Autistic pastor and spiritual director Josh Davis takes us inside the sensory‑rich, embodied wisdom of neurodivergent spirituality. He shares how his body processes emotional and sensory spikes, how stimming helps him settle, and why music has become his “heart language”—a place to regulate and commune with God without words.

We explore the surge of surprise, the role of embodied prayer, and the spiritual depth that emerges when we honor the body’s way of knowing.

Featuring selections from Josh’s own music throughout the episode.

In this episode:

• How surprise impacts emotional regulation and spiritual transformation, guided by research from “surpriseologists” Tania Luna and Leanne Renninger
• The significance of the surprise regulation protocol: freeze, find, shift, and share
• Josh’s embodied practices for connecting with God through sunlight, blessing, and sensory grounding
• The nuances of masking versus unmasking, and the spiritual journey of owning neurodivergent traits
• The sacred role of music as a heart language that fosters divine communion
• Challenges and creative solutions for neurodivergent believers in church environments
• The importance of cultivating spaces of authentic belonging and vulnerability
• How imagination works differently in neurodivergence, including insights on aphantasia and alternative pathways to divine encounter
• Practical ways leaders and spiritual directors can validate diverse pathways to God and nurture neurodivergent gifts
• A guided reflection inspired by Psalm 34 to taste, see, hear, smell, and touch the goodness of God

Timestamps:

(00:00) The power of surprise and its role in emotional and spiritual awakening

(02:37) The surprise regulation protocol: freeze, find, shift, share

(07:12) Embodied spiritual practices for regulation and connection

(10:16) Understanding neurodivergence as creative diversity

(17:12) How surprise amplifies emotions and how to cultivate grace

(22:14) Neurodivergent experiences of church, worship, and belonging

(28:04) The gifts of neurodivergent believers: diversity as divine design

(30:42) The spiritual richness of the body and movement in Scripture and practice

(35:24) The unmasking process: vulnerability, shame, and spiritual freedom

(46:46) Imagining with and without visualization: a guide for spiritual growth

(58:11) A simple embodied meditation to taste and see God’s goodness

Resources & Links:

• Neurodivergent Faith Podcast
• Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom by Deborah Gregory
• Psalm 34 Scripture
• Surprise by Tanya Luna & Leanne Renniger

Connect with Josh Davis:

• Podcast: Neurodivergent Faith Podcast
• YouTube: Just Josh Davis (Autistic Pastor)  
• Facebook - Josh Davis
• Instagram -@autisticpastor
• Music – Just Josh Davis on Bandcamp

Extended Closing Meditation:

Join Josh in this embodied reflection: pause, notice one sensory experience that signals God's goodness, and breathe in divine blessing. Feel free to adapt practices for your own body, soul, and context—trusting that transformation often begins in the surprise of simply showing up as ourselves.

Music:

Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions

Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

Featured Songs by Josh Davis: What If, Desire

Today’s guest is Br. Guy Consolmagno, SJ—astronomer, Jesuit brother, and former Director of the Vatican Observatory. Br. Guy has spent his life studying meteorites, galaxies, and the deep structure of the cosmos, all while living a profoundly grounded Ignatian spirituality. His work invites us to see scientific curiosity not as a threat to faith, but as one of its most natural expressions.

In this conversation, we explore how wonder becomes a spiritual practice, how humility is woven into the fabric of the universe, and why the vastness of space can actually draw us closer to a God who delights in creation. Br. Guy shares stories from his decades of research, his unexpected path to the Jesuits, and the surprising ways science can deepen our prayer.

Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

In This Episode

• Why wonder is essential to both science and spiritual life
• How Ignatian spirituality shapes the way we explore the cosmos
• What meteorites teach us about time, humility, and God’s creativity
• Why the universe’s vastness doesn’t diminish us—it situates us
• How curiosity can become a form of prayer
• The role of joy, play, and delight in scientific discovery
• What it means to trust a God who is both intimate and unimaginably expansive

Trail Marker: The Spiritual Gift of Wonder

Midway through the episode, we pause to reflect on awe as a spiritual posture. Br. Guy describes awe and wonder not as a fleeting emotions but as a way of being awake to God’s presence in the world. Wonder slows us down,  opens us up, and reminds us that we are creatures—finite but infinitely loved.

He reminds us that *the universe is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be entered.* That shift—from control to curiosity—changes how we pray, how we learn, and how we live.

