:00 - The scientific evidence of phytocides' effects on immune health

18:00 - Embodiment and sensory awareness as pathways to divine presence

20:00 - How to start your own practice of forest bathing today

42:00 - Guided natural mindfulness practice: Experience the Pleasure of Presence

Resources & Links:

Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

Wild Church Network

Church of the Wild by Victoria Louris

Rewilding with Mary DeYoung

Association of Nature and Forest Therapy

Connect with Kim Van Natta: Website

Connect with Deb Gregory:

• Flourish Contemplative Center
• Substack
• Instagram / Facebook

May this episode inspire you to slow down, open your senses, and experience God's presence in the sacred space of creation.

Overview

Pastor and spiritual director Rich Johnson joins Deb Gregory for a conversation at the intersection of contemplation and action — a place often misunderstood, oversimplified, or treated as two separate paths. Drawing on Howard Thurman, African American approaches to spiritual formation, pietistic roots, and his experience leading a multiracial, justice‑oriented congregation, Rich explores how slowing down, listening deeply, and grounding ourselves in the divine voice becomes the wellspring for courageous, sustained action.

Rich shares stories from his journey — from Morehouse College to planting Sanctuary Church — and invites us into a rhythm of discernment that harmonizes active love and deep reflection.

Rich Johnson is the founding pastor of Sanctuary Columbus Church, a multiracial, justice‑oriented, contemplative Christian community. He is a spiritual director and the Director of the Weborg Center for Spiritual Direction at North Park Seminary. He is a lover of coffee, long walks, and a student of Howard Thurman’s wisdom on the inner life and social action.

Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

KEY THEMES:

Contemplation as Paying Attention

Rich defines contemplation as noticing where God is at work — in memory, in the body, in habits, in resistance, and in desire. It’s not passive. It’s an active inward movement that naturally leads outward into relationship and action.

Action Emerging from the Inner Voice

Rich shares how he began to burn out when he was “listening to every voice around me instead of the voice within.” Returning to the inner voice of God reshaped his leadership, his discernment, and his community’s justice work.

 Belovedness as Identity and Communion

Drawing on Henri Nouwen’s Life of the Beloved, Rich reflects on belovedness as the core of human identity — not just for the self, but for the community. Belovedness becomes the ground for how we show up, act, and extend ourselves to others.

Pietism: Head and Heart Together

Rich describes his Swedish‑Lutheran pietistic roots, where faith is not performative or rigid but relational and lived. Two guiding questions shape this tradition: Where is it written? How goes your walk with what you read?

Communal Discernment

Rich shares how Sanctuary Church practices discernment together — beginning with silence, naming interior movements, listening for the Spirit, and asking: What does the Lord require of us? This practice guides their justice work, including recent engagement with prison reform.

The Missing Practice of Lament

Rich names what many feel but rarely articulate: lament is missing from most spiritual‑discipline handbooks. In his community, lament is encouraged — shouting, grieving, protesting, naming what hurts. Lament becomes a way of gathering in grief and attuning to God’s heart.

Coffee as Contemplative Practice

Rich shares his morning ritual: a sensory grounding practice using the 5‑4‑3‑2‑1 method while holding a warm cup of coffee. It’s a way of awakening the senses to God before the day begins to pull them apart.

Timestamps:

00:00 - Welcome and introduction to Rich Johnson’s journey of justice and contemplation

02:08 - The relationship between slowing down, attention, and God's activity in community

03:28 - How body synchronization and extended mind theory support communal discernment

05:23 - Grounding embodied discernment through sensory awareness and simple practices

09:41 - Defining contemplation and action: paying attention to where God is at work

11:47 - The necessity of integrating contemplation with active love, rooted in belovedness

14:10 - Exploring pietistic spirituality: connecting head, heart, and action

18:05 - Practical discernment: slowing down to navigate life’s decisions

20:40 - The power of silence and communal listening in strategic planning

24:37 - Engaging contemplative practices in social justice movements

27:23 - The spiritual discipline of lament and collective grief

29:04 - Discernment on justice issues: proximity, listening, and integrity

33:30 - The importance of patience, clarity, and listening in communal action

36:13 - Howard Thurman’s legacy, sacred spaces, and cultural expression in spirituality

40:48 - Transition from burnout to renewal: embodied listening as a form of healing

