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Dr. Paul Penley is a New Testament scholar and former Bible professor at the college and seminary level. Paul writes books to share academic research insights which redefine our understanding of the Bible, but normally get lost in technical journals at graduate libraries. He loves seeing readers freed from the misdirection and disillusionment caused by bad Bible interpretation. Dr. Penley studied Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic on his journey to better understanding Scripture in undergraduate and post-graduate degrees. He studied biblical history on site in Israel, Egypt, Turkey and Greece and then picked up German and French while completing a Ph.D. from Trinity’s Divinity School. He has presented his original biblical and historical research in college courses and national scholars’ meetings, at Shabbat school and church retreats, at Bible conference centers and small groups.

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Dr. Paul Penley is a New Testament scholar and former Bible professor at the college and seminary level. Paul writes books to share academic research insights which redefine our understanding of the Bible, but normally get lost in technical journals at graduate libraries. He loves seeing readers freed from the misdirection and disillusionment caused by bad Bible interpretation. Dr. Penley studied Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic on his journey to better understanding Scripture in undergraduate and post-graduate degrees. He studied biblical history on site in Israel, Egypt, Turkey and Greece and then picked up German and French while completing a Ph.D. from Trinity’s Divinity School. He has presented his original biblical and historical research in college courses and national scholars’ meetings, at Shabbat school and church retreats, at Bible conference centers and small groups.

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Marty Solomon is a theologian, president and director of discipleship for Impact Campus Ministries, and the creator and executive producer of the BEMA Podcast. He and his wife Rebekah live in Cincinnati with their two children. Marty's previous book was titled Asking Better Questions of the Bible: A Guide for the Wounded, Wary & Longing for More. Find out more about Marty at www.martysolomon.com.

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Dr. Paul Penley is a New Testament scholar and former Bible professor at the college and seminary level. Paul writes books to share academic research insights which redefine our understanding of the Bible, but normally get lost in technical journals at graduate libraries. He loves seeing readers freed from the misdirection and disillusionment caused by bad Bible interpretation. Dr. Penley studied Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic on his journey to better understanding Scripture in undergraduate and post-graduate degrees. He studied biblical history on site in Israel, Egypt, Turkey and Greece and then picked up German and French while completing a Ph.D. from Trinity’s Divinity School. He has presented his original biblical and historical research in college courses and national scholars’ meetings, at Shabbat school and church retreats, at Bible conference centers and small groups.

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Dr. Paul Penley is a New Testament scholar and former Bible professor at the college and seminary level. Paul writes books to share academic research insights which redefine our understanding of the Bible, but normally get lost in technical journals at graduate libraries. He loves seeing readers freed from the misdirection and disillusionment caused by bad Bible interpretation. Dr. Penley studied Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic on his journey to better understanding Scripture in undergraduate and post-graduate degrees. He studied biblical history on site in Israel, Egypt, Turkey and Greece and then picked up German and French while completing a Ph.D. from Trinity’s Divinity School. He has presented his original biblical and historical research in college courses and national scholars’ meetings, at Shabbat school and church retreats, at Bible conference centers and small groups.

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Dr. Paul Penley is a New Testament scholar and former Bible professor at the college and seminary level. Paul writes books to share academic research insights which redefine our understanding of the Bible, but normally get lost in technical journals at graduate libraries. He loves seeing readers freed from the misdirection and disillusionment caused by bad Bible interpretation. Dr. Penley studied Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic on his journey to better understanding Scripture in undergraduate and post-graduate degrees. He studied biblical history on site in Israel, Egypt, Turkey and Greece and then picked up German and French while completing a Ph.D. from Trinity’s Divinity School. He has presented his original biblical and historical research in college courses and national scholars’ meetings, at Shabbat school and church retreats, at Bible conference centers and small groups.

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Dr. Paul Penley is a New Testament scholar and former Bible professor at the college and seminary level. Paul writes books to share academic research insights which redefine our understanding of the Bible, but normally get lost in technical journals at graduate libraries. He loves seeing readers freed from the misdirection and disillusionment caused by bad Bible interpretation. Dr. Penley studied Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic on his journey to better understanding Scripture in undergraduate and post-graduate degrees. He studied biblical history on site in Israel, Egypt, Turkey and Greece and then picked up German and French while completing a Ph.D. from Trinity’s Divinity School. He has presented his original biblical and historical research in college courses and national scholars’ meetings, at Shabbat school and church retreats, at Bible conference centers and small groups.

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SHOW NOTES:

The article Ben referenced about Lent and fasting: gravitycommons.com/how-to-fast-for-lent/

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Timothy McCain is an author, speaker, and entrepreneur with over two decades of experience in leading and developing initiatives across various sectors. He is the founder and CEO of TMM Publishing, which focuses on helping professionals and through leaders turn ideas into books and scalable platforms, emphasizing ownership and sustainability. McCain's work includes consulting, coaching, and public speaking, guiding individuals and organizations from vision to implementation.

SHOW NOTES:

Good Lord Rose Kickstarter campaign: http://kck.st/4qavaUB

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Dr. Paul Penley is a New Testament scholar and former Bible professor at the college and seminary level. Paul writes books to share academic research insights which redefine our understanding of the Bible, but normally get lost in technical journals at graduate libraries. He loves seeing readers freed from the misdirection and disillusionment caused by bad Bible interpretation. Dr. Penley studied Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic on his journey to better understanding Scripture in undergraduate and post-graduate degrees. He studied biblical history on site in Israel, Egypt, Turkey and Greece and then picked up German and French while completing a Ph.D. from Trinity’s Divinity School. He has presented his original biblical and historical research in college courses and national scholars’ meetings, at Shabbat school and church retreats, at Bible conference centers and small groups.

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Michael W. Austin is Foundation Professor of Philosophy at Eastern Kentucky University and Bonhoeffer Senior Fellow of the Miller Center for Interreligious Learning and Leadership of Hebrew College. He has published 12 books, including Humility: Rediscovering the Way of Love and Life in Christ and QAnon, Chaos, and the Cross: Christianity and Conspiracy Theories.

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David Swanson is the founding pastor of New Community Covenant Church and the founder and CEO of New Community Outreach, a non-profit organization dedicated to healing community trauma through restorative practices. He has written Rediscipling the White Church: From Cheap Diversity to True Solidarity and Plundered: The Tangled Roots of Racial and Environmental Injustice. David lives with his family on the South Side of Chicago. He keeps track of what he’s reading here and on most Tuesday mornings you’ll find him wandering around Jackson Park looking for birds.

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Yolanda Pierce is a professor and Dean of Vanderbilt University Divinity School. She is a scholar of African American religious history, womanist theology, and religion and literature, as well as a public theologian, columnist, and activist. She is the author of the books Hell Without Fires, In My Grandmother's House, and The Wounds Are the Witness.You can connect with Yolanda on her website: yolandapierce.com.

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Show notes & links:

• Door chalking liturgy
• King Cake recipe
• Photo of Christmas tree cross

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Zach Lambert is the lead pastor and founder of Restore Austin, a church in Austin, Texas. Under his leadership, restore has grown from a launch team of five people in 2015 to more than 1000 members today. He has a Master of Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary and is pursuing his doctorate at Duke Divinity School. Zach is the cofounder of the Post-Evangelical Collective and serves on the boards of Restore Houston, Hub Garage (a nonprofit for single moms), the Austin Church-Planting Network, and the Multi-Faith Neighbors Network. He lives in Austin with his wife and their two sons.

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Kelsey Kramer McGinnis, PhD (University of Iowa) is a musicologist, educator, and correspondent for Christianity Today, writing on worship practices and Christian subculture. She is an adjunct professor at Grandview University in Des Moines and previously worked at the University of Iowa Center for Human Rights.

Marisa Franks Burt has an MA in Theological Studies and is a novelist, editor, teacher, and cohost of the At Home with the Lectionary podcast. She lives in a small town in the greater Seattle area with her husband, six children, and heaps of books.

You can connect with Kelsey on her website, Substack, and Instagram.

You can connect with Marissa on her website, Substack, and Instagram.

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Karen R. Keen (ThM, Duke Divinity School) is a biblical scholar and spiritual care provider at the Redwood Center for Spiritual Care and Education. Her books include Scripture, Ethics, and the Possibility of Same-Sex Relationships and The Word of a Humble God.

Ronald W. Pierce (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) taught theology at Talbot School of Theology, Biola University, for over forty years. He is the author of Partners in Marriage and Ministry and the coeditor of Discovering Biblical Equality.

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Rev. Angela Denker is a pastor in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and a veteran journalist. Her first book, Red State Christians, was the silver winner in political and social sciences for the 2019 Foreword Indies Book of the Year awards. She is a columnist for the Minnesota Star Tribune and has written for many publications, including Sports Illustrated, the Washington Post, and Fortune magazine. She has also appeared on CNN, BBC, SkyNews, and NPR. Pastor Denker lives with her husband, Ben, and two sons in Minneapolis, where she is a sought-after speaker on Christian nationalism and its theological and cultural roots.

You can connect with Angela and her work at her website: angeladenker.com.

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Philip Christman teaches first-year English at the University of Michigan. He is the author of Why Christians Should Be Leftists, Midwest Futures, and How to Be Normal, as well as many reviews and essays. He writes a weekly newsletter at philipchristman.substack.com.

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Paul T. Sloan is Associate Professor of Early Christianity at Houston Christian University in Houston, TX. He is the author of Mark 13 and the Return of the Shepherd and the coeditor of several books, including Son of God: Divine Sonship in Jewish and Christian Antiquity. Paul joins us today to talk about Jesus and the Law of Moses: The Gospels and the Restoration of Israel within First Century Judaism. 

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Dr. Charon Hribar (Cha-Ron Reebar) is a visionary leader, musician, and scholar. She serves as the Director of Cultural Strategies for the Kairos Center and Co-Director of Theomusicology and Movement Arts for the Poor People's Campaign. With over two decades of experience, she empowers leaders and integrates rituals and arts into organizing efforts.

Rev. Dr. Liz Theoharis is the Executive Director of the Kairos Center for Religion, Rights and Social Justice and co-chair of the Poor People's Campaign: A National Call for Moral Revival. She teaches at educational institutions across the country, including Union Theological Seminary in New York City, Episcopal Divinity School in Austin, Presbyterian Theological Seminary, and more.

SHOW NOTES:

We mentioned Liz Theoharis's book Always With Us? What Jesus Really Said About the Poor.

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Hanna Reichel is Charles Hodge Professor of Systematic Theology at Princeton Theological Seminary. Raised an ecumenical Lutheran, Reichel serves as a ruling Elder in the PC(USA) and on the Theology Working Group of the World Communion of Reformed Churches. Their work has won academic honors, including the Lautenschläger Award for Theological Promise and the Ernst Wolf award.

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Hillary McBride has a PhD from the University of British Columbia and is a registered psychologist and award-winning researcher who has hosted Other People's Problems and Holy/Hurt podcasts. She has a private practice in Victoria, BC and is the author of The Wisdom of Your Body, Practices for Embodied Living, and Mothers, Daughters, and Body Image. Her work has been recognized by the American Psychological Association and the Canadian Psychological Association.

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Michelle Van Loon has been a regular contributor to Christianity Today and In Touch Magazine. Her previous books include Becoming Sage: Cultivating Meaning, Purpose, and Spirituality in Midlife; Moments and Days: How our Holy Celebrations Shape our Faith; and If Only: Letting Go of Regret, which won an award of merit in the 2015 Christianity Today Book of the Year awards.