Timecodes:

• 0:53–4:34 Brother Guy introduces walking prayer, embodiment, and finding God in physical creation
• 5:15–8:19 Pain, the ankle injury, and how suffering deepens gratitude and awareness
• 10:51–15:07 Awe, science, adventure, and why he joined the Jesuits
• 18:20–24:31 Finding God in all things, the vastness of the universe, and God’s attention
• 27:47–33:50 Beauty, acatamiento, awe vs. fear, and being overwhelmed in a good way
• 34:30–37:55 Justice, mercy, the poor, Sabbath, and why rest matters
• 41:08–44:07 The moon practice as a simple spiritual exercise
• 44:11–45:01 Closing reflections and final blessing

Resources Mentioned

• Jesuit Guide to the Stars (Loyola Press)
• Vatican Observatory
• Specola Vaticana
• Vatican Observatory Foundation
• God’s Grandeur: A poem by Gerard Manley Hopkins, SJ (Read by Jonathan Roumie)
• Connect with Deb: Flourish Spiritual Direction | Substack | Facebook | Instagram
• Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

Soundtrack Credits

Opening Music: “Palms Down” — Blue Dot Sessions

Closing Song: “Roots” — Ryvoli

Today’s guest is Lacy Finn Borgo—spiritual director, Renovaré faculty member, and longtime companion to children and families at Haven House, a transitional housing community in Colorado. Lacy is also the author of Spiritual Conversations with Children and Life with God for Children, books that have helped many of us reimagine children not as empty vessels to be filled, but as natural contemplatives who can lead us deeper into the heart of God.

In this episode, we explore how children pray with their whole bodies, how play becomes a doorway into God’s presence, and how adults can learn to listen with humility and curiosity. Lacy shares stories from her work with children navigating trauma, her research on projection and imagination, and the surprising ways children model freedom, resilience, and unselfconscious connection with God.

In This Episode

• How children naturally engage God through play, imagination, and embodied movement
• Why adults often over-teach and under-listen
• The role of projection in helping children express their inner world
• How walking side-by-side opens deeper conversations
• Embodied practices that help children (and adults) regulate anxiety
• What children teach us about failure, freedom, and spiritual courage

Trail Marker: Why Poohsticks Works

Midway through the episode, we pause to explore the Pooh Thought-Sticks meditation—a practice Lacy and I reference early on. We look at why this simple act of naming a thought, choosing a stick, and releasing it into moving water helps the nervous system shift from defensiveness to openness. Rather than erasing or fighting difficult thoughts, Poohsticks teaches us to acknowledge them, accept them, and entrust them to God’s care.

You can download the full Pooh Thought-sticks walk from Spiritual Wayfinding here: Download the Poohsticks Walk → LINK

Resources Mentioned

• Spiritual Conversations with Children — Lacy Finn Borgo
• Life with God for Children — Lacy Finn Borgo
• Spiritual Wayfinding — Deb Gregory
• Connect with Lacy: Good Dirt Ministries | Substack | Facebook | Instagram
• Connect with Deb: Flourish Spiritual Direction | Substack | Facebook | Instagram

Soundtrack Credits:

Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions

Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

In this episode, Deb Gregory talks with Chris Hoklotubbe and Danny Zacharias about Indigenous Christian wisdom and the role of land in shaping faith, community, and Scripture. We explore embodied practices of gratitude and reciprocity, Turtle Island hermeneutics, and the ways reconnecting with the land transforms how we read the Bible and live well.

Key insights include:

• The importance of land-based spiritual practices rooted in Indigenous stories like Sky Woman and Turtle Island.
• The significance of the circle dance as a metaphor for community interpretation of scripture and life with God.
• How biblical stories of creation and covenant invite us into a relational view of land, moving beyond exploitation.
• Disrupting doctrines like the Doctrine of Discovery with asset-based Indigenous theologies recognizing God’s presence everywhere.
• Practical embodied practices: slowing down, saying thank you, touching trees, and honoring the land as a spiritual act of gratitude.
• The role of gratitude and recognition in fostering belonging, empathy, and a sacred interconnectedness.
• The integration of Indigenous wisdom into Christian spirituality as a way to live well with all our relations.