43:37 - What's next: integrating contemplative spirituality into training and community life

45:02 - Practicing silence and sensory awareness in monastery and everyday settings

50:55 - Recognizing divine life amid challenges: noticing the evergreen in grayness

52:44 - The call to follow the life within and around us—embodying hope and justice

Resources & Links:

Howard Thurman: Essential Writings

Henry Nouwen: Life of the Beloved

Howard Thurman House — Visiting the sacred space

Gethsemane Monastery in Kentucky, exploring silence, community, and contemplative practice

Where to Find Rich Johnson:

Rich Johnson on Instagram

Sanctuary Church Columbus

Northern Seminary - Weborg Center

In this episode, Deb Gregory speaks with theologian, photographer, and global labyrinth facilitator Dr. Jill Geoffrion, whose scholarship and ministry at Chartres Cathedral have shaped contemporary understanding of the labyrinth as a path of prayer. Jill’s work through Faith, Hope, and Love Global Ministries extends far beyond France, bringing labyrinth installations and healing practices to communities experiencing violence, displacement, and collective trauma.

The conversation explores the sensory wisdom of embodied practice, the medieval Easter traditions of Chartres, the historical development of labyrinths in Christian contexts, and the surprising ways labyrinths create safe spaces for healing in places of suffering.

Historical Background

Labyrinths appear in Christian tradition as early as the fourth century, beginning with a repurposed Roman mosaic placed at the doorway of a North African cathedral in 324. Jill notes, “Anything that shows up in a cathedral has been around because it doesn’t get to the cathedral first.” By the ninth century, labyrinths appear in manuscripts; by the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, they are installed on cathedral floors in Italy and France, culminating in the large walkable labyrinth at Chartres Cathedral around 1220.

Jill clarifies a common misconception: medieval pilgrims did not use labyrinths as substitutes for traveling to Jerusalem. “The first time we even hear of such an idea was in the eighteenth or nineteenth century,” she explains. Instead, labyrinths served primarily as liturgical tools for the cathedral community.

Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

In this episode:

• Jill's journey from scholarship to global healing initiatives with labyrinth installations
• The distinction between labyrinths and mazes, and why turning back on the path matters physically and psychologically
• How labyrinths serve as containers for community and individual pilgrimage, especially in regions of trauma
• The significance of the Chartres Cathedral labyrinth as a centuries-old testament to prayer, pilgrimage, and liturgical joy
• Practical tips for approaching a labyrinth intentionally, whether walking physically, tracing patterns, or imagining the path
• The profound connection between physical movement, sensory engagement, and spiritual/emotional healing
• The surprising ways labyrinths have facilitated physical recovery—like Deb’s experience walking the labyrinth with a broken ankle
• How the rhythms of play, spontaneity, and openness transform our experience of sacred practice
• Embracing the mystery: why the spiritual and physical impact of labyrinths remains partly beyond our understanding

Resources & Links:

• Faith Hope and Love Global Ministries — Jill’s nonprofit for healing through labyrinths
• Labyrinth Locator — Discover labyrinths worldwide and resources for practice
• Lauren Artress and Veriditas — Pioneers of labyrinth revitalization and training
• Labyrinth Patterns and Resources — Free downloadable labyrinth designs
• Book: "Spiritual Wayfinding" by Deb Gregory — Guide to embodied spiritual practices and labyrinths
• Research on Restorative Play with Matt Bloom

Connect with Jill Jeffrion:

• LinkedIn
• Personal Website

Final Reflection:

Whether walking, tracing, or imagining, the labyrinth invites us into a sacred dance of opening, surrender, and discovery. Embrace the mystery, linger in stillness, and carry the peace of the journey into your daily life. Remember, each turn reflects a step closer to ourselves and to the divine shadows and light within.

Music:

Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)

Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code: LUJWGE5LY2FBKNAT

Closing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

Autistic pastor and spiritual director Josh Davis takes us inside the sensory‑rich, embodied wisdom of neurodivergent spirituality. He shares how his body processes emotional and sensory spikes, how stimming helps him settle, and why music has become his “heart language”—a place to regulate and commune with God without words.

We explore the surge of surprise, the role of embodied prayer, and the spiritual depth that emerges when we honor the body’s way of knowing.