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Ben Wyatt is an Episcopal priest, psychotherapy resident, and author. He is the writer and host of the podcasts The Road to Nicea and In Simeon's Wake, which explore the world of ancient Christianity in fresh, accessible language. He holds an M.Div. and S.T.M. from Yale Divinity School, as well as an MA in Clinical Mental Health Counseling from Christian Theological Seminary. He is an excellent napper, a mediocre hiker, and an avid gamer.

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Beth Allison Barr is the James Vardman Endowed Chair of History at Baylor University in Waco, TX, where she specializes in medieval history, women's history, and church history. She is the author of the USA Today bestseller, The Making of Biblical Womanhood, and her work has been featured by NPR and the New Yorker; in addition she's written for Christianity Today, the Washington Post, the Dallas Morning News, Sojourners, and Baptist News Global. Barr lives in Texas with her husband-- a Baptist pastor-- and their two children.

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Will Harrison, Jr. is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker. He is married with six kids. He enjoys hiking, reading, and coffee. Over the past few years Will has been working through what it looks like to be post-evangelical, navigating faith and reality.

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Regina V. Cates is an author, activist, podcaster, and founder of "Romancing Your Soul," an organization that helps people develop lives of love, compassion, and purpose. Her first internationally bestselling book, Lead with Your Heart, continues to be an inspiration to people who desire a more fulfilled life. You can connect with Regina at her website, reginavcates.com.

Isaac Samuel Villegas served as the pastor of Chapel Hill Mennonite Fellowship for sixteen years and served on the governing board of the NC Council of Churches for over a decade. He writes regularly as a columnist for The Christian Century and Anabaptist World magazines, and his writing has also appeared in many other publications including Commonweal, Sojourners, and Faith & Leadership.

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Marc Alan Schelske is a thinker and speaker who has served as a full-time pastor since 1995 and is currently the teaching elder of Bridge City Community Church in Portland, Oregon. He also hosts The Apprenticeship Way podcast and is the author of The Wisdom of Your Heart and Discovering Your Authentic Core Values, as well as the book we're talking about today: Journaling for Spiritual Growth. "In my writing, I focus on what it takes to nurture a healthy inner life, something found at the intersection of grace and growth," Marc says. "I write and speak to help people find belonging, redemption, and growth as they discover the life God has designed for them."

SHOW NOTES:

We lost Ben to an unstable internet connection shortly after starting this podcast recording. Please respect our privacy during this difficult time.

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Benjamin Perry is a Presbyterian minister and an award-winning writer whose work has appeared in outlets like The Washington Post, Slate, Sojouners, and Bustle. With a degree in psychology from SUNY Geneseo and an MDiv from Union Theological Seminary, Perry has worked as an organizer with the New York chapter of the Poor People's Campaign and as an editor at Time, Inc. Perry has appeared on MSNBC, Al Jazeera, and NY1, and is the editor of the Queer Faith photojournalism series. He and his spouse, Erin Mayer, live in Maine.

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Rick Pidcock writes for Baptist News Global. He has a master of arts degree in worship from Northern Seminary. He is also the host of the Baptist News Global podcast “Highest Power: Church + State.” And he is a stay-at-home dad.

Links to resources mentioned in this episode:

• "Allegations against Tim Whitaker and The New Evangelicals show how hierarchy transfers to progressive ministries" by Rick Pidcock
•  "That time I got an angry call from the subject of an article about anger and abuse" by Rick Pidcock
• "Comment from BNG’s editor on our coverage of The New Evangelicals" by Mark Wingfield
• TNE Reckoning, a site advocating for accountability, where you can download the full GRACE report.
• Exiles in Christendom - Rick's Substack newsletter
• The Highest Power: Church and State - Rick's podcast

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Dr. Christy Penley is married to her husband Paul, a mom of 6, and pastor at Pulpit Rock Church in Colorado. She has spent her professional career teaching the Bible to kids, students and adults, and recently received a DMin from Denver Seminary. Christy is a facilitator for Gravity's Formation Course and offers one-on-one coaching for both pastors and lay people.

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Dr. Paul Penley is a New Testament scholar and former Bible professor at the college and seminary level. Paul writes books to share academic research insights which redefine our understanding of the Bible, but normally get lost in technical journals at graduate libraries. He loves seeing readers freed from the misdirection and disillusionment caused by bad Bible interpretation. Dr. Penley studied Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic on his journey to better understanding Scripture in undergraduate and post-graduate degrees. He studied biblical history on site in Israel, Egypt, Turkey and Greece and then picked up German and French while completing a Ph.D. from Trinity's Divinity School. He has presented his original biblical and historical research in college courses and national scholars' meetings, at Shabbat school and church retreats, at Bible conference centers and small groups.

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Catherine McNiel is a chaplain, author, editor, and speaker. She lives in the Chicagoland area with her husband, three children, and one enormous garden. Her previous books include Fearing Bravely, All Shall Be Well, and Long Days of Small Things, which was an ECPA finalist for New Author.

Jason Hague is the associate pastor of Christ's Center Church near Eugene, Oregon, and the author of Aching Joy: Following God Through the Land of Unanswered Prayer. His writing has appeared in Christianity Today, Focus on the Family, and Fathom. He and his wife have five children.

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Shannon T.L. Kearns is a transgender man who believes in the transformative power of story. He is an ordained priest, writer, and theologian whose work revolves around making meaning. He is also a sought-after speaker on transgender issues and religion, as well as a skilled workshop facilitator. Kearns' work with Brian G. Murphy at QueerTheology.com, which he co-founded, has reached more than a million people all over the world through videos, articles, and online courses.

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Lee C. Camp is an award-winning teacher and Professor of Theology & Ethics at Lipscomb University in Nashville, Tennessee. Lee is also the host of No Small Endeavor – an acclaimed podcast series exploring the habits, practices, and dispositions that facilitate human flourishing, a.k.a. the good life. He is the author of several books, including Scandalous Witness: A Little Political Manifesto for Christians.

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Additional notes:

• The Kairos Palestine document (creative non-violent resistance)
• Munther Isaac on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter
• Christ at the Checkpoint (Youtube channel)
• Across the Divide Podcast



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Andrew Root is the Carrie Olson Baalson Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary. He is the author of more than 20 books and hosts the influential When Church Stops Working podcast. 

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D.T. (Danny) Bryant serves as a priest at St. Mary of Bethany Parish, as a Spiritual Director with The Center for Hope and Healing, and as Athletic Director at Independence Academy in middle Tennessee. He is also a co-founder of the Black Mental Health Counselor Reparations Foundation (bmhcr.org). Daniel is passionate about seeking practical, just, and merciful healing in the world and enjoys life with his wife and four children.

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Mariko Clark is a Japanese American author, mother, and storyteller on a mission to help kids embrace diversity and wonder. Her time as an editor at National Geographic Learning sharpened her ability to make complex topics accessible and engaging. She equips kids and caregivers with spiritual resources to navigate the messy middle, wrestle with tough questions, and find community in the journey. Mariko lives outside of Indianapolis with her husband and three sweet and spicy kids.

Additional notes:

• Mariko mentioned the concept of "windows, mirrors, and sliding-glass doors”' in children’s literature, originated by Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop. Here’s a short clip of Dr. Bishop explaining the importance of diversity in literature for all children, regardless of race.
• Michelle Eastman (@disabilitytheology) was the resident Disability theologian for The Book of Belonging. To learn more, Michelle recommends A Healing Homiletic by Kathy Black, The Disabled God by Nancy L. Eiesland and The Bible and Disability, ed. Melcher, Parsons, & Yong. My Body is Not a Prayer Request by Dr. Amy Kenny is a more accessible resource that touches on a lot of the same information.
• Mariko and The Book of Belonging's illustrator, Rachel Eleanor, also offer The Belonging Workshop on Substack. The Belonging Workshop is a weekly Sabbath resource that provides sacred rhythms for folks in liminal faith spaces, with offerings that are a mix of explicitly religious practices as well as mindful and somatic practices, visual resources, and a kind and curious community.

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Thomas Jay Oord is a theologian, philosopher, and scholar of multi-disciplinary studies. Oord is a best-selling and award-winning author, having written or edited more than thirty books. Academic Influence ranks him among the most influential theologians in the 21st century. Oord directs doctoral programs at Northwind Theological Seminary and directs the Center for Open and Relational Theology. He is known for his research and writing on love, open and relational theology, science and religion, evil and power, and the implications of freedom and relationships for transformation.

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We talked with internationally recognized psychologist Diane Langberg about coming face to face with the crushing trauma of sexual abuse, trafficking, domestic abuse, and rape—and its cover-up, all tragically encountered within Christian communities and the church. In her book, When the Church Harms God’s People, Langberg unveils what she has learned about how churches cause harm and why Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God’s people.

Diane Langberg (PhD, Temple University) is an internationally recognized psychologist with more than 50 years of experience. She chaired the advisory board of the American Association of Christian Counselors until 2021 and cofounded the Global Trauma Recovery Institute, which trains therapists to assist trauma victims across the world. She is the founder of Langberg, Monroe and Associates, which provides counseling services in Jenkintown, Pennsylvania, and consults with Christian organizations around the world. Langberg is the author of seven books, including Redeeming Power. Her books have been translated into 10 languages.

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Rev. Brandan Robertson is an author, activist, and theologian known as the "TikTok Pastor." He hosts the Faith for the Rest of Us podcast and has authored or contributed to 26 books, including the INDIES Book of the Year finalist, True Inclusion. His work appears in TIME, The Huffington Post, and The Washington Post. Named in Rolling Stone's 2021 "Hot List," he speaks at venues like The White House and Oxford University and is a champion for LGBTQ+ rights. He is pursuing a PhD in Biblical Studies at Drew University.

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Jeff Mikels holds degrees from Wheaton College and Denver Seminary. He has over 20 years of pastoral experience, leading a church in Chicago for five years before planting one in Lafayette, IN. There, he was involved in the Pastors' Alliance; he also helped establish the Greater Lafayette Gospel Association, which is a network of gospel-focused ministries, and served as its president.

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Kevin Sweeney is the author of two other books, The Making of a Mystic and The Joy of Letting Go. He is also chaplain for hospice care, and currently lives in Honolulu with his wife, Christine, and their two kids, True and Mikayla.

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Adam Young is a trauma therapist and the host of The Place We Find Ourselves podcast. He is a licensed clinical social worker with masters degrees in social work and divinity. Adam regularly speaks at conferences and currently serves as an instructor and facilitator with the Allender Center in addition to his private practice. He lives in Fort Collins, Colorado with his wife and two children. You can connect with Adam and his work at adamyoungcounseling.com.

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Sheila Wray Gregoire is an author, podcaster, and sought-after speaker who is passionate about changing the evangelical conversation about sex and marriage to line up with kingdom principles. Sheila is the host of the Bare Marriage Podcast and has written several books including The Great Sex Rescue and She Deserves Better: Raising Girls to Resist Toxic Teachings on Sex, Self, and Speaking Up. Sheila and her husband Keith live in Ontario, Canada.

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Dr. Emily Hunter McGowin is Associate Professor of Theology at Wheaton College. She is the author of Quivering Families (2018), Christmas (2023), and Households of Faith: Practicing Family in the Kingdom of God (2025), a practical theology of family framed by the church and the kingdom of God. Dr. McGowin and her husband, Ron, also a priest, live in Chicago with their three children. 

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Stephen D. Morrison is a prolific American writer probably best known for his ongoing, mulit-volume "in Plain English" Series (as in: Karl Barth in Plain English). He's an ecumenical theologian drawing inspiration from Karl Barth, T. F. Torrance, Jürgen Moltmann, and James Cone among others. Recently he's been writing about political theology and joins us to day to talk about his book All Riches Come From Injustice: The Anti-Mammon Witness of the Early Church & Its Anti-capitalist Relevance.