Timestamps:

00:00 - Welcome and introduction to guests and themes of land, community, and spirituality

02:09 - The embodied nature of land connection and its scientific backing

04:12 - Grounding in mountains, plains, and ocean—land as a space for prayer and presence

05:33 - Indigenous stories of Sky Woman, Turtle Island, and the land as a reciprocal gift

10:47 - The circle dance as a metaphor for interpretive community and scriptural engagement

16:42 - Co-authoring "Reading the Bible on Turtle Island" and the journey of cultural reclamation

20:23 - The meaning of the book's title and the land as a story of gratitude and interconnectedness

23:21 - Turtle Island hermeneutics: engagement with creation and Scripture as a relational act

25:29 - Challenging the Genesis 3 narrative with asset-based theology grounded in goodness

27:40 - Disrupting the Doctrine of Discovery with indigenous perspectives of land as God's gift

32:03 - The garden as a space of covenantal relationship and stewardship

35:13 - Embodied practices: gratitude, slowing down, and caring for trees and land

39:48 - Invitation for listeners to adopt land-based mindfulness and gratitude practices

43:56 - How land and nature deepen our relationship with God and the sacred story

45:50 - Concluding reflections and call to ongoing dialogue and action

Resources & Links:

Reading the Bible on Turtle Island (book)

NAIITS - North American Institute for Indigenous Theological Studies

Connect with Deb Gregory: Instagram | Flourish Spiritual Direction Website

Connect with Chris Hoklotubbe: LinkedIn

Connect with Danny Zacharias: Personal Website

This episode invites us all to slow, listen, and honor the sacred relationships that sustain life. May we approach land and each other with gratitude, humility, and a spirit of reciprocity, embodying the deep wisdom that abounds in creation and Scripture alike.

Soundtrack Credits:

Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions

Documentary Nature Music by Viacheslav Starostin

Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

In today’s episode, Deb Gregory is joined by Courtney Ellis to explore the deep connections between nature, our bodies, and our spiritual journeys. Through mindful birding practices and embracing the liminal spaces of change, they reveal how tending to the natural world can help us find peace, resilience, and a sense of divine presence amid life’s transitions.

In this episode:

· Courtney’s personal experience with birding as a spiritual practice during a health and grief journey

· The sensory richness of birding and its embodied connection to prayer and presence

· The metaphor of rising above a narrow focus to panoramic vision for emotional and spiritual health

· How curiosity and receptivity open us to divine grace in nature and in our lives

· The significance of liminal and ‘thin’ spaces where transformation and renewal happen

· Practical ways to cultivate stillness, attention, and wonder during seasons of uncertainty

· The importance of embracing one’s unique interests as pathways to God's delight and presence

· Insights from Courtney’s books Looking Up and Weathering Change on navigating grief and change through the natural world

Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction: Navigating the spiritual life with embodied wisdom

00:17 - Partnership with InterVarsity Press and Courtney’s new books

01:12 - Exploring the spiritual practice of birding and nature connection

01:49 - Courtney’s identity and passions: birds, books, and faith

02:47 - The significance of loving what you love in spiritual formation

03:06 - Bird walk as mindfulness: letting the birds minister to us

03:42 - How health challenges led Courtney outdoors for renewal

04:54 - How birding helps us become aware of God's presence

05:18 - The stillness of listening and paying attention in prayer

06:06 - Using multiple senses to deepen engagement with nature

06:40 - The gentle art of waiting, receiving, and centering through birding

08:18 - The calming effects of being outdoors and observing birds

09:09 - Faith as curiosity, wonder, and receptivity like birding

09:34 - Letting go of trying to force faith and delighting in God’s gifts

10:28 - The role of joy and delight in discipleship & spiritual growth

11:00 - Embracing special interests as sacred pathways to God

12:23 - Integrating passions like birding into spiritual practices

13:39 - Courtney’s book Looking Up on grief and natural world as balm

14:43 - Personal grief journey during her grandfather’s passing

16:03 - Scientific evidence of nature’s healing power in grief and depression

17:00 - How awe walks foster humility and wonder

17:48 - The importance of perspective and humility in seasons of change

19:02 - The science behind panoramic vision and stress reduction during birdwatching

20:07 - Nature’s attentional resets and echoes of divine renewal

21:32 - Courtney’s new book Weathering Change on the lessons of nature for navigating transformation

22:13 - How change impacts the body, cognition, and emotion

23:02 - Recognizing that both good and difficult changes wear us out

24:20 - Learning from animals’ acceptance of change and adaptation

25:46 - Cultivating curiosity and gentle engagement with change

26:38 - The liminal space as a ‘thin place’ of divine meeting and transformation

27:32 - Biblical stories of transition: Hagar, Abram, and the wilderness

29:02 - A story of decomposition and the patience of natural processes

30:34 - Practical embodied practice: Lent birding challenge

31:06 - The power of a quiet 10-minute outdoor or window sit for spiritual renewal