Featuring selections from Josh’s own music throughout the episode.

In this episode:

• How surprise impacts emotional regulation and spiritual transformation, guided by research from “surpriseologists” Tania Luna and Leanne Renninger
• The significance of the surprise regulation protocol: freeze, find, shift, and share
• Josh’s embodied practices for connecting with God through sunlight, blessing, and sensory grounding
• The nuances of masking versus unmasking, and the spiritual journey of owning neurodivergent traits
• The sacred role of music as a heart language that fosters divine communion
• Challenges and creative solutions for neurodivergent believers in church environments
• The importance of cultivating spaces of authentic belonging and vulnerability
• How imagination works differently in neurodivergence, including insights on aphantasia and alternative pathways to divine encounter
• Practical ways leaders and spiritual directors can validate diverse pathways to God and nurture neurodivergent gifts
• A guided reflection inspired by Psalm 34 to taste, see, hear, smell, and touch the goodness of God

Timestamps:

(00:00) The power of surprise and its role in emotional and spiritual awakening

(02:37) The surprise regulation protocol: freeze, find, shift, share

(07:12) Embodied spiritual practices for regulation and connection

(10:16) Understanding neurodivergence as creative diversity

(17:12) How surprise amplifies emotions and how to cultivate grace

(22:14) Neurodivergent experiences of church, worship, and belonging

(28:04) The gifts of neurodivergent believers: diversity as divine design

(30:42) The spiritual richness of the body and movement in Scripture and practice

(35:24) The unmasking process: vulnerability, shame, and spiritual freedom

(46:46) Imagining with and without visualization: a guide for spiritual growth

(58:11) A simple embodied meditation to taste and see God’s goodness

Resources & Links:

• Neurodivergent Faith Podcast
• Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom by Deborah Gregory
• Psalm 34 Scripture
• Surprise by Tanya Luna & Leanne Renniger

Connect with Josh Davis:

• Podcast: Neurodivergent Faith Podcast
• YouTube: Just Josh Davis (Autistic Pastor)  
• Facebook - Josh Davis
• Instagram -@autisticpastor
• Music – Just Josh Davis on Bandcamp

Extended Closing Meditation:

Join Josh in this embodied reflection: pause, notice one sensory experience that signals God's goodness, and breathe in divine blessing. Feel free to adapt practices for your own body, soul, and context—trusting that transformation often begins in the surprise of simply showing up as ourselves.

Music:

Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions

Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

Featured Songs by Josh Davis: What If, Desire

Today’s guest is Br. Guy Consolmagno, SJ—astronomer, Jesuit brother, and former Director of the Vatican Observatory. Br. Guy has spent his life studying meteorites, galaxies, and the deep structure of the cosmos, all while living a profoundly grounded Ignatian spirituality. His work invites us to see scientific curiosity not as a threat to faith, but as one of its most natural expressions.

In this conversation, we explore how wonder becomes a spiritual practice, how humility is woven into the fabric of the universe, and why the vastness of space can actually draw us closer to a God who delights in creation. Br. Guy shares stories from his decades of research, his unexpected path to the Jesuits, and the surprising ways science can deepen our prayer.

Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

In This Episode

• Why wonder is essential to both science and spiritual life
• How Ignatian spirituality shapes the way we explore the cosmos
• What meteorites teach us about time, humility, and God’s creativity
• Why the universe’s vastness doesn’t diminish us—it situates us
• How curiosity can become a form of prayer
• The role of joy, play, and delight in scientific discovery
• What it means to trust a God who is both intimate and unimaginably expansive

Trail Marker: The Spiritual Gift of Wonder

Midway through the episode, we pause to reflect on awe as a spiritual posture. Br. Guy describes awe and wonder not as a fleeting emotions but as a way of being awake to God’s presence in the world. Wonder slows us down,  opens us up, and reminds us that we are creatures—finite but infinitely loved.

He reminds us that *the universe is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be entered.* That shift—from control to curiosity—changes how we pray, how we learn, and how we live.