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Thomas Jay Oord is a theologian, philosopher, and scholar of multi-disciplinary studies. Oord is a best-selling and award-winning author, having written or edited more than thirty books. Academic Influence ranks him among the most influential theologians in the 21st century. Oord directs doctoral programs at Northwind Theological Seminary and directs the Center for Open and Relational Theology. He is known for his research and writing on love, open and relational theology, science and religion, evil and power, and the implications of freedom and relationships for transformation.

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Cheryl Miller has worked in mediation, restorative justice, and community development for over two decades. An experienced nonprofit leader, she is also the founder of Quantum Circles Consulting and Training, an organization that equips community groups to address homelessness, economic development, restoration, and reconciliation. You can connect with Cheryl and her work on her website.

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Dr. Andrew J. Bauman is the founder and director of the Christian Counseling Center: For Sexual Health & Trauma (CCC) and a licensed mental health counselor. A former pastor, Andrew now works with men and women to bring healing and wholeness to their sexual and spiritual lives. His mission is to use his unique position to elevate women's voices and expose a disease that desperately needs to be removed from the church's body. you can connect with Andrew and his work on his website.

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Foley's new book The Anti-Greed Gospel: Why the Love of Money Is the Root of Racism and How the Church Can Create a New Way Forward explores how the desire for power and money causes violence and exploitation, rooted in racial ideology as its justification.

Malcom Foley is a pastor, historian, and speaker who serves as special adviser to the president for equity and campus engagement at Baylor University. He has written for Christianity Today, The Anxious Bench, and Mere Orthodoxy. Foley co-pastors Mosaic Waco, a multicultural church in Waco, TX, where he lives with his wife Desiree.

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Jonathan is the partner of one and father of three, founder of lovehaiti.org, podcaster, and award-winning author with some degrees in open and relational theology who loves to hike. You can connect with Jonathan and his work at jonathanfosteronline.com.

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Marc's new book Walking Otherward is a forty-day devotional (just in time for Lent!) that follows the Gospel texts of Jesus' final weeks before his crucifixion. Each entry invites you to try on Jesus' attitude, setting aside self-centered, ego-defending ambition in exchange for other-centered, co-suffering love.

Marc Alan Schelske writes at the intersection of grace and growth. He hosts the Apprenticeship Way podcast and writes books about the inner life and the other-centered, co-suffering way of Jesus. He serves as the pastor of Bridge City Community Church and lives in Portland, Oregon. You can find out more about him and his work at marcalanschelske.com.

We've talked with Marc a couple times before on the podcast:

• Cultivating Spiritual Growth Through Journaling
• What Emotions Are For in the Life of the Leader

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Liz Charlotte Grant is an award-winning writer whose work has been published in The Revealer, Sojourners, Brevity, Christian Century, Christianity Today, Hippocampus, Religion News Service, US Catholic, Huffington Post, and elsewhere. Her essays have twice won a Jacques Maritain Nonfiction Prize. She also writes The Empathy List, a popular newsletter that has been nominated for a Webby two years running and garnered an honorable mention from the Associated Church Press Awards in 2023. Knock at the Sky: Seeking God in Genesis after Losing Faith in the Bible is her first book.

You can connect with Liz and her work on her website, and subscribe to her newsletter The Empathy List here.

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Show notes:

• Mako Nagasawa: Thinking More Clearly About Abortion
• On How I Left White Evangelicalism and How it Left Me
• Redefining the History and Historiography on American Evangelicalism in the Era of the Religious Right
• My Comments Last Night at the "Evangelicals for Harris" Online Event
• Trump has changed what it means to be evangelical

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Show notes:

• Mako Nagasawa: Thinking More Clearly About Abortion
• On How I Left White Evangelicalism and How it Left Me
• Redefining the History and Historiography on American Evangelicalism in the Era of the Religious Right
• My Comments Last Night at the "Evangelicals for Harris" Online Event
• Trump has changed what it means to be evangelical

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Show notes:

• On How I Left White Evangelicalism and How it Left Me
• Redefining the History and Historiography on American Evangelicalism in the Era of the Religious Right
• My Comments Last Night at the "Evangelicals for Harris" Online Event
• Trump has changed what it means to be evangelical

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1. Stay awake. Don’t numb your longing for the world to be made right.
2. Keep caring for one another.
3. Keep telling the truth about systems of injustice and evil.
4. Refuse contempt - don't let them get you to hate them.
5. Learn from the great cloud of witnesses.
6. Learn to organize in solidarity with the marginalized.
7. Learn to notice God at work in your ordinary life.
8. Get as healthy as you can so you’re not triggered into harmful ways of relating.

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1. Stay awake. Don’t numb your longing for the world to be made right.
2. Keep caring for one another.
3. Keep telling the truth about systems of injustice and evil.
4. Refuse contempt - don't let them get you to hate them.
5. Learn from the great cloud of witnesses.
6. Learn to organize in solidarity with the marginalized.
7. Learn to notice God at work in your ordinary life.
8. Get as healthy as you can so you’re not triggered into harmful ways of relating.

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Show Notes:

• Matt Tebbe on the Liminal Living Podcast
• Sheryllin Ifill's article on practical ways to respond to the election.

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Thomas Jay Oord is a theologian, philosopher, and scholar of multi-disciplinary studies. Oord is a best-selling and award-winning author, having written or edited more than thirty books. Academic Influence ranks him among the most influential theologians in the 21st century. Oord directs doctoral programs at Northwind Theological Seminary and directs the Center for Open and Relational Theology. He is known for his research and writing on love, open and relational theology, science and religion, evil and power, and the implications of freedom and relationships for transformation. You can connect with Tom and his work on his website.

Show notes:

The name of the person we couldn't think of at the end of the podcast is Bridget Eileen Rivera, who wrote Heavy Burdens: Seven Ways LGBTQ Christians Experience Harm in the Church. We interviewed her in 2021.

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Matt is joined by:

• Juliet Liu, pastor at Life on the Vine Christian Community Long Grove, IL
• Timothy McCain, pastor and evangelist based in Deltona, FL
• Mac McCarthy, pastor at Crosspoint Communty Church in Oconomowoc, WI
• Seth Richardson, Director of Resurrection Little Rock, a contemplative community in Little Rock, AR

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Timothy's new book is Honest Conversations: Talking to Understand; Not to Win, which explores how to have conversations across differences in culture, experience, and lifestyle. Whether you want to learn more about someone's culture as you share a meal or have a more intense conversation about racism and other injustices, this book will give you tools to help.

Pastor Timothy McCain is a sought out evangelist, mentor, motivational speaker, life coach, and author of Crowns are Greater than Trophies, This Is Your Chance Book, and Use Your Jab. You can connect with Timothy and his work on his website.

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Jacob L. Wright is Associate Professor of Hebrew Bible at the Candler School of Theology, Emory University. His first book, Rebuilding Identity: The Nehemiah Memoir and its Earliest Readers (de Gruyter, 2004), won the 2008 Templeton prize for a first book in the field of religion. He is also the author of David, King of Israel, and Caleb in Biblical Memory (Cambridge University Press, 2014), which won The Nancy Lapp Popular Book Award from the American Schools of Oriental Research, and most recently, War, Memory, and National Identity in the Hebrew Bible (Cambridge University Press, 2020).

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Rev. Joel A. Bowman, Sr. is a native of Detroit, Michigan, and has been in ministry for 29 years. He is the founder and senior pastor of the Temple of Faith Baptist Church, in Louisville, Kentucky, and a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, working with military veterans.Currently, Joel is a therapist with the U. S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA), providing mental health treatment to America’s military Veterans.

Joel is a seminar facilitator, freelance writer, poet, and thought leader in the areas of racism and racial trauma. His work has been published in numerous places, including the Louisville Courier-Journal, The Front Porch, The Witness, Three-Fifths Magazine, and Baptist News Global. Joel is married to Nannette Mitchell Bowman, and they have 3 children: Kayla, Katie, and Joel, Jr.

It should be noted that all perspectives expressed herein are Joel’s and do not reflect, in any way, the views of any other organization or federal entity.

You can connect with Joel and his work on his website.

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Emily's book How to Walk Into a Room: The Art of Knowing When to Stay and When to Walk Away helps us begin to uncover the silent, nuanced, and hidden arrows for anyone asking questions like: How do I know if it's time to move on? What if I stay and nothing changes? What if I leave and everything falls apart? How to Walk into a Room is one of the best five books on religion according to Publishers Weekly, on the New Yorker's Best of 2023 list, and the Winner of the PROSE Award from the Association of American Publishers.

Emily P. Freeman is the Wall St. Journal bestselling author of 5 books, including The Next Right Thing. As a spiritual director, workshop leader, and host of The Next Right Thing podcast, her most important work is to help create soul space and offer spiritual companionship and discernment for anyone struggling with decision fatigue. Emily holds a master's degree in spiritual formation and leadership from Friends University.

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Chuck DeGroat is a professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, where he also serves as the founding executive director of the clinical mental health counseling program. He is a licensed therapist, spiritual director, author, retreat leader speaker, and faculty member with the Soul Care Institute. As a therapist, he specializes in navigating issues of abuse and trauma, pastoral (and leadership) health, and doubt and dark nights on the faith journey. He trains clergy in handling issues of abuse and trauma, conducts pastor and planter assessments, and facilitates church consultations and investigations of abuse. Before transitioning to training and forming pastors, Chuck served as a pastor in Orlando and San Francisco. He and his wife, Sara, have been married for 30 years and have two adult daughters.

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Grace Ji-Sun Kim (PhD, University of Toronto) is professor of theology at Earlham School of Religion in Richmond, Indiana. She is the host of the Madang podcast and has published in TIME, Huffington Post, US Catholic, and The Nation. She is an ordained PC(USA) minister and enjoys being a guest preacher on most Sundays. Her many books include Invisible, Reimagining Spirit, and Healing Our Broken Humanity. She and her spouse, Perry, have three young adult children and live in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

You can connect with Grace and her work on her website, her podcast Madang, and her Substack newsletter.

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Chris Morris is a writer and an advocate for the mental health community who is passionate about redefining normal and building hope in the face of chronic illness and special needs. He is the author of three books, and his articles have appeared in numerous media outlets, including Fathom magazine, Stigma Fighters, Crosswalk, and The Mighty. Learn more at ChrisMorrisWrites.com.

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Rev. Dr. David P. Gushee is Distinguished University Professor of Christian Ethics at Mercer University, and Chair of Christian Social Ethics at Vrije Universiteit (“Free University”) Amsterdam, and Senior Research Fellow, International Baptist Theological Study Centre.

Gushee is the elected Past-President of both the American Academy of Religion and the Society of Christian Ethics, signaling his role as one of America's leading Christian ethicists. He is the author, co-author, editor, or co-editor of more than 28 books, and has had a global impact in the field of Christian ethics. A leader in the growing post-evangelical movement, he has also put feet to his faith in several activist campaigns.

David and his wife Jeanie live in Atlanta. He is a classic novel reader, world traveler, and tennis player, and awaits a call from his beloved Atlanta Braves to resume the baseball career he abandoned in college.

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Joshua Patterson is the founder and host of the (Re)thinking Faith Podcast. He is an independent theologian with a love for Process-Relational thought, Radical Theology, and the Mystics. When not reading or podcasting, Josh enjoys playing ice hockey and spending time with his friends and family.

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Today we talk about "faith" - what does Paul actually mean when he talks about faith? What does it mean for us to have faith?

Jon DePue is a graduate of Duke Divinity School and has served churches as director of Christian education for several years. He currently works as a learning community support specialist for Indianapolis Public Schools.