32:27 - The gift of attentive presence and hearing God in quiet moments

33:08 - Closing reflection: We are seen, loved, and part of this living world

Resources & Links:

· Looking Up: A Birder's Guide to Hope Through Grief by Courtney Ellis

· Weathering Change: Seeking Peace Amid Life's Tough Transitions by Courtney Ellis · Courtney Ellis - Website | Instagram

· Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom (Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off)

Practice Gift:

Join Courtney’s Lent birding challenge: Spend 10 minutes outdoors or by a window each day, observing and listening quietly for birds. Over the season, notice how this simple practice opens your heart to divine whispers amid the unfolding beauty of creation. Remember, all will be well.

Soundtrack Credits:

Nature Documentary by Tunetank

Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions

Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

In this ambling conversation, Deb Gregory and Mark Buchanan offer a contemplative exploration of walking as a profound spiritual practice. They delve into how walking can ground us more deeply in humility, wonder, and intimacy with God. This episode invites us to Slow Down, notice the sacred woven into everyday life, and step more fully into the divine rhythm that surrounds us.

In this episode:

· The deep connection between walking, humility, and embodied spirituality

· How walking shifts us from rumination to reflection and insight

· The biblical roots of walking as a spiritual act, from Eden to Emmaus

· The science behind embodied cognition, resonance, and synchronicity in walking with others

· Practical ways to incorporate mindful walking and noticing into daily life

· The creative and prophetic power of walking in story and novel writing

· How walking can deepen intimacy with God and open us to surprising revelations

Reflection & Practice:

· Take a familiar route, whether in your neighborhood or a quiet nature trail. Walk slowly, with curiosity. Notice what your senses reveal—textures, sounds, scents—and allow these details to ground you in the present moment.

· As you walk, silently or aloud, repeat a gentle mantra like: God’s love, my humility. Let this rhythm settle into your gait.

· Pause at a point where something catches your eye—an object, a scene, or even an absence—and offer a quick prayer or reflection. Ask: What is this moment inviting me to notice about God’s presence or my own life?

· Conclude with a few moments of silence, sensing the quiet stillness within and around.

Remember, walking can be more than a mode of travel. It’s a sacred act—an embodied prayer that awakens us to divine surprises in the ordinary, an invitation to meet God and ourselves anew with every step.

Resources & Links:

· Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom (Use Code IVPOD25 for 25% off)

· Mark Buchanan’s Website

Timestamps:

00:00 - Welcome to the Betwixt podcast: Embodying wisdom in daily walks

00:17 - Introducing Mark Buchanan and the spiritual potential of walking

01:42 - Mark shares about his life, love for wild places, and what draws him outdoors

02:46 - Sent for a walk meditation, and the invitation to navigate by trees

03:38 - The Micah walk: moving into God's love and humility through walking

05:15 - How walking cultivates humility amid a culture of speed and achievement

06:50 - Walking as a humble act that reminds us of our life limits and dependence on God

08:40 - The vulnerability and humility inherent in wandering wilderness landscapes

09:56 - Self-reflection, love, and humility as we walk through our brokenness

10:43 - The transformative power of walking beyond rumination into contemplation

12:22 - Why walking is a core spiritual practice for Christians, rooted in Scripture

13:12 - The biblical and historical significance of walking in the story of faith

15:07 - Walking as a pathway to hearing from God, exemplified in the Road to Emmaus

16:06 - Walking in Sabbath and the deepened awareness of God's presence

18:38 - The surprising normality of revelation in walking, not just in sacred spaces

19:32 - The science of embodied cognition, resonance, and shared rhythm in walking with others

21:43 - Hearing from God in the body, especially through diverse neurodivergent experiences

25:27 - The mystic within us: cultivating a spiritual openness and receptivity

26:45 - The importance of opening ourselves to all ways God might show up

28:16 - The theological and scriptural affirmation that walking is embedded in our faith tradition

29:41 - How walking and surprise are woven into biblical encounters with the Divine

30:50 - Mark’s new novel and the interplay of walking, story, and courage during dark times

35:01 - The creative process of writing and how walking fuels inspiration

36:46 - Practical tips: noticing new details on familiar paths as a spiritual exercise