Timecodes:

• 0:53–4:34 Brother Guy introduces walking prayer, embodiment, and finding God in physical creation
• 5:15–8:19 Pain, the ankle injury, and how suffering deepens gratitude and awareness
• 10:51–15:07 Awe, science, adventure, and why he joined the Jesuits
• 18:20–24:31 Finding God in all things, the vastness of the universe, and God’s attention
• 27:47–33:50 Beauty, acatamiento, awe vs. fear, and being overwhelmed in a good way
• 34:30–37:55 Justice, mercy, the poor, Sabbath, and why rest matters
• 41:08–44:07 The moon practice as a simple spiritual exercise
• 44:11–45:01 Closing reflections and final blessing

Resources Mentioned

• Jesuit Guide to the Stars (Loyola Press)
• Vatican Observatory
• Specola Vaticana
• Vatican Observatory Foundation
• God’s Grandeur: A poem by Gerard Manley Hopkins, SJ (Read by Jonathan Roumie)
• Connect with Deb: Flourish Spiritual Direction | Substack | Facebook | Instagram
• Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

Soundtrack Credits

Opening Music: “Palms Down” — Blue Dot Sessions

Closing Song: “Roots” — Ryvoli

Today’s guest is Lacy Finn Borgo—spiritual director, Renovaré faculty member, and longtime companion to children and families at Haven House, a transitional housing community in Colorado. Lacy is also the author of Spiritual Conversations with Children and Life with God for Children, books that have helped many of us reimagine children not as empty vessels to be filled, but as natural contemplatives who can lead us deeper into the heart of God.

In this episode, we explore how children pray with their whole bodies, how play becomes a doorway into God’s presence, and how adults can learn to listen with humility and curiosity. Lacy shares stories from her work with children navigating trauma, her research on projection and imagination, and the surprising ways children model freedom, resilience, and unselfconscious connection with God.

In This Episode

• How children naturally engage God through play, imagination, and embodied movement
• Why adults often over-teach and under-listen
• The role of projection in helping children express their inner world
• How walking side-by-side opens deeper conversations
• Embodied practices that help children (and adults) regulate anxiety
• What children teach us about failure, freedom, and spiritual courage

Trail Marker: Why Poohsticks Works

Midway through the episode, we pause to explore the Pooh Thought-Sticks meditation—a practice Lacy and I reference early on. We look at why this simple act of naming a thought, choosing a stick, and releasing it into moving water helps the nervous system shift from defensiveness to openness. Rather than erasing or fighting difficult thoughts, Poohsticks teaches us to acknowledge them, accept them, and entrust them to God’s care.

You can download the full Pooh Thought-sticks walk from Spiritual Wayfinding here: Download the Poohsticks Walk → LINK

Resources Mentioned

• Spiritual Conversations with Children — Lacy Finn Borgo
• Life with God for Children — Lacy Finn Borgo
• Spiritual Wayfinding — Deb Gregory
• Connect with Lacy: Good Dirt Ministries | Substack | Facebook | Instagram
• Connect with Deb: Flourish Spiritual Direction | Substack | Facebook | Instagram

Soundtrack Credits:

Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions

Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

In this episode, Deb Gregory talks with Chris Hoklotubbe and Danny Zacharias about Indigenous Christian wisdom and the role of land in shaping faith, community, and Scripture. We explore embodied practices of gratitude and reciprocity, Turtle Island hermeneutics, and the ways reconnecting with the land transforms how we read the Bible and live well.

Key insights include:

• The importance of land-based spiritual practices rooted in Indigenous stories like Sky Woman and Turtle Island.
• The significance of the circle dance as a metaphor for community interpretation of scripture and life with God.
• How biblical stories of creation and covenant invite us into a relational view of land, moving beyond exploitation.
• Disrupting doctrines like the Doctrine of Discovery with asset-based Indigenous theologies recognizing God’s presence everywhere.
• Practical embodied practices: slowing down, saying thank you, touching trees, and honoring the land as a spiritual act of gratitude.
• The role of gratitude and recognition in fostering belonging, empathy, and a sacred interconnectedness.
• The integration of Indigenous wisdom into Christian spirituality as a way to live well with all our relations.