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Tripp Fuller likes the LA Lakers, beer camps, Illia Delio, the Church, philosophy, Battlestar Galactica and LOTR, podcasting, writing, and Jesus, most likely not but maybe in that order. He's the host of the acclaimed podcast Homebrewed Christianity, and uses his PhD in Philosophy, Religion and Theology at Luther Seminary where he's a visiting professor of theology.

Join us at Theology Beer Camp Oct 17-19, 2024

Matt and Ben will be in Denver Oct 17-19, 2024 for THEOLOGY BEER CAMP, and they'd love to see you there, too! Register using our code GRAVITYHOBBIT to get $50 off registration. Keynote speakers include Brian McLaren, Ilia Delio, and Diana Butler Bass. Register at this link, and make sure to use our code GRAVITYHOBBIT to get $50 off.

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Khristi Lauren Adams is an author, speaker, and youth advocate. Khristi works as Dean of Spiritual Life & Diversity, Equity & Inclusion at the Hill School and is an instructor of Religious Studies. She is a graduate of Temple University and Princeton Theological Seminary where she obtained a Master of Divinity degree. Khristi is the former founder and director of the Becoming Conference, designed to empower, educate, and inspire Black girls between the ages of 12-16. She currently sits on the Board of Advisors for Leadership LINKS, Inc, a leadership education organization that equips Black girls to become changemakers. She is a 2017 graduate of “Lead New Jersey”, a select group of thought-leaders from the public, social, and private sectors of NJ and the surrounding communities. She also currently serves as a mentor for The Garden Initiative for Black Women’s Religious Activism, a nine-month peer-to-peer and intergenerational mentorship program for black women leaders across religious traditions in the United States.

You can connect with Khristi and her work on her website: khristilaurenadams.com.

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Dr. Hillary McBride is a registered psychologist, a researcher, and podcastor, with expertise that includes working with trauma and trauma therapies, embodiment, at the intersection of spirituality and mental health. Her first book, Mothers, Daughters, and Body Image: Learning to Love Ourselves as We Are, was published in 2017; she was the senior editor of the textbook Embodiment and Eating Disorders: Theory, Research, Prevention, and Treatment, which was published in 2018. Her bestselling book The Wisdom of Your Body: Finding wholeness, healing and connection through embodied living came out in the fall of 2021, and in January she released Practices for Embodied Living. Her next book Holy Hurt: understanding and healing from spiritual trauma, comes out April 2025. She has been recognized by the American Psychological Association, and the Canadian Psychological Association for her research and clinical work. In addition to being a teaching faculty at Trinity Western University, she is an ambassador for Sanctuary Mental Health, and the host of CBC's award winning podcast Other People's Problems. Hillary makes her home in the pacific northwest in British Columbia, Canada.

You can connect with Hillary and her work via her website: www.hillarylmcbride.com. You can also find her on Instagram.

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Jenai Auman is a Filipina American writer and artist. She draws from her years in church leadership as well as her trauma-informed training to write on healing, hope, and the way forward. She is passionate about providing language so readers can find a faith that frees. She received her bachelor's degree in behavioral health science and is currently pursuing a master's in spiritual formation at Northeastern Seminary. Jenai lives in Houston, Texas, with her husband, Tyler, and their sons, Quinn and Graham.

You can connect with Jenai and find out more about her work on her website.

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Today we talk about the "wrath of God," especially at it appears in Romans. What does Paul mean when he talks about the "wrath of God" and how does it function in his theology and proclamation of the gospel of Jesus? How can we recover from the wrong uses of God's wrath? How should we think and talk and preach about "the wrath of God" today?

Jon DePue is a graduate of Duke Divinity School and has served churches as director of Christian education for several years. He currently works as a learning community support specialist for Indianapolis Public Schools.

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Our conversation with Army veteran and Episcopal priest David Peters helps us see the good news that Jesus was born and died in a traumatized world, and his story speaks forever to wounded people worldwide.

Peters' book Post-Traumatic Jesus: Reading the Gospel with the Wounded explores Jesus' life story through the post-traumatic lens with which the Gospel writers first wrote it--as people who had seen their leader executed by the same oppressive government that had already shrouded their whole lives in anxiety and fear. Meeting the post-traumatic Jesus--the only Jesus the world has ever known--can be a balm to the wounds of modern Christians and spiritual seekers.

David W. Peters served as an enlisted Marine and Army Chaplain, who deployed to Iraq in 2005. He is the author of several books, notably Death Letter: God, Sex and War and Post-Traumatic God: How the Church Cares for People Who Have Been to Hell and Back, and Post-Traumatic Jesus: Reading the Gospel with the Wounded. Today he serves as the vicar of St. Joan of Arc Episcopal Church in Austin, Texas.

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Beau Underwood is the senior minister at Allisonville Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in Indianapolis, a contributing editor for Word&Way, and is pursuing a doctorate in public affairs. He has graduate degrees from the University of Chicago in both religion and public policy. His writing as appeared in Sojourners, The Christian Century, and Religion and Politics.

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The Book Club will be a weekly discussion on Fridays at 12pm ET starting August 2, 2024 (recordings available to all members). To participate, get yourself a paid membership to the Gravity Community.

Joel Looper teaches at Baylor University where he serves as coordinator for Shalom Mission Communities, a network of international Christian communities. He's the author of Bonhoeffer's America: A Land Without Reformation and the book we talked about on this episode Another Gospel: Christian Nationalism and the Crisis of Evangelical Identity.

Show notes:

• The article we referenced about the Texas school board member who disavowed the far-right platform she campaigned on: "A GOP Texas school board member campaigned against schools indoctrinating kids. Then she read the curriculum."

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Andrew Rillera is Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies and Theology at The King's University in Edmonton, Alberta, in Canada.

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Meredith Miller is a pastor and a parent who has spent most of the past twenty years helping families follow Jesus. She has been involved with Fuller Youth Institute since 2007 and from 2014-2019 she was Curriculum Director for the children's ministry at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago, Illinois. Meredith holds a Master of Divinity degree from Fuller Theological Seminary, as well as a B.A. in Religious Studies and Spanish Language & Literature from Westmont College. She is pastor of Pomona Valley Church and calls Southern California home.

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Sam Jolman is a professional therapist with over 20 years of experience specializing in men’s issues and sexual trauma recovery. He seeks to help men and women heal, know their stories and find greater sexual wholeness and aliveness. He received his master’s in counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and was future trained in Narrative Trauma car through the Allender Center at the Seattle School of Theology and psychology. Sam lives in Colorado with his wife an three sons. Together they enjoy exploring the best camping spots in a pop-up camper. Sam goes to therapy, loves fly fishing and can often be found trying to catch his breath on the floor of his local CrossFit Gym.

You can connect with Sam's work by subscribing to his Substack newsletter, and you can get his free e-book on how to give a sex talk by ordering his book and connecting on his website.

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Lee C. Camp is an award-winning teacher and Professor of Theology & Ethics at Lipscomb University in Nashville, Tennessee. Lee is also the host of No Small Endeavor - an acclaimed podcast series exploring the habits, practices, and dispositions that facilitate human flourishing, a.k.a. the good life.

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Elizabeth Oldfield hosts The Sacred, a podcast about our deepest values, the stories that shape us, and how we can build empathy and understanding between people who are very different. She has a regular column for UnHerd and has appeared on BBC One, Radio 5Live, Radio 4, and The World Service. Her work has appeared in The Financial Times, Prospect, The Times, CNN, The Guardian, and beyond. Oldfield is also a contributing editor at Comment magazine, a guest lecturer at the University of Birmingham, and former director and now senior fellow at Theos, the UK's leading religion and society think tank. She lives in London, England.

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Terra's book Hopeful Lament: Tending Our Grief Through Spiritual Practices makes space for the powerful act of crying out before a loving God and offers provoking reflection questions, embodied practices, and applications for families with children. Learn how to journey gently through suffering.

Terra McDaniel is a spiritual director for adults and children. She spent two decades as a pastor and ministry leader and earned her MDiv at Portland Seminary. McDaniel wrote More Than Ordinary with Doug Sherman and is a regular contributor to the Companioning Center blog. She lives with her husband in Austin, Texas, with her twin grandchildren nearby.

You can connect with her and her work on her website.

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1. equate deconstruction with de-conversion,
2. say people deconstruct so they can sin,
3. say people deconstruct to 'be cool or hip or trendy or for street cred',
4. criticize 'giving up' on the local church, and
5. blame deconstruction on bad teaching.

Matt received a response from Aaron Gardner, a friend who is right in the middle of a painful deconstruction process, and we decided to record a podcast conversation about what it's actually like to be right in the middle of deconstruction.

You can connect with Aaron on his Facebook page for further conversation.

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On one hand, Paul usually talks about a participatory, transformational good news full of freedom, resurrection, love, and being ‘in Christ’. On the other hand, about 10% of the time Paul’s language speaks of retribution, punitive justice, and a conditional transaction at the cross. What to make of this disjunction in Paul’s thought?

Jon Depue joins us for a provocative conversation seeking a way through this quagmire that has consistently confounded Christians for many years. Making use of historical backgrounds and utilizing a close reading of Paul’s rhetoric and argument in the book of Romans, Doug and Jon propose a compelling and unifying way forward to a clear articulation of Paul’s Gospel.

Jon DePue is a graduate of Duke Divinity School and has served churches as director of Christian education for several years. He currently works as a learning community support specialist for Indianapolis Public Schools.

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Professor and author Scott Coley helps us understand how evangelicalism became fused with right-wing politics and now presses evangelical theology into the service of authoritarian politics, which he outlines in his new book Ministers of Propaganda: Truth, Power, and the Ideology of the Religious Right.

Scott M. Coley is a lecturer in philosophy at Mount St. Mary's University. His research interests include philosophy of religion, moral epistemology, and political philosophy.

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Rabbi Shai Held--philosopher, theologian, and Bible scholar--is President and Dean at the Hadar Institute. He received the prestigious Covenant Award for Excellence in Jewish Education, and has been named multiple times by Newsweek as one of the fifty most influential rabbis in America and by the Jewish Daily Forward as one of the fifty most prominent Jews in the world. Rabbi Held is the author of several books, and is the host of Hadar's newest podcast, Answers WithHeld.

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Susannah Griffith (PhD, Vanderbilt University) is an independent scholar whose work focuses on the intersection of biblical studies and trauma. She is also a licensed minister of the Mennonite Church USA, a role she embodies to advocate and care for the marginalized outside the walls of the church. Her first book, Leaving Silence, was a Christianity Today Book Award finalist for Christian discipleship. Griffith resides in Northern Indiana with her husband and three young daughters.

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Elesha J. Coffman (PhD, Duke University) is associate professor of history at Baylor University in Waco, Texas. She previously served as the editor of Christian History magazine and has taught at the University of Dubuque Theological Seminary. She spent a year as a fellow at the Center for the Study of Religion at Princeton University. Coffman is the author of The Christian Century and the Rise of the Protestant Mainline, Margaret Mead: A Twentieth-Century Faith, and numerous articles on American religious history.

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Ryan Post is the lead pastor of Village Church in Burbank, CA and the author of Healthy Prayer: Integrating Structure, Silence, and Spontaneity and the book we talked about in this converastion, Jesus People: Communities Formed by The Beatitudes.

You can connect with Ryan and his work at ryanpost.com.

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JUST DISCIPLESHIP BOOK GIVEAWAY: In partnership with IVP, we are giving away two copies of Michael Rhodes' book Just Discipleship. Go to gravitycommons.com/justdiscipleship to register.