37:50 - Prayerful walking: turning everyday observation into ongoing conversation with God

38:41 - The sacramental beauty of the ordinary—recognizing divine whispers in daily life

39:01 - Closing the walk: an invitation to embody the sacred through simple, mindful steps

Soundtrack Credits:

· Nature Documentary by Tunetank

· Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions

· Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

Join us in this contemplative conversation with Jesuit Father Brendan McManus, whose life of pilgrimage and spiritual accompaniment reveals the deep ways walking can transform our hearts and minds. Through stories of the Camino de Santiago, discernment in nature, and the embodiment of Ignatian spirituality, Brendan invites us to see walking as a sacred act of opening ourselves to divine love and presence.

Main insights from this episode:

· How walking in darkness and dawn can heighten awareness of God's light and love

· The power of embodied prayer through simple gestures and mantras during walks

· Long pilgrimage journeys as transformative spaces for healing grief, fear, and finding clarity

· The significance of discernment in action — listening for God's voice amid movement and challenge

· Ignatian principles of consolation and desolation as guides for interior awareness

· Practical ways to create your own pilgrimage in everyday life and small journeys at home

· The importance of silent, intentional walking for deep spiritual listening

· Insights on processing grief and trauma through the body's movement and reflective practices

· How the ongoing journey continues after the pilgrimage ends, needing space for integration

· God's love as the foundation for our discernment, healing, and calling

Timestamps:

00:00 - Welcome and introduction to spiritual wayfinding through pilgrimage

02:09 - Fr Brendan shares about walking in the dawn and experiencing God's presence

04:54 - The surprising intimacy of walking in darkness and relying on external light

06:43 - Long walks in Ireland and Ireland’s pilgrim routes as catalyzers for conversion

07:49 - The significance of Camino de Santiago in Fr Brendan’s life and formation

08:36 - A profound experience of prayer and trust amidst hardship on the Camino

10:19 - Fr Brendan’s journey from careers in IT and psychology to Jesuit ministry

12:38 - Reflecting on walking in nature as a source of clarity and listening to God

13:19 - Creating space for silence, reflection, and discerning God's call in pilgrimage

15:00 - How challenges teach us about humility, moderation, and God's voice

17:15 - Embodying discernment in motion, paying attention to interior movements

18:46 - Questions and aspirations pilgrims bring to their journeys

19:46 - The gift of Ignatian spirituality: noticing consolation and desolation

22:49 - The inward and outward half-light as a trail marker for spiritual clarity

26:26 - Fr Brendan’s powerful story of grief and healing through a pilgrimage after brother's suicide

28:42 - The body’s role in metabolizing grief, and the unfolding process after pilgrimage

30:33 - Living the Camino back home: processing long-term transformation

32:53 - Grounding in God's love and foundational trust in the spiritual journey

37:59 - A simple embodied practice: asking for grace in advance before walking

39:42 - Letting nature and prayer unfold naturally, not overcomplicating

41:22 - A gentle invitation to observe interior movements: consolation, desolation

42:21 - Trust in God's gentle companionship in every step of life’s pilgrimage

Resources & Links: ⁠

Spiritual Wayfinding by Deb Gregory ⁠⁠

Father Brendan McManus, SJ⁠⁠

Finding God in the Mess by Brendan McManus SJ ⁠⁠

The Camino de Santiago ⁠⁠

Camino Companions Ministry ⁠⁠

Ignatian Spirituality Resources⁠

Feel inspired to step into your own pilgrimage—whether walking in nature, reflecting in silence, or carrying sacred rituals into daily life. Remember, God is always walking with us, inviting us deeper into love, trust, and presence.

Meditation music: Documentary Nature by ⁠Viacheslav Starostin⁠

Intro Music: Palms Down by BlueDot Sessions

Closing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

Disclaimer: The comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and/or the guests featured on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of InterVarsity Press or InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.

As an Amazon Affiliate, this channel earns commissions from qualifying purchases when you use the links above. 

A New Season of Betwixt Podcast is on the way! Deb Gregory shares the evolution of her podcast journey—from exploring liminal spaces to embracing embodied practices that deepen our spiritual walk. She invites us into a more grounded, movement-centered approach to recognizing God's presence and discovering ourselves along life's liminal passages. Whether you're a seasoned contemplative or just beginning to tune into your body’s wisdom, this season offers a thoughtfully grounded and nourishing perspective on spiritual transformation.