Timestamps:

00:00 - Welcome and introduction to guests and themes of land, community, and spirituality

02:09 - The embodied nature of land connection and its scientific backing

04:12 - Grounding in mountains, plains, and ocean—land as a space for prayer and presence

05:33 - Indigenous stories of Sky Woman, Turtle Island, and the land as a reciprocal gift

10:47 - The circle dance as a metaphor for interpretive community and scriptural engagement

16:42 - Co-authoring "Reading the Bible on Turtle Island" and the journey of cultural reclamation

20:23 - The meaning of the book's title and the land as a story of gratitude and interconnectedness

23:21 - Turtle Island hermeneutics: engagement with creation and Scripture as a relational act

25:29 - Challenging the Genesis 3 narrative with asset-based theology grounded in goodness

27:40 - Disrupting the Doctrine of Discovery with indigenous perspectives of land as God's gift

32:03 - The garden as a space of covenantal relationship and stewardship

35:13 - Embodied practices: gratitude, slowing down, and caring for trees and land

39:48 - Invitation for listeners to adopt land-based mindfulness and gratitude practices

43:56 - How land and nature deepen our relationship with God and the sacred story

45:50 - Concluding reflections and call to ongoing dialogue and action

Resources & Links:

Reading the Bible on Turtle Island (book)

NAIITS - North American Institute for Indigenous Theological Studies

Connect with Deb Gregory: Instagram | Flourish Spiritual Direction Website

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This episode invites us all to slow, listen, and honor the sacred relationships that sustain life. May we approach land and each other with gratitude, humility, and a spirit of reciprocity, embodying the deep wisdom that abounds in creation and Scripture alike.

Soundtrack Credits:

Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions

Documentary Nature Music by Viacheslav Starostin

Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

In today’s episode, Deb Gregory is joined by Courtney Ellis to explore the deep connections between nature, our bodies, and our spiritual journeys. Through mindful birding practices and embracing the liminal spaces of change, they reveal how tending to the natural world can help us find peace, resilience, and a sense of divine presence amid life’s transitions.

In this episode:

· Courtney’s personal experience with birding as a spiritual practice during a health and grief journey

· The sensory richness of birding and its embodied connection to prayer and presence

· The metaphor of rising above a narrow focus to panoramic vision for emotional and spiritual health

· How curiosity and receptivity open us to divine grace in nature and in our lives

· The significance of liminal and ‘thin’ spaces where transformation and renewal happen

· Practical ways to cultivate stillness, attention, and wonder during seasons of uncertainty

· The importance of embracing one’s unique interests as pathways to God's delight and presence

· Insights from Courtney’s books Looking Up and Weathering Change on navigating grief and change through the natural world

Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction: Navigating the spiritual life with embodied wisdom

00:17 - Partnership with InterVarsity Press and Courtney’s new books

01:12 - Exploring the spiritual practice of birding and nature connection

01:49 - Courtney’s identity and passions: birds, books, and faith

02:47 - The significance of loving what you love in spiritual formation

03:06 - Bird walk as mindfulness: letting the birds minister to us

03:42 - How health challenges led Courtney outdoors for renewal

04:54 - How birding helps us become aware of God's presence

05:18 - The stillness of listening and paying attention in prayer

06:06 - Using multiple senses to deepen engagement with nature

06:40 - The gentle art of waiting, receiving, and centering through birding

08:18 - The calming effects of being outdoors and observing birds

09:09 - Faith as curiosity, wonder, and receptivity like birding

09:34 - Letting go of trying to force faith and delighting in God’s gifts

10:28 - The role of joy and delight in discipleship & spiritual growth

11:00 - Embracing special interests as sacred pathways to God

12:23 - Integrating passions like birding into spiritual practices

13:39 - Courtney’s book Looking Up on grief and natural world as balm

14:43 - Personal grief journey during her grandfather’s passing

16:03 - Scientific evidence of nature’s healing power in grief and depression

17:00 - How awe walks foster humility and wonder

17:48 - The importance of perspective and humility in seasons of change

19:02 - The science behind panoramic vision and stress reduction during birdwatching

20:07 - Nature’s attentional resets and echoes of divine renewal

21:32 - Courtney’s new book Weathering Change on the lessons of nature for navigating transformation

22:13 - How change impacts the body, cognition, and emotion

23:02 - Recognizing that both good and difficult changes wear us out

24:20 - Learning from animals’ acceptance of change and adaptation

25:46 - Cultivating curiosity and gentle engagement with change

26:38 - The liminal space as a ‘thin place’ of divine meeting and transformation

27:32 - Biblical stories of transition: Hagar, Abram, and the wilderness

29:02 - A story of decomposition and the patience of natural processes

30:34 - Practical embodied practice: Lent birding challenge

31:06 - The power of a quiet 10-minute outdoor or window sit for spiritual renewal