Michael J. Rhodes (PhD, Trinity College/University of Aberdeen) is the lecturer in Old Testament at Carey Baptist College. He is the author of Formative Feasting: Practices and Virtue Ethics in Deuteronomy's Tithe Meal and the Corinthian Lord's Supper; Practicing the King's Economy: Honoring Jesus in the Way We Work, Earn, Spend, Save, and Give (with Brian Fikkert and Robby Holt); and numerous articles in popular outlets such as Christianity Today and The Biblical Mind. Rhodes has spent more than fourteen years involved in community development and urban ministry work, and is an ordained pastor in the Evangelical Presbyterian Church. He currently lives in Auckland, New Zealand with his wife, Rebecca, and their four children.

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Ryan Stollar is a child-liberation theologian and an advocate for children and abuse survivors. He holds an MHS in child protection from Nova Southeastern University and an MA in Eastern classics from St. John's College.

You can connect with Ryan and his work on his website rlstollar.com.

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Trey Ferguson is a minister, writer, and speaker, with an M.Div from the Samuel DeWitt Proctor School of Theology at Virginia Union University. You can find him podcasting on Three Black Men: Theology, Culture, and the world around us and New Living Treyslation, writing in The Son Do Move newsletter and Substack, and tweeting (@pastortrey05 on the social media platform formally known as Twitter). He lives in South FL with his wife and three children.

You can connect with him and his work on his website pastortrey05.com.

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Pete Enns is the Abram S. Clemens Professor of Biblical Studies at Eastern University, and the host of The Bible for Normal People podcast. He is the author of The Sin of Certainty, The Bible Tells Me So, Inspiration and Incarnation, and the book we're mostly chatting about two of his latest books today today, How the Bible Actually Works and Curveball: When Your Faith Takes Turns You never Saw Coming.

You can connect with Pete and his work at thebiblefornormalpeople.com.

Show Notes:

• Resident Alien (TV Series)
• How to Practice Digital Minimalism

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Lamar Hardwick is the lead pastor of Tri-Cities Church in ATL, GA, and the author of Disability in the Church: A Vision for Diversity and Inclusion. He is a grad of Yale Divinity School Clergy Scholar Program and a 2017 grad of Georgia Forward's Young Gamechangers program. He's written for the Huffington Post and BioLogos, regularly writing and speaking on disability inclusion in the church.

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Angela Herrington is a Lark's Song Certified Life Coach and hods a BA in biblical studies from Indiana Weslyan and an MA in leadership from Wesley Seminary. She helps those deconstructing their faith heal from their religious trauma and cultivate healthy spirituality.

You can connect with Angela and her work on her website: angelajherrington.com.

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Terry M. Wildman (Ojibwe and Yaqui) is the lead translator, general editor, and project manager of the First Nations Version. He serves as the director of spiritual growth and leadership development for Native InterVarsity. He is also the founder of Rain Ministries and has previously served as a pastor and worship leader. He and his wife, Darlene, live in Arizona.

Show Notes:

• How to Fast For Lent: A Practical Guide
• "Rooted in Abundance": article that refers to the First Nations Version
• Sign up for Terry's newsletter at firstnationsversion.com
• First Nations Version Project Facebook page

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In his book Testimony: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Failed a Generation, Ward tells the engaging story of his upbringing in, and eventual break from, an influential evangelical church in the 1980s and 1990s. Ward sheds light on the evangelical movement's troubling political and cultural dimensions, tracing the ways in which the Jesus People movement was seduced by materialism and other factors to become politically captive rather than prophetic.

Jon Ward is the chief national correspondent for Yahoo News. He has covered American politics and culture for two decades, including as a white House correspondent traveling aboard Air Force One and as a national affairs correspondent writing about two presidential campaigns. He is the author of Camelot's End: Kennedy vs. Carter and the Fight that Broke the Democratic Party and hosts The Long Game podcast. Ward has written for the Washington Post, the New Republic, Politico, Vanity Fair, HuffPost, and the Washington Times, and lives in D.C.

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Kathy Khang is a writer, speaker, and yoga teacher. She's contributed to More than Serving Tea and Voices of Lament, as well as the author of Raise Your Voice.

Matt Mikalatos is an author, screenwriter, and speaker. He's the author of Journey to Love and the YA fantasy series The Sunlit Lands. He has written for Today.com, TIME Magazine, Relevant, Nature, Writer's Digest, and Daily Science Fiction. 

Kathy and Matt co-host The Fascinating Podcast together.

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Show notes:

Here are Naomi's comments in full:

"Hey all - I’m just in the middle of the Christmas episode and the shame chat. I’ve done so much thinking about shame in the past 18mths or so. I also agree there is a form of shame that is healthy, which is different to guilt. I think guilt is linked to rules - I did something wrong that broke a societal rule. You can feel guilt outside of a relational context, because it is about our social rules. But shame is about broken relationships. Toxic shame says, “I am a bad person and am worthy of being expelled from the group, if people saw the true me they would reject me.” Healthy shame is about recognising that my actions can break relationships and hurt people, and therefore (hopefully) keeps me from doing those things. Part of our problem, I think, is that we haven’t learnt how to repair damage we do to others, so we fear our shame will lead to permanently broken relationships. My understanding is that in honour shame cultures this is more codified, so there are clear ways to restore honour if relationships are damaged. Thoughts?

"Eg. I feel guilty that I ate an extra cookie. I broke a perceived rule, but no one else is hurt. I may also feel some (toxic) shame about my weight because I believe it makes me somehow unacceptable and an object of judgement from others. I feel a combo of (healthy) shame and guilt when I yell at my kids, because it both breaks one of my parenting rules but I also see that as an abuse of my power and damaging to our relationship, but I know how to repair it. If I didn’t (yet) understand that, a friend may need to help me recognise my actions as “shameful”, hopefully without exiling me from the community. But if it was severe and I was unrepentant, then that may be necessary for the safety of others. 

"Also, if my yelling at my kids is unchecked, they are likely to internalise toxic shame. I think often our toxic shame comes from someone else being shameless, and the shame therefore ends up on the wrong person (ie on the one with less power). Because it wasn’t theirs in the first place, there is no way back for them, other than putting the shame back to me, it’s rightful 'owner'."

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Show notes:

• Read the article online: Why We Changed Our Name to Gravity Commons
• Join the Gravity Community.

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Julie Faith Parker lives in NYC where she is a visiting scholar at Union Theological Seminary and biblical scholar in residence at Marble Collegiate Church. She has taught biblical studies at General Theological Seminary, Trinity Lutheran Seminary, and also at NY Theological Seminary, where her students were incarcerated in Sing Sing Prison.

Show notes:

Here's the article we mentioned in the introduction (Chris Green, prompted by a conversation between Bono and Franklin Graham, posts a conversation between Rowan Williams and Philip Pullman on what makes art art and what makes art Christian:

You Can't Actually Show the Resurrection

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Cheryl Bridges Johns is a pastor and theologian who has taught collee and seminary students for over 40 years. She is visiting professor and director of the Pentecostal House of Studies at United Theological Seminary and previously taught at Pentecostal Theological Seminary and is past president of the Society for Pentecostal Studies.

You can connect with her and her work on her bio page.

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Robyn Whitaker is Associate Professor of New Testament Studies at Pilgrim Theological College and the University of Divinity in Melbourne Australia.

She co-hosts the By the Well podcast, and is the author of the book we talked with her about, Even the Devil Quotes Scripture: Reading the Bible on Its Own Terms.

You can connect with Robyn and her work on her website.

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Rev. Dr. Miguel A. De La Torre, Professor of Social Ethics and Latinx Studies at the Iliff School of Theology in Denver, Colorado. He has served as the elected 2012 President of the Society of Christian Ethics and served as the Executive Officer for the Society of Race, Ethnicity and Religion (2012-17). Dr. De La Torre is a recognized international Fulbright scholar who has taught courses and lectured around the world. In 2020, the American Academy of Religion bestowed on him the Excellence in Teaching Award. The following year, 2021, the American Academy also conferred upon him the Martin E. Marty Public Understanding of Religion Award. De La Torre is the first scholar to receive the two most prestigious awards presented by his guild and the first Latinx to receive either one of them.

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We talk with Zack Hunt about these topics, which he covers in his book Godbreathed: What It Really Means For the Bible To Be Inspired.

Zack Hunt graduated from Trevecca Nazarene University with an undergraduate double major in Religion and History. He also holds a graduate degree in Theology as well as an additional graduate degree in Christian History from Yale Divinity School. He's appeared in Rolling Stone, The Boston Globe, Huff Post, and wrote a book narrating his faith deconstruction vis a vis the book of Revelation entitled Unraptured. He's interested in the intersection of faith and politics, and smoking BBQ.

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Here's a link to Matt's original sermon, if you'd like to listen:

Rizpah, David, And The Good Work Of Shame To Oppose Injustice

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Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg is author of numerous books, including On Repentance and Repair: Making Amends in an Unapologetic World--winner of the National Jewish Book Award, and American Library Association's Honor Medal, and hailed by Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley as “A must read for anyone navigating the work of justice and healing.” She serves as Scholar in Residence at National Council of Jewish Women (NCJW).

You can subscribe to her Substack newsletter here.

Karen Keen joins us to talk about how we got the Bible, why that matters, and how history shows us that Scripture can be used for both life-giving and destructive purposes. Karen's book The Word of a Humble God: The Origins, Inspiration, and Interpretation of Scripture, helps readers to discover the Bible’s origins, which makes all the difference for fostering redemptive interpretation of Scripture.

Karen R. Keen is a biblical scholar, author, and spiritual care provider. She has taught biblical and theological studies in both academic and church settings. Keen is passionate about making scholarship accessible in ways that positively impact everyday life. Founder of the Redwood Center for Spiritual Care and Education, she works to advance spiritual wellness and Christian formation. Keen earned her M.S. in education (counseling) from Western Oregon University, M.A. in exegetical theology from Western Seminary, and Th.M. in biblical studies from Duke Divinity School.

You can find Karen online at karenkeen.com and redwoodspiritualcare.com.

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Melissa is the pastor of Raleigh Mennonite Church, and a graduate of Duke University and Princeton Theological Seminary. She spent times studying in Israel/Palestine, Kenya, and England. Much of her formation took place in the L'Arche community of Portland, OR. Now she prefers the Eno River and her garden in Raleigh, NC. She is the chair of L'Arche North Carolina and a steering committee member in broad-based organizing in her county. Melissa's writing has appeared in Christian Century, Sojourners, Geez, Anabaptist Witness, The Bias, Faith&Leadership, and Anabaptist Vision.

You can connect with Melissa and her work by subscribing to her Substack newsletter.

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Chris Green is Professor of Public Theology at Southeastern University (Lakeland, FL), Bishop of the Diocese of St Anthony (CEEC), and Director for St Anthony Institute of Theology, Philosophy, and Liturgics. He is the author and editor of a number of books, including most recently All Things Beautiful: An Aesthetic Christology.

You can connect with Chris and his work on his website.

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Dr. Robert Chao Romero is associate professor in the UCLA dept of Chicana/o, Central American, and Asian American Studies; director of the Brown Church Initiative, Fuller Theological Seminary; an attorney; and author of the award-winning book Brown Church: Five Centuries of Latina/O Social Justice, Theology, and Identity. You can connect with him and find out more about his work on his website.

Dr. Jeff M. Liou is national director of theological formation for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship/USA and adjunct assistant professor of Christian ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California. He cofounded the Asian American Christian Collaborative and writes on race and justice, Asian American Christianity, theological ethics, and political theology. Ordained in the Christian Reformed Church, Liou has served as a campus minister, pastor, and university chaplain.

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On any given Sunday morning, a pastor can look over the 100 members of the congregation and see 25 women and 14 men who have been crippled by domestic violence and trauma--no matter the race or socio-economic group. The church is more than a hospital for sinners, it is also an emergency room for those who have been sinned against. But emergency rooms are not the place for long-term care. More is needed.

Dr. Christy Gunter wrote Survivor Care: What Religious Professionals Need to Know about Healing Trauma especially for this purpose. She writes for Christian mental health professionals and students, counselors, therapists, psychologists, and pastors, laying out a framework and shows why issues related to violence and abuse continue to plague our society.

Dr. Christy Gunter is the director of Client Services at an agency that serves families of Domestic and Family Violence in DFW. She's the author of "Survivor Care: What Religious Professionals Need to Know about Healing Trauma" and has her doctorate in Global Health and Wellness, a M. Div., and a Master of Social Work with over 500 additional hours of specialized training in violence, assault, trauma-informed care, and other related topics.

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Thomas Oord and Christy Gunter join us to talk about uncontrolling love from a theological and therapeutic perspective. They are both contributers to Love Does Not Control: Therapists, Psychologists, and Counselors Explore Uncontrolling Love.

Dr. Christy Gunter is the director of Client Services at an agency that serves families of Domestic and Family Violence in DFW. She's the author of "Survivor Care: What Religious Professionals Need to Know about Healing Trauma" and has her doctorate in Global Health and Wellness, a M. Div., and a Master of Social Work with over 500 additional hours of specialized training in violence, assault, trauma-informed care, and other related topics.

Thomas Jay Oord is a theologian, philosopher, and scholar of multi-disciplinary studies. Oord is a best-selling and award-winning author, having written or edited more than twenty-five books. Academic Influence ranks him among the most influential theologians in the 21st century. Oord directs a doctoral program at Northwind Theological Seminary and directs the Center for Open and Relational Theology. He is known for his research and writing on love, open and relational theology, science and religion, evil and power, and the implications of freedom and relationships for transformation.

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Janyne McConnaughey, PhD is a trauma survivor who draws from her life-long involvement in church ministries to train teachers and ministry workers at colleges and universities and serves on the Board for the Attachment & Trauma Network (ATN) and Distinguished Visiting Professor at Tabor College.

You can connect with Janyne and learn more about her work on her website janyne.org.

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Dr. Laura Anderson is a psychotherapist, trauma resolution coach and consultant, writer and educator specializing in complex and developmental trauma, dynamics of power and control and religious trauma based out of Nashville, TN.

You can connect with her work on her website drlauraeanderson.com.

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Kayla Craig's book Every Season Sacred is a weekly invitation to grow spiritually alongside our children. Blending thoughtful musings and practical resources, author Kayla Craig meets parents right where they are.

Kayla Craig is a former journalist who brings deep curiosity and care to her writing. She's the author of Every Season Sacred and To Light Their Way. With a poetic, prophetic voice, she created the popular Liturgies for Parents Instagram account, which Christianity Today named an "essential parenting resource." She also hosts the Liturgies for Parents podcast. Kayla's nuanced and accessible reflections, essays, and prayers are featured in various books, devotionals, and Bible studies. Kayla lives in a 115-year-old former convent in her Iowa hometown, where she hopes to create spaces of welcome alongside her four children, two dogs, and pastor-husband, Jonny.

Connect with Kayla:

• Visit Kayla Craig's website
• Kayla on Substack
• Kayla on Amazon
• Liturgies for Parents Podcast
• Find Kayla Craig on Facebook
• Follow Kayla Craig on Twitter
• Follow Kayla Craig on Instagram
• Follow Kayla Craig and Liturgies for Parents on Instagram
• Follow Kayla Craig and the Upside Down Podcast on Instagram

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• 
  

Eun K. Strawser (she/her) is the co-vocational lead pastor of Ma Ke Alo o (which means "Presence" in Hawaiian), non-denominational missional communities multiplying in Honolulu, HI, a community physician at Ke Ola Pono, and an executive leader at the V3 Movement, the church planting arm of the BGAV. Prior to transitioning to Hawaii, she served as adjunct professor of medicine at the Philadelphia College of Medicine and of African Studies at her alma mater the University of Pennsylvania (where she and her husband served with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship) after finishing her Fulbright Scholarship at the University of Dar es Salaam. She and Steve have three, seriously, amazing children.

You can connect with her work on her website centeringdiscipleship.com.

Also, you can help Strawser and her church community (Ma Ke Alo o) in their commitment to respond long-term to the devastation of the Hawaii wildfires by donating using the link below:

​https://impactmissionsmovement.org/hawaii-wildfires/​

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Fran is a founder of Faith & Grief Ministries, and leads bereavement workshops and spiritual retreats. She is a preacher and a keynote speaker at conferences.​

For twenty years, Fran served PC(USA) congregations in Texas, primarily in pastoral care and was affectionately called “Funeral Fran” by the love of her life and last husband, Bob. She has the courage to take deep finesses in duplicate bridge, stamina to be a member of four book clubs and a spirit for life that sparks contagious laughter.

You can reach out to Fran and find out more about her work on her website frantiltonshelton.com.

Show notes:

Here's Ryan Flanigan's poem that he read in the introduction to this episode:

Taking Sides or “On the Side of Good”

Too long have I had to live;

among the enemies of peace.

I am on the side of peace,

  but when I speak of it, they are for war.

- Psalm 120:6-7

Moderacy says don’t take a side—

Neither side is good in everything—

But the thing I’ve noticed in these times

Is, more times than not, one side is vile.

Now, the vile are clear to those who know

Peace, which no one sees with violent heart,

But the heart that seeks to bless instead

Is the steady one who stands with God.

One with God can love an enemy;

As for me, my gut goes after war,

‘Til my warring spirit finds that I

Am the iron-fisted one again.

Then, to gain the favor of the world—

Yea, the world that God the Good so loved—

My belov’d, self-seeking, vengeful hand

Must unhand the weapon that I bear.

For to bear the burden of a friend

Puts a friendly spin on what they see,

But to see a foe through God’s own eyes

Realizes them as one of us.

Furious as I am at your sin,

On my sin I heap much more contempt.

When I’m tempted to abandon love,

Still God’s love demands that I forgive.

So, I give my life to follow Christ

In the Christian act of making peace.

If two pieces cannot reconcile,

May I silo on the side of Good.

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Andrew Whitehead is a leading scholar on Christian nationalism in America and speaks widely on its effects within Christian communities. In this book, he shares his journey and reveals how Christian nationalism threatens the spiritual lives of American Christians and the church.

Whitehead shows how Christians harm their neighbors when they embrace the idols of power, fear, and violence. He uses two key examples--racism and xenophobia--to demonstrate that these idols violate core Christian beliefs. Through stories, he illuminates expressions of Christianity that confront Christian nationalism and offer a faithful path forward.

American Idolatry encourages further conversation about what Christian nationalism threatens, how to face it, and why it is vitally important to do so. It will help identify Christian nationalism and build a framework that makes sense of the relationship between faith and the current political and cultural context.

Andrew L. Whitehead (PhD, Baylor University) is associate professor of sociology at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis, where he codirects the Association of Religion Data Archives at the Center for the Study of Religion and American Culture. He is the coauthor of Taking America Back for God: Christian Nationalism in the United States, which won the 2021 Distinguished Book Award from the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion. Whitehead has written for the Washington Post, NBC News, Time, and Religion News Service and speaks frequently about Christian nationalism.

Connect with Andrew on Twitter or Instagram.

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In Chasing Proof, Finding Faith, Tom, now a rising young theoretical physicist, traces his journey to unexpected faith, through subsequent doubt and anxiety, and ultimately to a firmer, life-transforming allegiance to Jesus.

Tom Rudelius completed his undergraduate work at Cornell, earned a doctorate in physics at Harvard, and has conducted postdoctoral research at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey. Currently a postdoctoral researcher in theoretical physics at the University of California, Berkeley, Tom will begin a faculty position at Durham University (UK) in the fall of 2023. His research focuses on string theory, quantum field theory, and early universe cosmology. A man of faith and an avid sports fan, he is frequently requested to speak on topics related to science and faith. He is also on the board of the Mamelodi Initiative, a tutoring organization based in Mamelodi, South Africa.

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Dr. Cartagena is an Assistant Professor of Philosophy at Wheaton College (IL), where he teach courses on race, justice, and political philosophy. He also serves as the faculty advisor for Unidad Cristiana, a student group working to enhance Christian unity and celebrate Latina/o cultures. Connect with Dr. Cartagena at his website or on Twitter.

More info on critical race theory:

• Sojo article: Why Nathan Cartagena Teaches Critical Race Theory to Evangelicals
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 1
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 2
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 3
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 4

Connect with Gravity Leadership

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Dr. Cartagena is an Assistant Professor of Philosophy at Wheaton College (IL), where he teach courses on race, justice, and political philosophy. He also serves as the faculty advisor for Unidad Cristiana, a student group working to enhance Christian unity and celebrate Latina/o cultures. Connect with Dr. Cartagena at his website or on Twitter.

More info on critical race theory:

• Sojo article: Why Nathan Cartagena Teaches Critical Race Theory to Evangelicals
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 1
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 2
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 3
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 4

Connect with Gravity Leadership

• Leave us a message or ask a question about this or any other episode and we'll answer it on a future episode.
• Join our online community for free to get a curated list of interesting and edifying links each week, plus all kinds of other goodies.
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• Check out Gravity Leadership Academy, our 12-month training intensive for Christian leaders who want to bring lasting transformation to their culture.
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Dr. Cartagena is an Assistant Professor of Philosophy at Wheaton College (IL), where he teach courses on race, justice, and political philosophy. He also serves as the faculty advisor for Unidad Cristiana, a student group working to enhance Christian unity and celebrate Latina/o cultures. Connect with Dr. Cartagena at his website or on Twitter.

More info on critical race theory:

• Sojo article: Why Nathan Cartagena Teaches Critical Race Theory to Evangelicals
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 1
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 2
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 3
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 4

Connect with Gravity Leadership

• Leave us a message or ask a question about this or any other episode and we'll answer it on a future episode.
• Join our online community for free to get a curated list of interesting and edifying links each week, plus all kinds of other goodies.
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In this first episode, Dr. Cartagena helps us understand what we're actually talking about. In Parts 2 and 3, Dr. Cartagena will give us a brief history of white supremacy in the United States (using lots of original sources), and part 4 will be an episode on why this all matters for the church. Buckle up, because this is a master class on critical race theory.

Dr. Cartagena is an Assistant Professor of Philosophy at Wheaton College (IL), where he teach courses on race, justice, and political philosophy. He also serves as the faculty advisor for Unidad Cristiana, a student group working to enhance Christian unity and celebrate Latina/o cultures. Connect with Dr. Cartagena at his website or on Twitter.

More info on critical race theory:

• Sojo article: Why Nathan Cartagena Teaches Critical Race Theory to Evangelicals
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 1
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 2
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 3
• What is Critical Race Theory? by Nathan Cartagena Part 4

Connect with Gravity Leadership

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• Join our online community for free to get a curated list of interesting and edifying links each week, plus all kinds of other goodies.
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Jonny Morrison is a church planter, pastor, and writer known for his integration of creativity, spirituality, and culture. Jonny and his wife, Tory, live in Salt Lake City, where he co-pastors Missio Dei SLC church. Jonny graduated from Western Seminary with an MA in biblical and theological studies and received his doctorate of contextual theology from Northern Seminary. You can find more of Jonny's work at jonnyis.com.

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Rebekah Mui is a PhD Student in political, social, ethical and cultural thought (ASPECT) at Virginia Tech and researches postcolonial political theology, Christian anarcho-pacifism and Anabaptism. She is the editor of the Kingdom Outpost (http://kingdomoutpost.org) and publishes personal essays on http://medium.com/@rebekahmui and can be found on Twitter at @rebekahmui.

Dr. Laura Robinson (PhD, Duke) is the co-host the New Testament Review Podcast. You can follow her writings on her excellent Substack newsletter.