32:27 - The gift of attentive presence and hearing God in quiet moments

33:08 - Closing reflection: We are seen, loved, and part of this living world

Resources & Links:

· Looking Up: A Birder's Guide to Hope Through Grief by Courtney Ellis

· Weathering Change: Seeking Peace Amid Life's Tough Transitions by Courtney Ellis · Courtney Ellis - Website | Instagram

· Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom (Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off)

Practice Gift:

Join Courtney’s Lent birding challenge: Spend 10 minutes outdoors or by a window each day, observing and listening quietly for birds. Over the season, notice how this simple practice opens your heart to divine whispers amid the unfolding beauty of creation. Remember, all will be well.

Soundtrack Credits:

Nature Documentary by Tunetank

Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions

Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

In this ambling conversation, Deb Gregory and Mark Buchanan offer a contemplative exploration of walking as a profound spiritual practice. They delve into how walking can ground us more deeply in humility, wonder, and intimacy with God. This episode invites us to Slow Down, notice the sacred woven into everyday life, and step more fully into the divine rhythm that surrounds us.

In this episode:

· The deep connection between walking, humility, and embodied spirituality

· How walking shifts us from rumination to reflection and insight

· The biblical roots of walking as a spiritual act, from Eden to Emmaus

· The science behind embodied cognition, resonance, and synchronicity in walking with others

· Practical ways to incorporate mindful walking and noticing into daily life

· The creative and prophetic power of walking in story and novel writing

· How walking can deepen intimacy with God and open us to surprising revelations

Reflection & Practice:

· Take a familiar route, whether in your neighborhood or a quiet nature trail. Walk slowly, with curiosity. Notice what your senses reveal—textures, sounds, scents—and allow these details to ground you in the present moment.

· As you walk, silently or aloud, repeat a gentle mantra like: God’s love, my humility. Let this rhythm settle into your gait.

· Pause at a point where something catches your eye—an object, a scene, or even an absence—and offer a quick prayer or reflection. Ask: What is this moment inviting me to notice about God’s presence or my own life?

· Conclude with a few moments of silence, sensing the quiet stillness within and around.

Remember, walking can be more than a mode of travel. It’s a sacred act—an embodied prayer that awakens us to divine surprises in the ordinary, an invitation to meet God and ourselves anew with every step.

Resources & Links:

· Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom (Use Code IVPOD25 for 25% off)

· Mark Buchanan’s Website

Timestamps:

00:00 - Welcome to the Betwixt podcast: Embodying wisdom in daily walks

00:17 - Introducing Mark Buchanan and the spiritual potential of walking

01:42 - Mark shares about his life, love for wild places, and what draws him outdoors

02:46 - Sent for a walk meditation, and the invitation to navigate by trees

03:38 - The Micah walk: moving into God's love and humility through walking

05:15 - How walking cultivates humility amid a culture of speed and achievement

06:50 - Walking as a humble act that reminds us of our life limits and dependence on God

08:40 - The vulnerability and humility inherent in wandering wilderness landscapes

09:56 - Self-reflection, love, and humility as we walk through our brokenness

10:43 - The transformative power of walking beyond rumination into contemplation

12:22 - Why walking is a core spiritual practice for Christians, rooted in Scripture

13:12 - The biblical and historical significance of walking in the story of faith

15:07 - Walking as a pathway to hearing from God, exemplified in the Road to Emmaus

16:06 - Walking in Sabbath and the deepened awareness of God's presence

18:38 - The surprising normality of revelation in walking, not just in sacred spaces

19:32 - The science of embodied cognition, resonance, and shared rhythm in walking with others

21:43 - Hearing from God in the body, especially through diverse neurodivergent experiences

25:27 - The mystic within us: cultivating a spiritual openness and receptivity

26:45 - The importance of opening ourselves to all ways God might show up

28:16 - The theological and scriptural affirmation that walking is embedded in our faith tradition

29:41 - How walking and surprise are woven into biblical encounters with the Divine

30:50 - Mark’s new novel and the interplay of walking, story, and courage during dark times

35:01 - The creative process of writing and how walking fuels inspiration

36:46 - Practical tips: noticing new details on familiar paths as a spiritual exercise