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1. How can I transform the culture in my church or organization to make it tov?
2. I believe my workplace has unhealthy values. How do I initiate change?
3. How do I unleash a culture of goodness in my ministry?
4. I’m not in a position of church leadership. What are some red flags that indicate a toxic culture, and what can I do if I see them?

These questions are answered in their new book Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture.

We talked with Scot and Laura about how churches can implement practices, establish priorities, and cultivate the Kingdom Gospel-centered qualities that resist abuse and cultivate goodness cultures.

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Megan Nilsen wrote Untangled Faith: How Honest Conversations with God Lead to Deeper Connections, Clarity, and Peace and created the "Beautiful Exchange Journaling" method to give people a safe, intentional space to sort out our thoughts through honest conversations with God. Megan is a speaker, author, life coach, and founder of the Beautiful Exchange Community. She offers Christ-centered coaching for those seeking kingdom alignment and strategy during a transitional season in faith, relationships, or vocational calling. She loves discovering what God put in the hearts of women that will help them walk in greater confidence, fulfillment, and purpose.

Show notes / links:

• Megan's website and podcast
• Discerning God's voice bookmark (free download)
• Megan's social media: Instagram | Facebook | LinkedIn
• Megan's books

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If we can’t discern the difference, we lump all expressions of anger together, and anger itself seems to be our main problem (we often call it “polarization”). We develop an allergy to anger that serves to hide injustice.

We wanted to talk in more depth about this issue, so we invited Jonny Rashid to join us to talk about anger, power, and the unavoidable political facets of the gospel.

Jonny Rashid is pastor of West Philadelphia Mennonite Fellowship, an Mennonite Church USA congregation in Philadelphia. He blogs at jonnyrashid.com. His book, Jesus Takes a Side, was published by Herald Press in 2022.

Show notes:

• Jonny's Substack
• Matt's Substack
• Ben's Substack

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Jeff Crosby is an organizational leader in the world of words, ideas, and book publishing. Currently president and CEO of a trade association of publishers, he has served in various executive roles, including as vice president at Ingram Book Company, and at IVP, a publisher in the Chicago area. He combines a background in journalism, leadership studies, and business with a love of language and insight from several fields in exploring faith and spirituality in light of applied practice. He and his wife of more than forty years, Cindy, have two grown children and six grandchildren.

Show notes

• Sign up for Ben's new Substack newsletter.
• Sign up for Matt's Substack newsletter, too.
• A Bright Sadness: Making Space for Grief and Joy (Aug 31 - Sep 2)

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1. Reparent yourself first.
2. Cultivate natural consequences.
3. Normalize being wrong and apologizing.
4. Delight in the diversity of your kids.
5. Define your family values.
6. Focus on heart transformation, not behavior modification.
7. Spend more time with your kids.
8. Get other adults involved in your kids' lives.

Show notes:

• Parenting For Heart Transformation Diagram

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In Our Unforming: De-Westernizing Spiritual Formation, Cindy Lee proposes that, in our increasingly diverse contexts, we need new, non-Western cultural ways of being formed--turning from linear to cyclical, from cerebral to experiential, and from individual to collective.

Cindy S. Lee is a spiritual director and aspiring mystic and proudly Taiwanese-American. She leads retreats in the areas of Christian mysticism and BIPOC centered spirituality. She completed a PhD in Practical Theology in the area of Spiritual Formation from Claremont School of Theology. She teaches as an adjunct professor in the areas of Christian Spirituality and Spiritual Direction. In her free time, she enjoys street art, coffee, and exploring the city.

You can connect with Cindy on Instagram.

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The result is their book Trauma-Informed Evangelism: Cultivating Communities of Wounded Healers, where they propose a new kind of evangelism—one based not on fear and coercion but on witnessing the unconditional love of God.

Charles Kiser is a pastor and theologian with Storyline Christian Community in Dallas, Texas, a network of missional communities he helped to form. He is passionate about creative expressions of Christian community, contemplative spirituality, and healing spiritual trauma. Kiser has a DMin in Contextual Theology from Northern Seminary and serves as a faculty member of Neighborhood Seminary.

Elaine Heath is the author of eleven books and numerous articles, the most recent books being Loving the Hell Out of Ourselves (and Others) (Birch & Alder, 2021), coauthored with her sister, Jeanine Heath-McGlinn. She formerly served as Dean of the Divinity School at Duke University, where she was also professor of missional and pastoral theology, and the McCreless Professor of Evangelism at Perkins School of Theology, Southern Methodist University. Heath cofounded two nonprofits: Missional Wisdom Foundation, and Neighborhood Seminary, a contextualized model of missional theological education for laity. Heath is an ordained elder in the United Methodist Church and served in pastoral ministry prior to her academic ministry. She currently lives with her husband at Spring Forest, an intentional Christian community and farm in rural North Carolina where she serves as abbess. You can connect with Elaine's work at elaineaheath.org.

Show notes

• The retreat we talk about in the intro: A Bright Sadness - making space for grief and joy Aug 31-Sep 2.

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Here are the 5 signs, along with their toxic analogues:

1. From power flowing up & in to power flowing down & out.
2. From reality distortion to "reality is complicated."
3. From loyalty culture to love culture.
4. From "unable to have a Kairos" to celebrating and honoring learning.
5. From conflict being mishandled to conflict being addressed in a trauma informed way.

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1. Talk parenting
2. Bribe parenting
3. Excuse parenting
4. Shame parenting
5. Hover parenting
6. Blind parenting
7. Backwards parenting

Show notes:

• Eric Minton: What our Pain Reveals About the Anxious Pursuit of the Good Life (podcast episode)
• It's Not You, It's Everything: What Our Pain Reveals about the Anxious Pursuit of the Good Life (book by Eric Minton)

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Casey's new book is The Gift of Restlessness: A Spirituality For Unsettled Seasons.

You can connect with Casey's writing and work at caseytygrett.com.

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Rev. Joel A. Bowman, Sr. is a native of Detroit, Michigan, and has been in ministry for 28 years. He is the founder and senior pastor of the Temple of Faith Baptist Church, in Louisville, Kentucky, and a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, working with military veterans. Joel is a seminar facilitator, freelance writer, poet, and thought leader in the areas of racism and racial trauma. His work has been published in numerous places, including the Louisville Courier-Journal, The Front Porch, The Witness, Three-Fifths Magazine, and Baptist News Global. Joel is married to Nannette Mitchell Bowman, and they have 3 children: Kayla, Katie, and Joel, Jr.

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Sheila's new book is She Deserves Better: Raising Girls to Resist Toxic Teachings on Sex, Self, and Speaking Up.

You can connect with all of Sheila's work on her website.

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Justin's new book Sacred Strides: The Journey to Belovedness in Work and Rest helps us learn that we are not tools in God's tool belt, valued only for our gifts and talents. Nor are we ascetics called to abandon "daily life" to find God in the desert. We are beloved by the One who holds all things together... including our need to work and our need to rest.

Justin McRoberts is an author, coach, speaker, and songwriter. For over 20 years, Justin has helped artists, ministers, and entrepreneurs find their way. From the stage, through his stories in books or during coaching sessions, he leans on his years of work and expertise as a minister and artist to help individuals and teams solve problems in their creative processes. When he’s not writing, speaking, or coaching, you can find him as the host of the At Sea Podcast. He lives in the East San Francisco Bay Area.

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Here are the 5 signs of a toxic leadership culture we talk about in this episode:

1. Reality distortion
2. Loyalty culture
3. Unable to have a Kairos
4. Power flows up/in rather than down/out
5. Conflict is mishandled

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We can face these issues by understanding our local context, listening and learning from a variety of voices, telling the truth about ourselves, and taking action in solidarity with those who are suffering.

The five challenges we talk about in this episode are:

1. Racism in the church and in the world
2. Sexism and patriarchy
3. Christian nationalism
4. Gender and sexual diversity
5. Religious trauma and spiritual abuse

Show notes

• The article we reference and discuss on today's episode: How to Address the Challenges the Church Faces Today

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Marty Solomon is a theologian, the president and director of discipleship for Impact Christian Ministries, and the creator and executive producer of The BEMA Podcast and author of Asking Better Questions of the Bible: A Guide For the Wounded, Wary, and Longing for More. He and his wife, Rebekah, live in Cincinnati with their two children. You can connect with Marty and his work on his website martysolomon.com.

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These phrases are often employed toward a Christian "third way" politics that seeks to affirm the truth that the church is not bound by the left/right binary of US politics, but this way of talking about how the church relates to politics doesn't actually work on the ground, and usually ends up being a kind of "centrism" that serves to keep the status quo in place.

Pastors Melissa Florer-Bixler and Shawn McCain Tirres join us to talk about why Christian centrism is attractive, and unpack the problems of pursuing Christian centrist/third way politics, and we discuss more helpful ways of framing the church's relationship to politics and living our faithful lives of discipleship to Jesus in the world.

Melissa Florer-Bixler is the pastor of Raleigh Mennonite Church, and a graduate of Duke University and Princeton Theological Seminary. She spent times studying in Israel/Palestine, Kenya, and England. Much of her formation took place in the L'Arche community of Portland, OR and she now the chair of L'Arche North Carolina and a steering committee member in broad-based organizing in her county. Melissa's writing has appeared in Christian Century, Sojourners, Geez, Anabaptist Witness, The Bias, Faith&Leadership, and Anabaptist Vision. She's the author of Fire by Night: Finding God in the Pages of the Old Testament, and How to Have an Enemy: Righteous Anger and the Work of Peace, which we've talked about with her on this podcast.

Shawn McCain Tirres is the founding rector of Resurrection Anglican Church in South Austin, Texas. Before that he helped plant Redeemer Anglican Church in Santa Cruz, California. His doctoral work focused on a practical sacramental missiology, and he currently serves on the Revelation 7:9 Task Force for Justice and Inclusion for the Diocese of Churches for the Sake of Others.

Show notes

• The Adam Joyce article we reference: If there is a “third way”, this isn’t it: How Christian centrists acquiesce to America’s broken political system

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Connect with Gravity Leadership

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Connect with Gravity Leadership

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This first episode deals with 5 common Christian myths about mental illness that need to be exposed and rejected if we're going to make any progress. Here are the myths we talk about:

1. Christians Can’t Be Mentally Ill
2. The Cure for Mental Illness Is Prayer
3. Depressed or Anxious Christians Are Sinful
4. Spiritually Healthy Christians Are Mentally Healthy
5. Mentally Ill Christians Just Need Biblical Counseling*

Show Notes:

• Our article that lists the 5 myths we discussed on today's episode: Mental Health & the Church

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Bradley Jersak is the Dean of Theology & Culture, a graduate studies program at St. Stephen's University in New Brunswick, Canada. He also serves as an editor at CWRmagazine and Clarion-Journal.com. Bradley and his wife, Eden, have lived in the Abbotsford area of British Columbia since 1988, where they served as pastors and church planters for twenty years. Bradley is the author of a number of nonfiction and fiction books, including A More Christlike Word,  A More Christlike God, A More Christlike Way, Her Gates Will Never Be Shut, Can You Hear Me?: Tuning in to the God Who Speaks, and The Pastor: A Crisis.

You can connect with Bradley and see what he's up to on his website: bradjersak.com.

Show Notes:

• We mentioned Bradley's article "The Meeting Place: Facilitating Encounters with God".

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Jason Porterfield joins us to talk about these questions, which are central to his book Fight Like Jesus: How Jesus Waged Peace throughout Holy Week, a day-by-day walk through Jesus’ final week that helps readers discover anew why he is called the Prince of Peace.

Jason Porterfield holds a masters in theology from Fuller Theological Seminary and has worked in Indonesia and Vancouver, CA with Servants, an international network of Christian communities living and ministering among the urban poor. His previous work includes the ebook 100 Early Christian Quotes on Not Killing which you can get a free copy of directly from his website JasonPorterfield.com.

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Kevin Sweeney was co-founder and lead pastor of Imagine Church—an urban church in Honolulu—for the past decade. He recently closed down this community. He is the host of podcast The Church Needs Therapy and is the author of the books, The Making of a Mystic: My Journey with Mushrooms, My Life as a Pastor, and Why It’s Okay For Everyone to Relax, and The Joy of Letting Go. He lives In Honolulu with his wife and co-founder of Imagine, Christine, and their two kids, True and Mikayla.

Show notes:

• Having the Mind of Christ Discipleship Workshop - Chesterton, IN - Jan 27-28

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His most recent book is Enjoying the Old Testament: A Creative Guide to Encountering Scripture.

Dr. Eric Seibert is a professor of OT at Messiah Univ and has served as the president of the Eastern Great Lakes Biblical Society. His most recent books are The Violence of Scripture: Overcoming the OT's Troubling Legacy and Disarming the Church: Why Christians Must Forsake Violence to Follow Jesus and Change the World.

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Lisa Weaver Swartz holds a PhD from the University of Notre Dame. She lives in the bluegrass region of Kentucky where she teaches sociology and writes about gender and religion. You can connect with her via her website.

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These are the themes of Bonnie's new book Untrustworthy: The Knowledge Crisis Breaking Our Brains, Polluting Our Politics, and Corrupting Christian Community. Drawing from her extensive experience in journalism and her training as a theologian, Kristian explores social media, political and digital culture, online paranoia, and the press itself. She explains factors that contribute to our confusion and helps Christians pay attention to how we consume content and think about truth. Finally, she provides specific ways to take action, empowering readers to avoid succumbing to or fueling the knowledge crisis.

Bonnie Kristian is an experienced journalist and author of Untrustworthy: The Knowledge Crisis Breaking Our Brains, Polluting Our Politics, and Corrupting Christian Community (2022) and A Flexible Faith: Rethinking What It Means to Follow Jesus Today (2018). She writes and edits opinion pieces on foreign policy, religion, criminal justice, urbanism, civil liberties, electoral politics, and more. Her column, "The Lesser Kingdom," appears in print and online at Christianity Today. A graduate of Bethel Seminary, Bonnie lives in Pittsburgh with her husband and twin sons.

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Podcast episodes mentioned:

• David Ford: A Fresh Encounter with Jesus Through John’s Gospel
• Marc Alan Schelske: Cultivating Spiritual Growth Through Journaling
• Deconstructing Spiritual Practices, Embracing New Paradigms (Book series beginning)
• KJ Ramsey: Stepping Through Fear Toward the Voice of Love
• Melissa Florer-Bixler: How to Have An Enemy
• Brandon O’Brien: How We Misread Scripture With Western Eyes

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• Are you interested in advertising on the Gravity Leadership Podcast? Contact Gino Curcuruto at gino@gravityleadership.com.

A Guatemalan immigrant, González draws from the Bible and her own experiences to examine why the traditional approach to immigration ministries and activism is at best incomplete and at worst harmful. By advocating for putting immigrants in the center of the conversation, González helps readers grow in discipleship and recognize themselves in their immigrant neighbors. Accessible to any Christian who is called to serve immigrants, this book equips readers to take action to dismantle white supremacy and xenophobia in the church. They will emerge with new insight into our shared humanity and need for belonging and liberation.

Karen González is a speaker, writer, storyteller, and immigrant advocate, who herself immigrated from Guatemala as a child. Karen is a former public school teacher and attended Fuller Theological Seminary, where she studied theology and missiology. For the last 13 years, she has been a non-profit professional, working for organizations that serve refugees and other immigrants. She wrote a book about her own immigration story and some of the immigrants found in the Bible: The God Who Sees: Immigrants:The Bible, and the Journey to Belong. Her second book is Beyond Welcome: Centering Immigrants in our Christian Response to Immigration. She also has bylines in Sojourners, Christianity Today, The Christian Century, and others. She is also the co-host of the Latina-focused podcast Cafe with Comadres. You can reach her via her website Karen-Gonzalez.com or on social media at @_karenjgonzalez.

You can connect with Karen on her website, Twitter, or Instagram.

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Dr. David Cramer is managing editor at the Institute of Mennonite Studies, sessional lecturer at Anabaptist Mennonite Biblical Seminary, and a teaching pastor at Keller Park Church in South Bend, IN.

Dr. Myles Werntz is associate professor of theology and director of Baptist studies at Abilene Christian University in Abilene, TX. He is the author or editor of several books, including Bodies of Peace.

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That's the theme of Middleton's book Abraham's Silence: The Binding of Isaac, The Suffering of Job, and How to Talk Back to God, which we discuss with him on today's episode.

J. Richard Middleton is professor of biblical worldview and exegesis at Northeastern Seminary at Roberts Wesleyan University and author of The Liberating Image and A New Heaven and a New Earth as well as co-author of Truth is Stranger than It Used to Be and The Transforming Vision.

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Willie Dwayne Francois III is senior pastor of Mt. Zion Baptist Church in Pleasantville, NJ, and president of the Black Church Center for Justice and Equality. He serves as assistant professor of liberation theology at NY Theological Seminary and directs a master's degree program at Sing Correctional Facility. He created the Public Love Organizing and Training (PLOT) Project and has served in various orgs engaging racial justice issues, including the Atlantic City chapter of Black Lives Matter, the Samuel DeWitt Proctor Conference, and the NJ Dept of State's MLK Jr. Commission. He's an active speaker and has written for HuffPost, Sojourners, The Hill, the Christian Century, and Religion Dispatches. 

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Marc is a reader, a thinker, a writer, and speaker. He's the teaching elder at Bridge City Community Church in Milwaukie, Oregon, where he gets to inviting people into a life of following Jesus more and more. You can connect with Marc and learn more about his work on his website marcalanschelske.com.

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We talk about how Christianity is not an idea in the first place, and therefore confuses, disrupts, and corrects any cultural ideology. The gospel doesn't just give us a new philosophy, but a new mind and a new life.

Chris Nye is a doctoral student at Duke University’s Divinity School and the author of Distant God (2016) and Less of More (2019). For fifteen years, he has served as a local church pastor and is currently on a sabbatical. His writing has appeared in the Washington Post, Christianity Today, and various other publications. He lives with his wife and son in Portland, Oregon.

You can connect with Chris and learn more about his work on his website: chrisnye.co.

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Craig Greenfield is the founder and director of Alongsiders International, a grassroots movement of young Christians reaching the world's poorest children. Originally from New Zealand, he has lived and worked for more than two decades in marginalized communities in Asia and North America. He is the author of The Urban Halo, Subversive Jesus, and Subversive Mission: Serving as Outsiders in a World of Need.

You can connect with Craig and learn more about his work on his website craiggreenfield.com.

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Dr. Drew Hart hails from Philly, and now lives in Harrisburg. He's the author of Trouble I've Seen: Changing the Way the Church Views Racism and Who Will Be a Witness: Igniting Activism for God's Justice, Love, and Deliverance. He's a Professor of Theology at Messiah University where he's the program director for Thriving Together: Congregations for Racial Justice.

Jarrod McKenna is an expert in nonviolent social change. He's the Founding CEO of Common Grace, a movement of people seeking Jesus and justice, and the former Director for Nonviolent Social Change for World Vision in the Middle East/Eastern Europe.

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Sarah Bessey is the author of the best-selling and critically acclaimed books Jesus Feminist (2013); Out of Sorts: Making Peace with an Evolving Faith (2015); and Miracles and Other Reasonable Things (2019). 

Along with her friends, the late Rachel Held Evans and Jim Chaffee, Sarah co-founded Evolving Faith. She now co-leads the community and conference alongside Jeff Chu. Sarah is also the co-host of The Evolving Faith Podcast and also serves as chair of the board for Heartline Ministries in Haiti. Based in Port au Prince, Heartline is committed to empowering Haitian families through complete maternal and infant health care, education, vocational training, and economic development.

Her writing has appeared in The Washington Post, The Huffington Post, The High Calling, Conversations Journal, ChurchLeaders.com, CT Women: Christianity Today’s Blog for Women, Today’s Christian Woman.

Sarah lives in Calgary, Alberta, Canada with her husband of twenty years have four children. She’s a pseudo-hermit bookworm, an enthusiastic knitter, tea-drinker, hockey fan, total hugger, endlessly fascinated with Jesus, an embarrassing fan-girl for the TV programmes Doctor Who and Schitt’s Creek.

Her latest collaborative book, The New York Times, Publisher’s Weekly, and Globe and Mail Bestseller A Rhythm of Prayer: A Collection of Meditations for Renewal.

You can connect with Sarah and learn more about her work on her website sarahbessey.com. 

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Andrew's most recent book is Streams in the Wasteland: Finding Spiritual Renewal with the Desert Fathers & Mothers.

Andrew Arndt is the lead pastor of New Life East, one of seven congregations of New Life Church in Colorado Springs. Prior to joining New Life’s team, he served as the lead pastor of Bloom Church, a network of house churches in Denver. He is the host of the Essential Church podcast, a weekly conversation designed to strengthen the thinking of church and ministry leaders. Andrew received his MDiv from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and is currently working on his DMin with Western Theological Seminary. He has written for Missio Alliance, Patheos, The Other Journal, and Mere Orthodoxy. He is the author of Streams in the Wasteland and All Flame. Andrew lives in Colorado Springs with his wife, Mandi, and their four kids.

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Angie Ward is a leadership author and teacher with nearly thirty years of experience in church, parachurch, and Christian higher education ministry. Angie is known for her genuine love for those in ministry, her down-to-earth style, and her unique ability to see and explain complex concepts and systems. Angie is an award-winning regular contributor to Christianity Today leadership publications and holds a PhD in Ministry Leadership from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. She currently serves as assistant director of the Doctor of Ministry program at Denver Seminary.

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Through sharing her own wilderness experience of spiritual abuse and religious trauma, therapist and author K.J. Ramsey helps us explore the landscape of fear, trauma, and faith by walking through Psalm 23 phrase by phrase in her new book The Lord is My Courage: Stepping Through the Shadows of Fear Toward the Voice of Love. K.J. helps us see that courage is not the absence of anxiety but the practice of trusting we will be held and loved no matter what.

K.J. Ramsey is a trauma-informed licensed professional counselor and author whose work offers space to see every part of our souls and stories as sacred. She holds degrees from Covenant College and Denver Seminary, and writes at the intersection of theology, psychology, and spiritual formation to guide us in recovering the rhythm of resilience through nervous system regulation and the wonder of communion with God. She and her husband Ryan, along with their two exceptionally cuddly dogs, Merton and Resa, live near Denver, Colorado.

You can connect with K.J. on her website, and on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

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Rev. Joel A. Bowman, Sr. is a native of Detroit, Michigan, and has been in ministry for 28 years. For the past 21 years, he has served as the founder and senior pastor of the Temple of Faith Baptist Church, in Louisville, Kentucky.

A Licensed Clinical Social Worker, Joel has 30 years of experience in the mental health field. Joel maintains a full-time practice, providing therapy to America’s military Veterans. Joel is a seminar facilitator, freelance writer, poet, and thought leader in the areas of racism and racial trauma. His work has been published in numerous places, including the Louisville Courier-Journal, The Front Porch, The Witness, Three-Fifths Magazine, and Baptist News Global.

Joel is married to Nannette Mitchell Bowman, and they have 3 children: Kayla, Katie, and Joel, Jr.

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