37:50 - Prayerful walking: turning everyday observation into ongoing conversation with God

38:41 - The sacramental beauty of the ordinary—recognizing divine whispers in daily life

39:01 - Closing the walk: an invitation to embody the sacred through simple, mindful steps

Soundtrack Credits:

· Nature Documentary by Tunetank

· Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions

· Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

Join us in this contemplative conversation with Jesuit Father Brendan McManus, whose life of pilgrimage and spiritual accompaniment reveals the deep ways walking can transform our hearts and minds. Through stories of the Camino de Santiago, discernment in nature, and the embodiment of Ignatian spirituality, Brendan invites us to see walking as a sacred act of opening ourselves to divine love and presence.

Main insights from this episode:

· How walking in darkness and dawn can heighten awareness of God's light and love

· The power of embodied prayer through simple gestures and mantras during walks

· Long pilgrimage journeys as transformative spaces for healing grief, fear, and finding clarity

· The significance of discernment in action — listening for God's voice amid movement and challenge

· Ignatian principles of consolation and desolation as guides for interior awareness

· Practical ways to create your own pilgrimage in everyday life and small journeys at home

· The importance of silent, intentional walking for deep spiritual listening

· Insights on processing grief and trauma through the body's movement and reflective practices

· How the ongoing journey continues after the pilgrimage ends, needing space for integration

· God's love as the foundation for our discernment, healing, and calling

Timestamps:

00:00 - Welcome and introduction to spiritual wayfinding through pilgrimage

02:09 - Fr Brendan shares about walking in the dawn and experiencing God's presence

04:54 - The surprising intimacy of walking in darkness and relying on external light

06:43 - Long walks in Ireland and Ireland’s pilgrim routes as catalyzers for conversion

07:49 - The significance of Camino de Santiago in Fr Brendan’s life and formation

08:36 - A profound experience of prayer and trust amidst hardship on the Camino

10:19 - Fr Brendan’s journey from careers in IT and psychology to Jesuit ministry

12:38 - Reflecting on walking in nature as a source of clarity and listening to God

13:19 - Creating space for silence, reflection, and discerning God's call in pilgrimage

15:00 - How challenges teach us about humility, moderation, and God's voice

17:15 - Embodying discernment in motion, paying attention to interior movements

18:46 - Questions and aspirations pilgrims bring to their journeys

19:46 - The gift of Ignatian spirituality: noticing consolation and desolation

22:49 - The inward and outward half-light as a trail marker for spiritual clarity

26:26 - Fr Brendan’s powerful story of grief and healing through a pilgrimage after brother's suicide

28:42 - The body’s role in metabolizing grief, and the unfolding process after pilgrimage

30:33 - Living the Camino back home: processing long-term transformation

32:53 - Grounding in God's love and foundational trust in the spiritual journey

37:59 - A simple embodied practice: asking for grace in advance before walking

39:42 - Letting nature and prayer unfold naturally, not overcomplicating

41:22 - A gentle invitation to observe interior movements: consolation, desolation

42:21 - Trust in God's gentle companionship in every step of life’s pilgrimage

Resources & Links: ⁠

Spiritual Wayfinding by Deb Gregory ⁠⁠

Father Brendan McManus, SJ⁠⁠

Finding God in the Mess by Brendan McManus SJ ⁠⁠

The Camino de Santiago ⁠⁠

Camino Companions Ministry ⁠⁠

Ignatian Spirituality Resources⁠

Feel inspired to step into your own pilgrimage—whether walking in nature, reflecting in silence, or carrying sacred rituals into daily life. Remember, God is always walking with us, inviting us deeper into love, trust, and presence.

Meditation music: Documentary Nature by ⁠Viacheslav Starostin⁠

Intro Music: Palms Down by BlueDot Sessions

Closing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

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A New Season of Betwixt Podcast is on the way! Deb Gregory shares the evolution of her podcast journey—from exploring liminal spaces to embracing embodied practices that deepen our spiritual walk. She invites us into a more grounded, movement-centered approach to recognizing God's presence and discovering ourselves along life's liminal passages. Whether you're a seasoned contemplative or just beginning to tune into your body’s wisdom, this season offers a thoughtfully grounded and nourishing perspective on spiritual transformation.